Experiences with Champion Radiatiors

[WallaceMFG]

I wanted to see if anybody on here had experience with Champion radiators in any of their cars. I'm starting to shop for my Chevelle and a friend of mine said they're pretty good, and at half the price of a Ron Davis I can't ignore them.

I was looking at the 4 row with dual fans, supposedly cools 1,000 HP.

http://www.championradiators.com/Che...roud-1968-1977

I'm running a mild SBC with a 6 speed, hopefully turbos sometime in the future.

I live in Arizona, so obviously I need the car to be able to cool itself well when it's being autocrossed. Any input or suggestions are appreciated!

[Schwartz Performance]

This company approached me to become a dealer last year. I was astounded at the prices, but everything (literally) comes from china. Their stock replacement radiators for regular cars were around $35. No joke.
I was turned off by the fact they are made in China and therefore if there's a problem, you return it and get a new one. But if they were made in the same batch, and have the same issue, well you're screwed.
While I don't have any actual feedback from their products, that's all I can tell ya.

If you're looking for a budget rad we've used a few Griffin radiators, they're pretty decent and usually come with Spal fans too.

A few people on here I believe have used Entropy radiators, they're somewhat local to us and seem to be quite inexpensive, might be another option for ya.

-Dale

[Mo's1969]

I am running a four core Champion on my built 428CJ and no problems in a year. One word of warning it was supposed to be a drop in fit for my 1969 Mach 1 and it was far from drop in. I spent several hours fabrication mounts that fit

[Red67Mustang]

I have the two 1" core Champion radiator in my Mustang. Overall I think their radiators are fine. The 4 rows are (IMHO) actually less efficient than the two 1" row cores are. This has to do with the increased surface area of the tubes to fins. The cores are essentially the same overall thickness without the wasted space between rows. Most folk just follow the 'more is better' logic and go the the 4 row core.

Word of advice though... I don't believe the Champions fans are any good. I returned a shroud / dual fan combo to them because they just wouldn't move enough air. When speaking with their tech support, they essentially agreed with me about the fans.

Do yourself a favor and look at the fans from:

http://www.coolingcomponentsinc.us.com

These are the best fans for the money I've ever seen. They are slimline and move a ton of air. I've had zero cooling issues since I installed mine.

[SparkyRnD]

Champion and Entropy former customers make up a good number of our current customers. You get what you pay for, and cheap china stuff and radiators that use epoxy are not worth using on a car worth more than $1,500. We make our radiators here in the USA, using US-Sourced materials and every one is hand built with NO epoxy or glues. Everything is aluminum and TIG welded to order. We're also a site sponsor here

[Interceptor5588]

Ran one for two years, 10 track days in my 92 Formula, no problems. Stock GM electric fans. Solid piece.

[nokones]

I bought my Champion Radiator through Ecklers. The new radiator should be in the car within the next couple of weeks when the new engine gets installed. In accordance with the information from Ecklers, my Champion Radiator is all aluminum and tig welded, No Exposy.

This is what Ecklers says about the radiator:
•100% All Aluminum Tanks, Fittings And Billet Fill Neck
•40% Better Cooling And 50-75% Lighter Than Brass Radiators
•3 Rows of 5/8 inch Tubes (600-800+ Horsepower Cooling Capacity)
•High Efficiency 14-16 Louvered Fins Per Inch And 3/8" Spaced Tubes
•100% TIG Welded Seams, Brazed Core, No Epoxy
•Includes 16 Lb. Radiator Cap, Brass Petcock Valve, And Automatic Transmission Cooler (1/2-20 Straight Thread G1/4)
•Driver In (1 1/3"), Passenger Out (1 1/2"), Factory Mounting Positions, Saddle Mount
•Overall Dimensions 18 3/4″(H) X 32 1/4″(W), Core Dimensions 17″(H) X 26 1/4″(W)
•3 Row Core Thickness 2", 3 Row Tank Thickness 2 1/2"
•ISO Certified Manufacturing For Consistent Premium Quality
•Fit 1984-1990 C4 Corvettes With Small Block 350 Engine
•Limited Lifetime Manufacturer Warranty

I hope it works.

