3pt belt vs 5pt harness

[MonzaRacer]

I actually saw a company building oval aircraft tubing cages, bet the mandrels are salty!

[shownomercy]

Unless seat back and mount fails completely head can't hit bar. But as pointed out already, have you seen whats under the plastic and headliner, metal frame.. Regardless, I under stand that aspect and have come to terms with running +135mph means roll bar. (actually means cage but F that noise)

My question stems from the NHRA not mandating a HANs or similar, but saying a helmet/five point are enough. Whiplash city no?

So interpolating from that, a 5pt without a heavy helmet is prob fine when compared to a sloppy three point from 95.

IDK.

[72BBSwinger]

The NHRA doesn't account for getting tboned by another car.

[shownomercy]

The NHRA doesn't account for getting tboned by another car.

Assuming you are saying that the 5pt will hold you in place for the car to massage you vs the 3pt allowing you to move out of the way?

[72BBSwinger]

I'm saying NHRA rules don't apply to a street or road course car. You get tboned, where is our heads gonna go? Is a 5 point gonna make it better?

[shownomercy]

I'm saying NHRA rules don't apply to a street or road course car. You get tboned, where is our heads gonna go? Is a 5 point gonna make it better?

Yea, thats what I was getting at, 5pt and roll bar stuff on the street. Any studies or science behind its use in DD environments.

In the end of the day, car has both, and I rock the OEM belt for DD use.

[MonzaRacer]

Well I can tell you one thing, every emergency responder says if you wear a racing harness you still have a seat belt on.
And honestly many say a they wish people were wearing racing harness.
Do as you please. It is all about choices, choose what you want.

[HandOverFist]

A little different tact - My next build will be sporting bucket seats, two retired cam-loc harnesses from our race cars for both passenger and driver. There will be seat back support bars anchored to the frame and the shoulder belts will be attached to those. My theory is the seat belt was originally intended to just keep the occupant inside the vehicle during an incident...the cross belt came later to help somewhat with forward motion of the upper torso. Only so much these systems can do and not much has changed with them in 45 years. Of course the additional items like collapsible steering columns, air bags and engineered crumple zones have improved our lot, but the severity of the incident is still the key to survival. It would take much more than I have thus far seen or heard to dissuade me from employing the 5-point belts in my daily street machine. Btw, no roll bar in this one.

[parsonsj]

It would take much more than I have thus far seen or heard to dissuade me from employing the 5-point belts in my daily street machine.

Dale Earnhardt. His death was caused by a skull fracture caused by his head getting whipped because of his 5 pt harness holding his body firmly in place, but allowing his head too much freedom of movement. His neck just wasn't up to the job. Now if you are using a HANS device with your race harness, then you're good. If not, that 5 pt harness can kill you.

[HandOverFist]

Dale Earnhardt. His death was caused by a skull fracture caused by his head getting whipped because of his 5 pt harness holding his body firmly in place, but allowing his head too much freedom of movement. His neck just wasn't up to the job. Now if you are using a HANS device with your race harness, then you're good. If not, that 5 pt harness can kill you.

Hmm...that sounds just a little to tidy of a statement. The HANS is just one more recently added layer and probably a reasonable one...for racing purposes. Let's see...how many decades has Nascar been operating with drivers using conventional restraint systems? How many deaths can you cite in that time period attributable to these supposedly "death trap" harnesses? Are you really trying to equate the Daytona incident to everyday street vehicle operation? It almost appears you are suggesting all would have been peachy if he had been wearing a 3-point harness instead of the 5/6-point...really? Maybe you are trying to advocate the HANS for our daily driver...good luck with that.

