70-81 Camaro/Firebird sway bar comparisons

[F-Body International]

You guys just started shipping the the 2nd gen F-Body kits in January 2017? I'm thrown off because there's news/installation articles on the ridetech website about these kits in late 2015-early 2016...

[dontlifttoshift]

cheeznrice

The street grip setups use conventional end links, the Coil Over setups ship with Posi Links. Josh said you had a really old bar if it still had standard end links on it.....or that someone changed them. It's really not that hard to follow.

The problem you seem to be having, even after it was explained to you that the posi links were used on the air and coilover kits, is that you cherry picked a photo from the street grip system to make your point that the PTFB bar is superior because it has heim jointed end links and is "adjustable."

[F-Body International]

cheeznrice

The street grip setups use conventional end links, the Coil Over setups ship with Posi Links. Josh said you had a really old bar if it still had standard end links on it.....or that someone changed them. It's really not that hard to follow.

The problem you seem to be having, even after it was explained to you that the posi links were used on the air and coilover kits, is that you cherry picked a photo from the street grip system to make your point that the PTFB bar is superior because it has heim jointed end links and is "adjustable."

Why is using the website pictures a problem? Two people (myself as one of them) on this thread used the ridetech pictures.

I displayed the picture to acknowledge/show there is a difference between the regular links supplied with Street Grip kits and the Posi-Link was shown earlier in the thread.

[dontlifttoshift]

It's a problem because you are using that picture as an attempt to prove the point that the PTFB bar is superior because it includes heim joint endlinks instead of standard endlinks when you know that the Musclebar comes with PosiLinks. The only way to get oem style endlinks from ridetech for a 2nd is in a street grip kit, which is not the subject of this thread that you started, so move on from the endlinks and tell us why that 100 lb stiffer bar is better......because you haven't yet.

Bring some tech, overlay the bars maybe, so we do not have to infer how much better tire clearance may or may not be. Explain how to adjust the wonder bar, how much does the rate change if you move it an 1/8"....a 1/2".....how far can I stiffen the bar up before it binds with travel or the endlinks become ineffective because they are so far off of vertical.

[F-Body International]

It's a problem because you are using that picture as an attempt to prove the point that the PTFB bar is superior because it includes heim joint endlinks instead of standard endlinks when you know that the Musclebar comes with PosiLinks. The only way to get oem style endlinks from ridetech for a 2nd is in a street grip kit, which is not the subject of this thread that you started, so move on from the endlinks and tell us why that 100 lb stiffer bar is better......because you haven't yet.

Bring some tech, overlay the bars maybe, so we do not have to infer how much better tire clearance may or may not be. Explain how to adjust the wonder bar, how much does the rate change if you move it an 1/8"....a 1/2".....how far can I stiffen the bar up before it binds with travel or the endlinks become ineffective because they are so far off of vertical.

I gave numbers in my first post for inboard tire clearance.

In my I second post I stated, "I know I'm not as informative as some others on this forum but, again, hopefully this thread helps shed some light on differences between the 2nd Gen F-Body sway bars and helps others with what they're considering."

Again, I apologize if I'm not the most descriptive person. I'm not a magazine editor or a book writer. I also have no financial gain promoting or downplaying any specific brand in this thread. I've never raced on a track. I never went to tech school or built a tube chassis vehicle. I was just one person bringing MY Hotchkis sway bar to the table for comparison. I bought the PTFB sway bar afterwards.

Since you're on the attack towards what I have to say, can you say why a "weaker" hollow sway bar and non-adjustable end link with rubber donuts is better? Maybe no sway bar is better?

[NOT A TA]

Last June I did some measuring of the new "high clearance" PTFB bar compared to the hollow 1 3/8" bar I had before on my 70 Firebird. Haven't gotten the car back out on track yet so I can't comment on performance.

In the pic below you can see where the 275 40 17 tire was hitting my 1 3/8" OD hollow bar over a 10 year time period. It really only occurred in tight parking lots etc. and didn't cause any safety concern to me because it barely touched at full lock. I knew however that moving up to a 285 30 18 on a 10" wheel with 1/2" deeper backspacing that tire rub would certainly be an issue so I installed steering limiters which I may or may not still need to use depending how much clearance I gain with the new bar.