[Build-It-Break-It]

I have a 3 row Champion radiator in my wife's 65 mustang. It's all tig welded aluminum and I've been using it for 3 years with no problem and I daily drive the mustang. I'm going to run one in my 68 camaro and not think twice about it. I don't care what you buy or where you buy, somethings bound to be made in China.

[ForzaV12]

I've used a number of them over the years-mainly on big block Mopar projects. They are just OK and represent an inexpensive solution. Actually, a factory Mopar radiator BB radiator works better than the Champion. The factory Corvette radiators also cool better than the Champions, in our experience.
That being said, the best for true track use are Ron Davis products. I have a 66 Coronet with a Hemi that needed to be dialed in-Ron Davis builds are usually a few months wait so we used a new top of the line Champion. It was marginal at keeping the Hemi cool. When my complete Davis set-up arrived, temps dropped dramatically with NO other changes. We were also running a Ron Davis set up in a road racing Dodge Dart a few years ago. We had a jack mishap in the pits and the Davis radiator was severely bent in the middle where the car had slipped off the jack. To our amazement the core didn't leak and we were able to finish the event with no issue. I wish I had a pic of that radiator-it was a mess!
You get what you pay for.

[Nothingface5384]

I first heard of them in 08 from the maverick.to forum when their was only monster cooling and champion cooling selling them.

I got one for my bros maverick a month later...cools great and still works well this day. .
I purchased a 4 row for my skylark in 09? And core leaked in multiple places within the week.
called geoffe blackwood? And payed 30 shipping to return bad one for replacement...
Installed new one..
Guess what? Also leaked within weak at core/ fins

Didnt want to pay a other 30 to have same thing reoccure so i purchased an Alumitech radiator as tbat was the best st the time..
They closed door a couple years ago most lilkely due to the flooding of chinese crap like this

the .mopar guys have problems with this cheap rad too..warped cores for the Abodies i believe was the most common issue..
with that being said, buy from R&D Fabrication and support not only a 100% American made product, but one that also supports the protouring.com forum

[Nothingface5384]

I bought my Champion Radiator through Ecklers. The new radiator should be in the car within the next couple of weeks when the new engine gets installed. In accordance with the information from Ecklers, my Champion Radiator is all aluminum and tig welded, No Exposy.

This is what Ecklers says about the radiator:
•100% All Aluminum Tanks, Fittings And Billet Fill Neck
•40% Better Cooling And 50-75% Lighter Than Brass Radiators
•3 Rows of 5/8 inch Tubes (600-800+ Horsepower Cooling Capacity)
•High Efficiency 14-16 Louvered Fins Per Inch And 3/8" Spaced Tubes
•100% TIG Welded Seams, Brazed Core, No Epoxy
•Includes 16 Lb. Radiator Cap, Brass Petcock Valve, And Automatic Transmission Cooler (1/2-20 Straight Thread G1/4)
•Driver In (1 1/3"), Passenger Out (1 1/2"), Factory Mounting Positions, Saddle Mount
•Overall Dimensions 18 3/4″(H) X 32 1/4″(W), Core Dimensions 17″(H) X 26 1/4″(W)
•3 Row Core Thickness 2", 3 Row Tank Thickness 2 1/2"
•ISO Certified Manufacturing For Consistent Premium Quality
•Fit 1984-1990 C4 Corvettes With Small Block 350 Engine
•Limited Lifetime Manufacturer Warranty

I hope it works.

