Built EFI Pontiac 400 with Super T10

[F-Body International]

Curious to see what some would think my engine and trans TOGETHER is worth. It'd be with all accessories, starter, transmission, air filter, computer, oil pan, etc. My engine has about 10k-15k miles on a great rebuild and about 5k miles on the trans. FAST EFI equipment, alternator, headers, intake, valve covers...brand new. I'm sure some of the tech guys know the FAST XFI 2.0 has built in traction control, 4 stage nitrous control, data logging, etc. I know for starters, people have payed a couple thousand just for the factory W72 engine/trans setup this started as. This is the last year you could order the 400 engine and it only came manual transmission. Throw out numbers.

I added up all the EFI parts on Jeg's and it's roughly $5,000 for the intake, ecu, ignition, wiring, throttle body, etc. This is a full blown racing system that can run on the street. When it was carbed a few years ago, it was faster than the occasional stock LS1 F-Body and 4.6 Mustang. Definitely was no slouch by any means at all.



Here some specs on the engine...
Bored +.030" and decked PWH 1979 400 block (one of the strongest factory Pontiac blocks you can build).
Keith Black Forged pistons, ARP rod bolts, stock rods, and stock crank.
6X-4 heads milled to 87cc and screw in studs installed, Lunati flat tappet cam, stock rockers, etc.
BOP Engineering valley pan with no pcv provision (pcv relocated to valve covers) and BOP steel core rubber valve cover gaskets.
Aluminum water pump.
Custom built late-model high-output alternator with adapter plug for early GM vehicles.
Flowtech headers port matched with o2 sensor bung already installed.
Edelbrock Super Victor EFI intake manifold with letter smoothed off and painted factory GM blue.
Matching Edelbrock fuel rails powder coated black
55lb EV1 injectors.
IAT, MAP, and H2O sensors from FAST
FAST fuel pressure regulator.
FAST dual sync distributor, FAST E6 igntion box and FAST E92 coil.
FAST 4500 Dominator throttle body (2000cfm+ 4 barrel and port matched).
FAST XFI 2.0 ECU with the matching FAST fuel injector harness, FAST chassis harness and FAST fuel pump/fan harness.

Specs on transmission...
Hays street clutch
Full trans rebuild recently.
Original 1970's Hurst Competition shifter
All brand new gears (2.64 1st gear).
Main shaft carrier (midplate between tail housing and main case) upgraded to steel.







Here you can see how I have the efi system mounted in the car...









Hard to notice but the FAST E92 is mounted on the gas pedal and spark plug wire passes the firewall...

[somebody]

IMO, the EFI is worth more than the motor. nothing all that great about the motor itself without the EFI. to the right buyer sky is the limit, but realistically i'd separate it, start at $1600 for the motor, $900 for the trans, not sure about the EFI but i'd ask 80% of what you have invested in it. your location can also factor greatly into your asking price. that's all just my opinion. are you on performance years site, or it's new name maxperformanceinc? they will give you different opinions i'm sure, and about 200 pm's asking "how much for the EFI?"

[rohrt]

looks like it would have been a really cool setup IMO.

[F-Body International]

looks like it would have been a really cool setup IMO.

Don't worry, I'm still working on the car. It's not stopping. If someone offered the right price, I would probably swap in an LS1/T56 into the car from a '01-'02 F-Body just because it came from a Pontiac Trans Am. For now, the rear end is about to get rebuilt and geared for my 4 speed trans.

[boss_hoss]

How do you like the Pontiac engine with the efi set up you have as far as reliability, economy and power are concerned. I'm looking at a similar kit from butler performance for my 69 Pontiac but haven't seen anybody running one.

[F-Body International]

How do you like the Pontiac engine with the efi set up you have as far as reliability, economy and power are concerned. I'm looking at a similar kit from butler performance for my 69 Pontiac but haven't seen anybody running one.

Everything you see on my engine is pretty much the ultimate setup for Pontiac engines in my opinion. If you use Holley or any other brand, you end up making it work with an MSD ignition or some other source for parts. I'm not saying Holley, for instance, is bad but FAST actually supplies you a one stop shop for all your parts to get it right. The only thing mine lacks is a true crank sensor but with the dual sync distributor, it reads and sends a crank/cam signal anyways. I went the distributor route because it drops in the engine like normal and I don't have to play around with pulley spacing or sensor clocking. FAST makes an adapter plug to run an MSD crank sensor for those interested in a true crank sensor. I'll probably end up getting the MSD crank sensor and using the distributor as a cam sync eventually but again, the FAST dual sync provides the computer crank signal through cam positioning. FAST XFI 2.0 can run traction control, 4 stages of power adders, 2 fuel injectors per cylinder, etc. FAST even makes a marine version of this ecu for boat applications.

