Speedtech AFX spindle vs stock spindle+tall Howe balljoints

[jerome]

Would you rather have regular adjustable perch coilovers or coilovers with a fixed spring perch and use shims?

[TLWiltman]

Killer69,

I'm an F-body guy, but might be able to shed some light on a different answer to your question. I think some of it might very well be a variation of "because the cool kids have it". In my case, I've looked at them because the intent of my car is as a true no-compromise dual purpose car (road course and CP autocross). Both disciplines tend to require a little bit different geometry and a little bit different suspension settings. I'd imagine, if I wanted to take said car on the street, there'd even be yet another set of suspension settings and geometry adjustments to make. Given the tools we have available, I can see adjustments being much more simple with an adjustable arm. Granted, an adjustable arm is only one of several options at this point, but that is the appeal.

[killer69]

Killer69,

I'm an F-body guy, but might be able to shed some light on a different answer to your question. I think some of it might very well be a variation of "because the cool kids have it". In my case, I've looked at them because the intent of my car is as a true no-compromise dual purpose car (road course and CP autocross). Both disciplines tend to require a little bit different geometry and a little bit different suspension settings. I'd imagine, if I wanted to take said car on the street, there'd even be yet another set of suspension settings and geometry adjustments to make. Given the tools we have available, I can see adjustments being much more simple with an adjustable arm. Granted, an adjustable arm is only one of several options at this point, but that is the appeal.

THIS IS GET.....
I have been to numerous driving events and have yet to see anyone doing alignments in the pits. now it is possible I missed seeing it but you get my point. most on here are street cars lets face it. we get so many calls from customers who are at the Alignment shop and the guy with the wrench in has hand has no idea how to set the caster to 5 deg or even why would you would want that. it would be interesting to see THAT guy do an alignment with theses arms.
I was just trying to gauge the thought process more than anything.

[csouth]

I kind of think this discussion has gotten off track. I feel the SPC and the fixed uppers both have their place. I know they were brought up when the OP mentioned he was using them combined with the screw in BJ. I think what we really want to know tall spindle w\standard bj vs short spindle w\tall bj....

[Nicks67GTO]

THIS IS GET.....
I have been to numerous driving events and have yet to see anyone doing alignments in the pits. now it is possible I missed seeing it but you get my point. most on here are street cars lets face it. we get so many calls from customers who are at the Alignment shop and the guy with the wrench in has hand has no idea how to set the caster to 5 deg or even why would you would want that. it would be interesting to see THAT guy do an alignment with theses arms.
I was just trying to gauge the thought process more than anything.

Right....again for me it was
- I had 0 experience in performance handling and I read Marc's book which got me to call.
- Marc went way the heck out of the way to provide excellent info and customer service so I took his advice and bought his stuff.
- Superior Pontiac header clearance which can be an issue
- My shop had no issue aligning the car but the owner used to set up high end race cars back in the day and his kid did the work, he checked it
- The result is that I have a GTO that rides/handles great and I have 0 regrets

[Nicks67GTO]

I kind of think this discussion has gotten of track. I feel the SPC and the fixed uppers both have their place. I know they were brought up when the OP mentioned he was using them combined with the screw in BJ. I think what we really want to know tall spindle w\standard bj vs short spindle w\tall bj....

Right on. I really just wanted to know the advantages that the tall AFX spindle would have over the short AFX spindle/tall ball joints or a stock spindle and tall ball joints.....

[Rod]

Right on. I really just wanted to know the advantages that the tall AFX spindle would have over the short AFX spindle/tall ball joints or a stock spindle and tall ball joints.....

I would personally use the tall spindle. I know a standard spindle and a Tall ball joint would work fine, but the tall ball joint is a compromise and are usually only a HALF inch (.500)taller, I think they only make them so tall because having all the vehicle weight transfer on that tall skinny balljoint shaft might be a risk on more then .500. Were a tall spindle is sometimes an inch (1") to inch and a half (1-1/2")taller

[79-TA]

THIS IS GET.....
I have been to numerous driving events and have yet to see anyone doing alignments in the pits. now it is possible I missed seeing it but you get my point. most on here are street cars lets face it. we get so many calls from customers who are at the Alignment shop and the guy with the wrench in has hand has no idea how to set the caster to 5 deg or even why would you would want that. it would be interesting to see THAT guy do an alignment with theses arms.
I was just trying to gauge the thought process more than anything.

I have SPC adjustable uppers to accommodate my car as it changes over time with different parts combinations. I do not frantically change alignment every time the car is used for something different. A different steering ratio will not need as much caster for the same steering feel. I can play with different cross shafts (right now, stock and one of my own design) and ball joint heights for different camber gain rates and the arm can always be made to work to get a good alignment.