Their 2 core works well, but many of us that purchased their 3 and 4 core radiators leaked at the core/fins within a week or 2
I donot recommend them anymore dont want to see anyone waste their money and chance their luck, also dont want to see a possible great american company struggle or close their doors due to the flooding of cheap Chinese made crap

[entropyradiator]

Champion and Entropy former customers make up a good number of our current customers. You get what you pay for, and cheap china stuff and radiators that use epoxy are not worth using on a car worth more than $1,500. We make our radiators here in the USA, using US-Sourced materials and every one is hand built with NO epoxy or glues. Everything is aluminum and TIG welded to order. We're also a site sponsor here

A couple of corrections to this post:

- All of our Entropy radiators are hand made in Chicago, are hand TIG welded with USA made cores. More importantly, they are 100% guaranteed to be sexy and guaranteed to cool.

- In the year 2014, it's time to drop the BS about epoxy. Nobody in the modern world has used epoxy to make aluminum radiators in almost 20 years, except one manufacturer. And since even they now have modern nitrogen atmosphere furnaces thanks to their purchase by BeCool, the only reason they still use it is because the beat the drum for so long about how superior it was. They have no reason to continue using epoxy, aside from doing such would be eating a big plate of crow.

The original question - why the radiator is $200 and and USA made one is $500 - is a good one. More importantly, what impact is it going to have on cooling your car. The key differences aside from Chinese welders working for $2/hr are in the core. More specifically, it's #1 the way the cores are brazed and #2 the gage of materials used.

Addressing #1, The Chinese radiators (specifically the Champion) are flame brazed in a natural gas fired furnace which is a cheap process. Versus most higher grade radiator manufacturers (all USA) use electric furnaces so there aren't open flame scorching the core as it moves through the furnace. Electric brazing is much more expensive.

When the radiator cores come out of a nat gas furnace, the cores are charred and look like they've been in a Weber grille for 2 hours too long. They cover this up by spray painting the cores silver. This spray paint acts as an insulator and greatly reduces the efficiency of the radiator core.

In addition, the nat gas process is much dirtier and the final product ends up with lots of acid on the core. The downside here is this can become corrosive and do the core in quickly.

Addressing #2, the Chinese radiators are made with paper thin fin stock material and paper thin tubes. Most USA made radiators are going to be made with .008" - .010" fin stock. The Chinese radiators are made with .004" fin stock. Again, the $500 question is what impact is this going to have on life/cooling ability of the radiator?

First, .004" is too thin for fin stock. The fins are too weak and will easily break. If you take a pair of needle nose pliers to these cores, you can easily break the bond between the tubes and the fins. If there is no bond between the tubes and the fins, there is no heat transfer.

Second, over time from the radiator thermal cycling hot-cold-hot-cold, the core expands and contracts. When it does this, it wants to pull the fins from the tubes. If the bond is weak, physics will win and break this bond. This is why over time, even if a radiator looks clean and isn't leaking, it loses it's ability to cool your engine. This going to happen exponentially faster on a core made with .004" stock.

So a Chinese radiator may cool great now, however it's going to fall off fast when you start racking up miles on your car. A USA made piece is going to last exponentially longer before the cooling performance starts to degrade.

Or before it springs a leak and leaves you stranded. Leaks don't call you and schedule a time they can conveniently start leaking on your terms.

If you have a $10k car with a $2k 307 small block, then a $1000 radiator system doesn't make economical sense. At all. However a $200 radiator does. A $10k car isn't probably going to be cleaning house at car shows either.

However if you have a $50k build with a $10k engine, then protecting your investment and craftsmanship are more important. When it's 65 degrees outside, it's rainbows and unicorns. Anything will keep your motor cool. However when it's 112 degrees and you have the Vintage Air set on KILL, that's when things matter and the differences are glaringly obvious.

When it's 103 degrees and you can't run the A/C because your $50k car overheats, you're probably going to be spending some nights on the couch with a prolonged dry, curious feeling between your legs. Try explaining to your wife that you spent $50k on your car BUT you can't drive it when it's hot out, or run the A/C, because it overheats.

Tony

[dhutton]

A couple of corrections to this post:

- All of our Entropy radiators are hand made in Chicago, are hand TIG welded with USA made cores. More importantly, they are 100% guaranteed to be sexy and guaranteed to cool.