Just a reminder of actual events... http://espn.go.com/classic/s/2001/0223/1104412.html

I will add this only because the thread got me thinking about the past. I am/was a huge Dale fan throughout his career and recall the day of his death just like it was yesterday. I have not watched another Nascar race since that sad day. I remember the clamor about Sterling Marlin being responsible for the mishap...I knew immediately that was a false emotional response. Sterling was driving as he always did...it was Dale who changed his routine. Dale knew Sterling had the car to win that race and he went out of character to block for his team cars instead of racing to win as he had done his entire life. Simply put Dale killed Dale...probably re-opened a can of worms with that statement, but it is what it is.

[parsonsj]

Sorry. I'm saying a 5 pt harness isn't safe for street use.

YMMV (from wikipedia):

Basilar skull fractures are a common cause of death in many motor racing accidents. Drivers who have died as a result of basilar skull fractures include Formula One driver Roland Ratzenberger; Indianapolis 500 drivers Bill Vukovich Sr., Tony Bettenhausen Sr., Floyd Roberts, and Scott Brayton; NASCAR drivers Dale Earnhardt Sr., Adam Petty, Tony Roper, Kenny Irwin Jr., Neil Bonnett, John Nemechek, J.D. McDuffie, and Richie Evans; CART drivers Jovy Marcelo, Greg Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez; and ARCA drivers Blaise Alexander and Slick Johnson.

To prevent this injury, all major motor sports sanctioning bodies now mandate the use of head and neck restraints, such as the HANS device. To this day the HANS device has multiple times demonstrated its life saving abilities. Examples of drivers surviving thanks to the HANS device are Jeff Gordon at the 2006 Pocono 500, Robert Kubica at the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix, and Max Verstappen at the 2015 Monaco Grand Prix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture

[BMR Sales]

Dale Earnhardt. His death was caused by a skull fracture caused by his head getting whipped because of his 5 pt harness holding his body firmly in place, but allowing his head too much freedom of movement. His neck just wasn't up to the job. Now if you are using a HANS device with your race harness, then you're good. If not, that 5 pt harness can kill you.

That was a Perfect (un-perfect) storm of Belts not being installed correctly, not wearing a HANS and wearing an Open-Face Helmet. Because his belts were not installed properly, his body shifted and was Not held in place.

[j-c-c]

Sorry. I'm saying a 5 pt harness isn't safe for street use.

YMMV (from wikipedia):

Basilar skull fractures are a common cause of death in many motor racing accidents. Drivers who have died as a result of basilar skull fractures include Formula One driver Roland Ratzenberger; Indianapolis 500 drivers Bill Vukovich Sr., Tony Bettenhausen Sr., Floyd Roberts, and Scott Brayton; NASCAR drivers Dale Earnhardt Sr., Adam Petty, Tony Roper, Kenny Irwin Jr., Neil Bonnett, John Nemechek, J.D. McDuffie, and Richie Evans; CART drivers Jovy Marcelo, Greg Moore, and Gonzalo Rodriguez; and ARCA drivers Blaise Alexander and Slick Johnson.

To prevent this injury, all major motor sports sanctioning bodies now mandate the use of head and neck restraints, such as the HANS device. To this day the HANS device has multiple times demonstrated its life saving abilities. Examples of drivers surviving thanks to the HANS device are Jeff Gordon at the 2006 Pocono 500, Robert Kubica at the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix, and Max Verstappen at the 2015 Monaco Grand Prix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilar_skull_fracture

With this logic, I could also say all the drivers listed above, including Dale, were simply going too fast, causing basilar skull fracture on their accidents. Which could then imply, since street speeds are magnitudes of force lower then racing speeds, and helmets are not in place, additionally stressing the neck, a 5pt may not be such a hazard.

[parsonsj]

With this logic, I could also say all the drivers listed above, including Dale, were simply going too fast, causing basilar skull fracture on their accidents. Which could then imply, since street speeds are magnitudes of force lower then racing speeds, and helmets are not in place, additionally stressing the neck, a 5pt may not be such a hazard.

Sure. I get that argument. And a helmet does increase mass attached to the neck.