I also don't trust most aftermarket companies to make a simple upper arm that repeats well enough to assume the built in caster is correct. I've seen a couple of aftermarket upper arms where a large stack of shims was required just to undo an overzealous (way over what was advertised) amount of built in positive caster.

[chevelletiger]

I would personally use the tall spindle. I know a standard spindle and a Tall ball joint would work fine, but the tall ball joint is a compromise and are usually only a HALF inch (.500)taller, I think they only make them so tall because having all the vehicle weight transfer on that tall skinny balljoint shaft might be a risk on more then .500. Were a tall spindle is sometimes an inch (1") to inch and a half (1-1/2")taller

Rod,i have scandc's stage2 plus ball joints, .500 tall lower, .900 upper = 1.4 tall on a stock spindle.just for the record.

[cdrod]

Rod,i have scandc's stage2 plus ball joints, .500 tall lower, .900 upper = 1.4 tall on a stock spindle.just for the record.

Chevelletiger:
I'm building a '72 Olds 442 convertible with a similar combination of parts (Howe +.9 upper BJ, +.3 lower BJ, SPC UCA, stock LCA and Helwig tubular swaybars). This is my first PT car so I 'm in unfamiliar territory. My set up has about 5* of negative camber gain with the suspension in full compression. Is this too much? When is too much camber gain a bad thing?
Thanks,

Rodney

[chevelletiger]

Chevelletiger:
I'm building a '72 Olds 442 convertible with a similar combination of parts (Howe +.9 upper BJ, +.3 lower BJ, SPC UCA, stock LCA and Helwig tubular swaybars). This is my first PT car so I 'm in unfamiliar territory. My set up has about 5* of negative camber gain with the suspension in full compression. Is this too much? When is too much camber gain a bad thing?
Thanks,

Rodney

i didnt know they made a .3 tall bj? 5Deg. Neg. Of camber seems like to much,now 5deg of positive of caster sounds right.have you had the car aligned.sorry to the op if we hijacked your thread.
Phil

[UMI Tech]

Just throwing this out there.

We've debated on standard vs adjustable arms for years. What we came up with was a nice single adjustable compromise.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/in...roducts_id=761

They accommodate standard ball joints to use with tall spindles and also come with tall ball joints for standard spindles.

We have a few sets on GoodGuys Auto-x cars and have run them at optima Pittsburgh on the big track (as well as other customers on other road courses).

ramey

[cdrod]

i didn't know they made a .3 tall bj? 5Deg. Neg. Of camber seems like too much, now 5deg of positive of caster sounds right.have you had the car aligned.sorry to the op if we hijacked your thread.
Phil

Phil:
I don't think we hijacked the tread, this discussion seems in keeping with the OP's quest for tall spindle vs. stock spindle/tall BJ comparison. In my previous post, I'm talking about -5* of dynamic camber gain, not static camber. I wanted to check out my suspension geometry, so I bolted everything up without the springs so I can move the suspension through it's travel. I've dialed in 4* of positive caster and 0* of static camber at ride height. When I compress the suspension to the bump stop (like in a hard corner) the spindle moves to 5* of negative camber; so my camber gain is -5*. I guess if the car has 5* of body roll then the -5* camber gain offsets the roll and should keep the tire well planted in a hard turn. Maybe this is too much camber gain, I don't know?

Rodney

[Nicks67GTO]

I'm not too worried about the thread hijacking. Keep on rolling with it. I called SC&C and Marc cleared up any confusion I had

[csouth]

I'm not too worried about the thread hijacking. Keep on rolling with it. I called SC&C and Marc cleared up any confusion I had

One thing I like about Mark is he doesn't believe in "one size fits all" configurations. He'll explain what works best in your situation and why.

[rickpaw]

I'm not too worried about the thread hijacking. Keep on rolling with it. I called SC&C and Marc cleared up any confusion I had

So what was his recommendation?

[Nicks67GTO]

So what was his recommendation?

What I took away from the conversation was simply that the the tall AFX spindles are far superior to the stock or AFX short spindle/tall ball joints and well worth the big money they cost. They may not allow for bigger peak numbers in alignment specs but the "area under the curve" so to speak is far superior. Kind of like a modern cam grind. They also pretty much eliminate bump steer.

[csouth]

What I took away from the conversation was simply that the the tall AFX spindles are far superior to the stock or AFX short spindle/tall ball joints and well worth the big money they cost. They may not allow for bigger peak numbers in alignment specs but the "area under the curve" so to speak is far superior. Kind of like a modern cam grind. They also pretty much eliminate bump steer.

That is one thing the stock spindles and steering arms are not cable of is eliminating the bump steer....

[dirty rick]

I noticed that no one spoke of the changes to the roll center that the ball joint/spindle combinations create! :^)

[cdrod]

That is one thing the stock spindles and steering arms are not cable of is eliminating the bump steer....

Bump steer with stock spindle and arms can be improved with a tall lower ball joint.