For reliability, economy and power, what you see on my engine is as good as it gets for an old engine. Sequential port injection yields the most fuel economy for any engine period. Reliability is debatable amongst the carb vs efi people so that I can leave that up to anyone else's personal opinion. All new cars and most motorcycles today run by computer control. An aftermarket efi system could technically be more reliable than a factory setup because the efi like FAST, Holley or BS3 does not have to deal with emissions control. This can also be said like taking a factory carb that was supposed to operate with emissions equipment and comparing it to something like a Holley or Quickfuel. Carbs are cool and the flat out work even with the qwerks many have issues with. Most people's downfall with carbs is that they don't use dataloggers to help them tune to optimum performance (it's not just about idle speed and mixture screws). As for performance, I will not comment because there is just too many articles you'll find on the internet where the carb made more power or the efi made more power or they were the same. I will say that with efi, you gain easier control of power and efi makes compensation at the times it needs to.

Lengthy response but hopefully this answers your debate on where you're headed with your project. Good luck!

[boss_hoss]

How do you like the Pontiac engine with the efi set up you have as far as reliability, economy and power are concerned. I'm looking at a similar kit from butler performance for my 69 Pontiac but haven't seen anybody running one.

Everything you see on my engine is pretty much the ultimate setup for Pontiac engines in my opinion. If you use Holley or any other brand, you end up making it work with an MSD ignition or some other source for parts. I'm not saying Holley, for instance, is bad but FAST actually supplies you a one stop shop for all your parts to get it right. The only thing mine lacks is a true crank sensor but with the dual sync distributor, it reads and sends a crank/cam signal anyways. I went the distributor route because it drops in the engine like normal and I don't have to play around with pulley spacing or sensor clocking. FAST makes an adapter plug to run an MSD crank sensor for those interested in a true crank sensor. I'll probably end up getting the MSD crank sensor and using the distributor as a cam sync eventually but again, the FAST dual sync provides the computer crank signal through cam positioning. FAST XFI 2.0 can run traction control, 4 stages of power adders, 2 fuel injectors per cylinder, etc. FAST even makes a marine version of this ecu for boat applications.

For reliability, economy and power, what you see on my engine is as good as it gets for an old engine. Sequential port injection yields the most fuel economy for any engine period. Reliability is debatable amongst the carb vs efi people so that I can leave that up to anyone else's personal opinion. All new cars and most motorcycles today run by computer control. An aftermarket efi system could technically be more reliable than a factory setup because the efi like FAST, Holley or BS3 does not have to deal with emissions control. This can also be said like taking a factory carb that was supposed to operate with emissions equipment and comparing it to something like a Holley or Quickfuel. Carbs are cool and the flat out work even with the qwerks many have issues with. Most people's downfall with carbs is that they don't use dataloggers to help them tune to optimum performance (it's not just about idle speed and mixture screws). As for performance, I will not comment because there is just too many articles you'll find on the internet where the carb made more power or the efi made more power or they were the same. I will say that with efi, you gain easier control of power and efi makes compensation at the times it needs to.

Lengthy response but hopefully this answers your debate on where you're headed with your project. Good luck!

Thanks for the info. I definitely think a sequential FAST efi system is in my future.

[F-Body International]

IMO, the EFI is worth more than the motor. nothing all that great about the motor itself without the EFI. to the right buyer sky is the limit, but realistically i'd separate it, start at $1600 for the motor, $900 for the trans, not sure about the EFI but i'd ask 80% of what you have invested in it. your location can also factor greatly into your asking price. that's all just my opinion. are you on performance years site, or it's new name maxperformanceinc? they will give you different opinions i'm sure, and about 200 pm's asking "how much for the EFI?"

Well sir, I posted up the same post from here like suggested on PY and not even 1 pm on the efi. I'm continuing to work on the car. There won't be any separating just to sell parts. I would consider selling it all together so I could start a factory GM appearing F-Body LS1/T56 install but I probably would never get an offer anywhere near to where I'm at in my current engine/trans. I don't want to be saying my car is fast but when I had a carburetor on it, my car was faster than a couple stock LS1 F-Body, 5.0 and 4.6 Mustangs I did a few roll races with.