- In the year 2014, it's time to drop the BS about epoxy. Nobody in the modern world has used epoxy to make aluminum radiators in almost 20 years, except one manufacturer. And since even they now have modern nitrogen atmosphere furnaces thanks to their purchase by BeCool, the only reason they still use it is because the beat the drum for so long about how superior it was. They have no reason to continue using epoxy, aside from doing such would be eating a big plate of crow.

The original question - why the radiator is $200 and and USA made one is $500 - is a good one. More importantly, what impact is it going to have on cooling your car. The key differences aside from Chinese welders working for $2/hr are in the core. More specifically, it's #1 the way the cores are brazed and #2 the gage of materials used.

Addressing #1, The Chinese radiators (specifically the Champion) are flame brazed in a natural gas fired furnace which is a cheap process. Versus most higher grade radiator manufacturers (all USA) use electric furnaces so there aren't open flame scorching the core as it moves through the furnace. Electric brazing is much more expensive.

When the radiator cores come out of a nat gas furnace, the cores are charred and look like they've been in a Weber grille for 2 hours too long. They cover this up by spray painting the cores silver. This spray paint acts as an insulator and greatly reduces the efficiency of the radiator core.

In addition, the nat gas process is much dirtier and the final product ends up with lots of acid on the core. The downside here is this can become corrosive and do the core in quickly.

Addressing #2, the Chinese radiators are made with paper thin fin stock material and paper thin tubes. Most USA made radiators are going to be made with .008" - .010" fin stock. The Chinese radiators are made with .004" fin stock. Again, the $500 question is what impact is this going to have on life/cooling ability of the radiator?

First, .004" is too thin for fin stock. The fins are too weak and will easily break. If you take a pair of needle nose pliers to these cores, you can easily break the bond between the tubes and the fins. If there is no bond between the tubes and the fins, there is no heat transfer.

Second, over time from the radiator thermal cycling hot-cold-hot-cold, the core expands and contracts. When it does this, it wants to pull the fins from the tubes. If the bond is weak, physics will win and break this bond. This is why over time, even if a radiator looks clean and isn't leaking, it loses it's ability to cool your engine. This going to happen exponentially faster on a core made with .004" stock.

So a Chinese radiator may cool great now, however it's going to fall off fast when you start racking up miles on your car. A USA made piece is going to last exponentially longer before the cooling performance starts to degrade.

Or before it springs a leak and leaves you stranded. Leaks don't call you and schedule a time they can conveniently start leaking on your terms.

If you have a $10k car with a $2k 307 small block, then a $1000 radiator system doesn't make economical sense. At all. However a $200 radiator does. A $10k car isn't probably going to be cleaning house at car shows either.

However if you have a $50k build with a $10k engine, then protecting your investment and craftsmanship are more important. When it's 65 degrees outside, it's rainbows and unicorns. Anything will keep your motor cool. However when it's 112 degrees and you have the Vintage Air set on KILL, that's when things matter and the differences are glaringly obvious.

When it's 103 degrees and you can't run the A/C because your $50k car overheats, you're probably going to be spending some nights on the couch with a prolonged dry, curious feeling between your legs. Try explaining to your wife that you spent $50k on your car BUT you can't drive it when it's hot out, or run the A/C, because it overheats.

Tony

Entertaining and informative post. I have had good results with both of the Entropy radiators I purchased FWIW...

Don

[WallaceMFG]

Thanks for all the input guys! I've come to the conclusion that I need to not cheap out on the cooling system as I live in Arizona, and sometimes the car will have 3 different people racing it at a single event haha. I'm going to look into better options for the Chevelle and hopefully be ready to buy one in the near future.

[H2Ogbodies]

Chinese aluminum tig welders and iso-certified processes? That alone made me laugh! Stick with USA made parts-its sad so much of what even used to associate with high quality I am suspect of now just because its made in China now. Remember when Alpine was made in Canada? Then in Mexico? Now in China.....sigh......