It must be acknowledged that holding both shoulders firmly in place places additional stress on the neck and base of the skull in the event of an accident. Modern 3 pt systems disperse force through the spine by allowing the torso to twist and come partially forward, and if equipped, the air bag can make a difference helping keep the head upright.

Using a 5 pt harness without a HANS is not recommended by any racing safety board. Doing that on the street seems unwise, especially if you are doing that in a modern car with a 3 pt system and an air bag. Now if you are in pre-69 car with just a lap belt, then the whole argument changes.

[TheJDMan]

With this logic, I could also say all the drivers listed above, including Dale, were simply going too fast, causing basilar skull fracture on their accidents. Which could then imply, since street speeds are magnitudes of force lower then racing speeds, and helmets are not in place, additionally stressing the neck, a 5pt may not be such a hazard.

I would have to agree.

[HandOverFist]

Yes, in my case it is a pre-69 car equipped with lap belts only, no collapsible column and no engineered crumple zones. I readily admit I could be wrong on this subject, but I am willing to bet my life on the 5-point in this instance. I have no illusions of superior safety using a 5-point harness in my street machine, but I do have the utmost confidence in being securely strapped in and not rattling around the interior or being thrown from the vehicle in the event of a severe incident. I am in no way advocating or recommending this to anyone...I'm just stating my opinions based on limited experiences and have yet to be convinced from arguments against it.

Thanks to JD for the Schroth link...I had no idea there was a DOT harness solution out there. I may forgo the planned bar install and just use one of their systems. I will be further ahead at any rate by removing the bench seat and employing some modern buckets with headrests.

[parsonsj]

The Schroth 4 pt system is a good choice. (I ran that in my II Much Nova). The Schroth 4 pt system has DOT approval because it allows the torso to twist by having a small loop of harness on one side. That stretches during an accident and helps to disperse force through the spine. In other words, it has DOT approval because it behaves similarly to a 3 pt system and doesn't pin both shoulders to the seat.

However, it is not a good choice on the track, because the "release" mechanism in the shoulder belt won't hold a HANS device properly in place.

From Schroth: (they call their inboard shoulder strap loop "ASM")
The patented SCHROTH asm® system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asm® is the acronym for anti submarining. The risk to submarine (sliding underneath the lap belt), a well known phenomenon during frontal impacts, is significantly reduced by the asm® safety system. The energy converter is located in the inboard shoulder belt. Therefore make sure you purchase left and/or right harnesses. Severe injuries or death are possible using 4-point harnesses without the SCHROTH asm® safety system or an anti-sub strap. SCHROTH harnesses designed for use on public roads (FE push button models) or those likely to be used as 4-points come with the asm® safety system. The performance of the SCHROTH asm® safety system has also been positively tested in conjunction with airbags.

Current Head And Neck Supports (HANS®) provide further reduction of head deceleration and neck bending.

The asm® system on all SCHROTH Rallye and QuickFit belts - excluding the new QuickFit Pro - is not compatible the with HANS®. Only belts having a center RFR Cam lock can be used with HANS®.

We recommend that only non asm® belts be used in competition harnessbelts.

Racing harnesses without asm® must be worn with an anti-sub strap!

[HandOverFist]

Lot's of information on the Schroth site for sure. My '67 El Camino will never see any serious track usage due to my resistance in installing a roll bar/cage and I certainly won't be wearing a HANS device on the street lol. The positive side of these is that it will negate the requirement on my part to construct any bracketry in order to attach a conventional harness system. Another plus will be the 2" webbing instead of the usual bulky/stiff 3" variety...no doubt it will be a huge improvement in comfort for extended use.



This truck may see an occasional fun AutoX or a blast down the 1/4-mile from time to time, but for the most part will be a street machine. I've learned over the years it's pretty much an exercise in futility to transform a production vehicle into race trim...you can make them better, but they are never quite right for the task. Btw, the ASM designation (the way I read it) does nothing special to protect the spine or any other part of the body. It merely means it is designed to allow the body to twist a certain amount which by design tightens the lap belts preventing submarining.