Pics below; I marked my old sway bar at the center of the two points on each side where the tire rubbed the most. Then I measured how far rearward the tire contacted the bar from the center line of the frame mounts and transferred marks to the new GEN II bar. Next used my tram gauge to measure the overall width of both bars at the contact points. The GEN II bar is about 1/2" narrower at the forward contact point and about 1" narrower at the rear point. This may not seem like much because it's split between both sides but if I had that extra 1/4" - 1/2" on each side the 275 17's probably wouldn't have rubbed. A small amount of the difference is caused by the difference between the outside diameters with the solid PTFB bar being 1-1/4" and the hollow being 1-3/8". More importantly seems to be that the GEN II bar has a sharper bend just outside of the frame which is almost 90 degrees. Keep in mind the contact points were with my tire/wheel setup on my car so those with different ride height, wheel/tire combos etc. might have a different contact area.

[dontlifttoshift]

....more talking in circles....

Since you're on the attack towards what I have to say, can you say why a "weaker" hollow sway bar and non-adjustable end link with rubber donuts is better? Maybe no sway bar is better?

And you still don't get it. The ridetech Musclebar comes with Posi Links. Repeat it to yourself as many times as you need to. As soon as you figure that out, you can go back to telling the world how awesome the new bar is and I will not care. But if you keep up with misinformation I will call you out on it. every. time.

[F-Body International]

And you still don't get it. The ridetech Musclebar comes with Posi Links. Repeat it to yourself as many times as you need to. As soon as you figure that out, you can go back to telling the world how awesome the new bar is and I will not care. But if you keep up with misinformation I will call you out on it. every. time.

You still don't get that I acknowledged this and even did so when I posted this thread last year. I haven't researched your profile post but I can only assume your animosity towards me on this thread must mean you're emotionally to the ridetech name or are associated with them somehow. I'm done with defending my points and chasing the last word with you on this subject.



Thank you NOT A TA for your tech post! Your tech threads and posts are some of the best out there. I have your Lab-14 sway bar and body mount reinforcements welded up on my frame. The designs you've come up with are much needed for us guys using factory 2nd gen F-body subframes!

Also, thank you Josh@Ridetech for not going on rant towards me like some others on here and other threads. I've had only positive communication with you here and some of the forums we both visit. I haven't personally used Ridetech products on my car but I have only positive things to say about how you represent the Ridetech brand online. Thanks again.

[CSG]

I gave numbers in my first post for inboard tire clearance.

In my I second post I stated, "I know I'm not as informative as some others on this forum but, again, hopefully this thread helps shed some light on differences between the 2nd Gen F-Body sway bars and helps others with what they're considering."

Again, I apologize if I'm not the most descriptive person. I'm not a magazine editor or a book writer. I also have no financial gain promoting or downplaying any specific brand in this thread. I've never raced on a track. I never went to tech school or built a tube chassis vehicle. I was just one person bringing MY Hotchkis sway bar to the table for comparison. I bought the PTFB sway bar afterwards.

Since you're on the attack towards what I have to say, can you say why a "weaker" hollow sway bar and non-adjustable end link with rubber donuts is better? Maybe no sway bar is better?

I'll touch on the weaker bar question. By adding roll resistance to the front you lesson the grip at that end. When a car understeers like most seem to then you want to reduce front roll stiffness.

[F-Body International]

I'll touch on the weaker bar question. By adding roll resistance to the front you lesson the grip at that end. When a car understeers like most seem to then you want to reduce front roll stiffness.

Then why not have no sway bars?

I've seen SOME of the tuner crowd likes to remove remove sways bars because they claim that they reduce inside tire grip in turns.

In the muscle car scene, I believe I find the opposite opinion...bigger, stronger and stiffer is better.

In the 70's and 80's there was the argument of stiff spring/soft sway bar vs soft spring/stiff sway bar.

Where are we at now these days on this subject?

[dontlifttoshift]

You still don't get that I acknowledged this and even did so when I posted this thread last year. I haven't researched your profile post but I can only assume your animosity towards me on this thread must mean you're emotionally to the ridetech name or are associated with them somehow. I'm done with defending my points and chasing the last word with you on this subject.