[somebody]

i saw it, didn't get much response. i guess since it's not technically "for sale" people just went right on past it. there's several people who like to post the most obvious stuff and i'm surprised they didn't put in their $.02...

[Decline]

I'm 97% sure you could bolt your FAST intake to an LS1 and run that engine the same way as the pontiac.(edit*I was misinformed about the FAST manifold. It will NOT work with LS heads)

That way you wouldn't have to rewire the whole car or worry about making/buying a custom LS harness and getting the stock ECU unlocked/tuned.
The engine and trans literally become a "bolt on" and you get to keep the "old school" look
This is what I plan to do eventually and the main reason I bought a XFI sportsman kit

Otherwise you'll most likely have to resort parting it out to recoup all the money you have in that system. IMO The EFI is way more valuable/desirable than engine/trans

[andrewb70]

Thanks for the info. I definitely think a sequential FAST efi system is in my future.

The Holley HP ECU can work with just about any ignition system imaginable. On top of that, when you get tired of the Pontiac engine and want to go with a LS swap, all you need to do is get the LS harness and the HP ECU will plug-n-play with either a Gen 3 or Gen 4 LS engine.

Andrew

[F-Body International]

The Holley HP ECU can work with just about any ignition system imaginable. On top of that, when you get tired of the Pontiac engine and want to go with a LS swap, all you need to do is get the LS harness and the HP ECU will plug-n-play with either a Gen 3 or Gen 4 LS engine.

Andrew

Andrew is right about the Holley HP. It's a nice system. I would compare FAST XFI more to a Holley Dominator ecu though. The cool thing about FAST XFI is that you can start with a base model ecu then have upgraded for built in traction control, data logging, 16 injectors, trans control, etc. With Holley, you need an external Davis box for traction control or the Dominator in order to control an electronic trans or monitor multiple inputs/outputs. The FAST XFI system that I have has been around longer but it does most of what Holley gets marketed for. Holley is newer so there is the new hype along with the big Holley name. I believe FAST XFI was the start of dry nitrous application but Holley has been marketed for it more so these days.

If anyone wants to read the history on this stuff, check out articles on John Meany. He developed most of the aftermarket efi systems we see today and now has Big Stuff 3 (BS3).
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/0704gm-mr-efi/

[andrewb70]

As I see on the FAST website, the base XFI doesn't have traction control or trans control. The trans control is an add on box, as is the XIM module for spark control to a LS engine. The traction control can be had on the XFI but that's a different box than the base ECU.

So there are subtle difference depending on what's important to individuals. We all like with what we are familiar with. I have a Dominator on my Cougar and you'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. The box rocks. I have a LS with dual DBW throttle bodies, dual wide bands, and a digital dash that handles all my gauge functions.

Andrew

[F-Body International]

As I see on the FAST website, the base XFI doesn't have traction control or trans control. The trans control is an add on box, as is the XIM module for spark control to a LS engine. The traction control can be had on the XFI but that's a different box than the base ECU.

So there are subtle difference depending on what's important to individuals. We all like with what we are familiar with. I have a Dominator on my Cougar and you'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands. The box rocks. I have a LS with dual DBW throttle bodies, dual wide bands, and a digital dash that handles all my gauge functions.

Andrew

Believe me, I was very close to using Holley for my car. I was pretty much set on FAST or Holley but then I randomly found a deal on the XFI ecu I have pictured brand new in the box off someone's project. You're right that you need the external XIM for LS engines and electronic trans control boxes. My car has neither electronic transmission or LS currently so the XFI ecu works in my situation.

FAST offers their customers service to upgrade the base XFI ecu to traction control ($420), 16 injectors ($189), or data logging. Send them your base model XFI ecu (red case) and they return in the updated "Intelligent Traction Control" black case. Those that have the original XFI from 2005 can even have the 2.0 software emailed and they can update the ecu (Holley offers the same service for free).

The one thing I didn't care for with Holley is that they don't have an option to upgrade the HP ecu to a Dominator. They're two completely difference cases all together. It's funny now seeing that even though FAST XFI and Holley does the same thing, the options for these two systems are approached in completely opposite manner. FAST XFI has the built in traction control option but Holley needs the external Davis box. Holley Dominator has built in trans control but FAST needs an external box for trans control. The list goes on.