[icemanrd19]

This post alone might just make me buy a radiator off of you. Great post

A couple of corrections to this post:

- All of our Entropy radiators are hand made in Chicago, are hand TIG welded with USA made cores. More importantly, they are 100% guaranteed to be sexy and guaranteed to cool.

- In the year 2014, it's time to drop the BS about epoxy. Nobody in the modern world has used epoxy to make aluminum radiators in almost 20 years, except one manufacturer. And since even they now have modern nitrogen atmosphere furnaces thanks to their purchase by BeCool, the only reason they still use it is because the beat the drum for so long about how superior it was. They have no reason to continue using epoxy, aside from doing such would be eating a big plate of crow.

The original question - why the radiator is $200 and and USA made one is $500 - is a good one. More importantly, what impact is it going to have on cooling your car. The key differences aside from Chinese welders working for $2/hr are in the core. More specifically, it's #1 the way the cores are brazed and #2 the gage of materials used.

Addressing #1, The Chinese radiators (specifically the Champion) are flame brazed in a natural gas fired furnace which is a cheap process. Versus most higher grade radiator manufacturers (all USA) use electric furnaces so there aren't open flame scorching the core as it moves through the furnace. Electric brazing is much more expensive.

When the radiator cores come out of a nat gas furnace, the cores are charred and look like they've been in a Weber grille for 2 hours too long. They cover this up by spray painting the cores silver. This spray paint acts as an insulator and greatly reduces the efficiency of the radiator core.

In addition, the nat gas process is much dirtier and the final product ends up with lots of acid on the core. The downside here is this can become corrosive and do the core in quickly.

Addressing #2, the Chinese radiators are made with paper thin fin stock material and paper thin tubes. Most USA made radiators are going to be made with .008" - .010" fin stock. The Chinese radiators are made with .004" fin stock. Again, the $500 question is what impact is this going to have on life/cooling ability of the radiator?

First, .004" is too thin for fin stock. The fins are too weak and will easily break. If you take a pair of needle nose pliers to these cores, you can easily break the bond between the tubes and the fins. If there is no bond between the tubes and the fins, there is no heat transfer.

Second, over time from the radiator thermal cycling hot-cold-hot-cold, the core expands and contracts. When it does this, it wants to pull the fins from the tubes. If the bond is weak, physics will win and break this bond. This is why over time, even if a radiator looks clean and isn't leaking, it loses it's ability to cool your engine. This going to happen exponentially faster on a core made with .004" stock.

So a Chinese radiator may cool great now, however it's going to fall off fast when you start racking up miles on your car. A USA made piece is going to last exponentially longer before the cooling performance starts to degrade.

Or before it springs a leak and leaves you stranded. Leaks don't call you and schedule a time they can conveniently start leaking on your terms.

If you have a $10k car with a $2k 307 small block, then a $1000 radiator system doesn't make economical sense. At all. However a $200 radiator does. A $10k car isn't probably going to be cleaning house at car shows either.

However if you have a $50k build with a $10k engine, then protecting your investment and craftsmanship are more important. When it's 65 degrees outside, it's rainbows and unicorns. Anything will keep your motor cool. However when it's 112 degrees and you have the Vintage Air set on KILL, that's when things matter and the differences are glaringly obvious.

When it's 103 degrees and you can't run the A/C because your $50k car overheats, you're probably going to be spending some nights on the couch with a prolonged dry, curious feeling between your legs. Try explaining to your wife that you spent $50k on your car BUT you can't drive it when it's hot out, or run the A/C, because it overheats.

Tony

[nokones]

After I got my Champion Radiator and when I read one of the posts that stated they are made in China, I called Champion and asked that question and they responded "Yes They Are". Well, I had seconds thoughts and the fact that I am totally against having China stuff on my American made car, I called Ecklers and asked them if they will take back the radiator since it hasn't been out of the box yet and they said they would. So, I bought a " Be Cool" radiator from Ecklers.

We'll see how cool the "Be Cool" will keep the car cool when I run the hot laps at the Texas and Las Vegas optima events with my new motor. I'm sure I'll be cool (insofar as the temps go).