I am emotionally attached to facts. You did acknowledge and then chose to disregard it several times after that in order to to fit your narrative. Who writes your posts, Kellyanne Conway?

Then why not have no sway bars?

Some fast cars don't. Most do.

I've seen SOME of the tuner crowd likes to remove remove sways bars because they claim that they reduce inside tire grip in turns.

Front wheel drive cars, for that matter McPherson strut cars require different strategies. Not applicable here. None the less, the anti roll bar does reduce inside tire load as it fights the spring on that side.

In the muscle car scene, I believe I find the opposite opinion...bigger, stronger and stiffer is better

.

It is better, until it isn't. It is not a belief or theory, it's physics.

In the 70's and 80's there was the argument of stiff spring/soft sway bar vs soft spring/stiff sway bar.

Where are we at now these days on this subject?

I think that argument is much newer than that. The shock technology did not exist in the 80s to make the BBSS setup work like it does today. Most everything pro touring tends to lean towards the BBSS style as it rides better than a stiff spring setup on the street. As soft as most of these cars are sprung, I don't think the extra 100 pound of sway bar rate, which will be some number less at the wheel after figuring motion ratio, amounts to much for 95% of the 2nd gen F bodies on the road.

Still trying to reconcile the numbers from your test for lbs/inch of twist against the 816 lbs/in DSE rates their 2nd gen bar at.

[David Pozzi]

What is the range of adjustment of the PTFB bar in lbs? Was it tested at full stiff, full soft, or in-between? I'm trying to understand what the available stiffness settings would be.
End links that are more solid are a good thing, but they do make the end links shorter, which I don't like. It puts the end links at a greater angle sooner causing deflection.

[F-Body International]

What is the range of adjustment of the PTFB bar in lbs? Was it tested at full stiff, full soft, or in-between? I'm trying to understand what the available stiffness settings would be.
End links that are more solid are a good thing, but they do make the end links shorter, which I don't like. It puts the end links at a greater angle sooner causing deflection.

I unfortunately didn't get to the point of speaking with Dave on the variability in rate. This was pretty much a "bench press" competition. I think the ultimate test will be driving and track experience. The only other people I know with these sway bars are still in project/non-driving mode at the moment. Travis Hartwell did make a YouTube video a little while back and he was saying this new PTFB adjustable sway bar really helped minimize a lot of the "wandering" feeling he had with stock style end links. I have not spoken with about it though.

Another thing with these end links is that they are also height adjustable. I know you were saying that them being short is of concern but that's something I don't have the fullest understanding on. Maybe you could help inform me/us on this subject? I know you guys have a lot of experience on a few different setups for the 2nd gen cars.

On a side note, two days ago I picked up a '78 WS6 subframe that has the original GM WS6 sway bar on it. I will try to do further comparisons against this one and post soon. I know when I started this thread, all I had on hand was the Hotchkis I brought to the table.

[David Pozzi]

Strange that this popped up in my Facebook feed today.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nxS4l3...ature=youtu.be

[F-Body International]

Strange that this popped up in my Facebook feed today.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nxS4l3...ature=youtu.be

I saw that one last year. Kind of "sways" everything in the opposite direction there. The thing I would point at is that they used a solid bar that unfortunately has thin ends on it. I'd love to have seen that comparison be made using a real GM sway bar but I guess it's more realistic to use a reproduction piece.

[Shawn01754]

How about subframe connectors? Whos got the best bang for the buck. And should the connectors be 1 piece or 2? Maybe this should be a different thread?

[F-Body International]

How about subframe connectors? Whos got the best bang for the buck. And should the connectors be 1 piece or 2? Maybe this should be a different thread?

Interesting questions sir. It all depends on what you want to do. I like Hotchkis, PTFB and DSE for different reasons.

I like Hotchkis for their weld-in-back and bolt-in-front design. Makes for nice removable setup.

I like PTFB for the low cost and low profile design that can be bolted or welded in. Simplest install of the bunch I mention here.

DSE has an awesome design strength-wise but it's a labor intensive install because you have to cut through the floor, position and weld everything in. You have to be decently skilled to install them.