[TheJDMan]

I have a BeCool and love it. That said, my neighbor bought a new Champion 4 core for his Chevelle and I have to say it is not a bad looking unit. We will see how it cools his 572 once he gets it running. I'm like Kenny I prefer American made over China any day even if it is more money.

[focused313]

A couple of corrections to this post:

- All of our Entropy radiators are hand made in Chicago, are hand TIG welded with USA made cores. More importantly, they are 100% guaranteed to be sexy and guaranteed to cool.

- In the year 2014, it's time to drop the BS about epoxy. Nobody in the modern world has used epoxy to make aluminum radiators in almost 20 years, except one manufacturer. And since even they now have modern nitrogen atmosphere furnaces thanks to their purchase by BeCool, the only reason they still use it is because the beat the drum for so long about how superior it was. They have no reason to continue using epoxy, aside from doing such would be eating a big plate of crow.

The original question - why the radiator is $200 and and USA made one is $500 - is a good one. More importantly, what impact is it going to have on cooling your car. The key differences aside from Chinese welders working for $2/hr are in the core. More specifically, it's #1 the way the cores are brazed and #2 the gage of materials used.

Addressing #1, The Chinese radiators (specifically the Champion) are flame brazed in a natural gas fired furnace which is a cheap process. Versus most higher grade radiator manufacturers (all USA) use electric furnaces so there aren't open flame scorching the core as it moves through the furnace. Electric brazing is much more expensive.

When the radiator cores come out of a nat gas furnace, the cores are charred and look like they've been in a Weber grille for 2 hours too long. They cover this up by spray painting the cores silver. This spray paint acts as an insulator and greatly reduces the efficiency of the radiator core.

In addition, the nat gas process is much dirtier and the final product ends up with lots of acid on the core. The downside here is this can become corrosive and do the core in quickly.

Addressing #2, the Chinese radiators are made with paper thin fin stock material and paper thin tubes. Most USA made radiators are going to be made with .008" - .010" fin stock. The Chinese radiators are made with .004" fin stock. Again, the $500 question is what impact is this going to have on life/cooling ability of the radiator?

First, .004" is too thin for fin stock. The fins are too weak and will easily break. If you take a pair of needle nose pliers to these cores, you can easily break the bond between the tubes and the fins. If there is no bond between the tubes and the fins, there is no heat transfer.

Second, over time from the radiator thermal cycling hot-cold-hot-cold, the core expands and contracts. When it does this, it wants to pull the fins from the tubes. If the bond is weak, physics will win and break this bond. This is why over time, even if a radiator looks clean and isn't leaking, it loses it's ability to cool your engine. This going to happen exponentially faster on a core made with .004" stock.

So a Chinese radiator may cool great now, however it's going to fall off fast when you start racking up miles on your car. A USA made piece is going to last exponentially longer before the cooling performance starts to degrade.

Or before it springs a leak and leaves you stranded. Leaks don't call you and schedule a time they can conveniently start leaking on your terms.

If you have a $10k car with a $2k 307 small block, then a $1000 radiator system doesn't make economical sense. At all. However a $200 radiator does. A $10k car isn't probably going to be cleaning house at car shows either.

However if you have a $50k build with a $10k engine, then protecting your investment and craftsmanship are more important. When it's 65 degrees outside, it's rainbows and unicorns. Anything will keep your motor cool. However when it's 112 degrees and you have the Vintage Air set on KILL, that's when things matter and the differences are glaringly obvious.

When it's 103 degrees and you can't run the A/C because your $50k car overheats, you're probably going to be spending some nights on the couch with a prolonged dry, curious feeling between your legs. Try explaining to your wife that you spent $50k on your car BUT you can't drive it when it's hot out, or run the A/C, because it overheats.

Tony

now that's how you gain a customer. I'm still a Champion customer, but now I clearly understand what's going on...more so than just "buy American"

[pitts64]

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