What's the Longest you've had a Car in a Paint Shop?

[mmosley]

Went to the shop September 17th, 2013.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...54#post1019354

I was told that it could be a few months to get to the car, and other cars were ahead of mine. Went to media blast shop mid October.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1026371

Repair and fabrication was finally started in late November:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1032471

Primered in April:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...42#post1060742

Ready for paint, May 21st:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...85#post1070285

Paint June 3rd:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...88#post1072488

Came home June 14th, 2014.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...91#post1074691

It took longer than I would have liked. The shop has one guy that does welding and fabrication work, and one guy that does paint. Some weeks my car was only worked on one day, others the full week. The shop owner would take small jobs in to make a few quick bucks and try to keep the guys all busy. He never lied to me. He only charged me for the hours that they worked on the car, no storage fees or other nonsense. I paid a few weeks worth at a time, after work was done usually. Sometimes I paid a little in advance, but, beyond the initial deposit, I was never asked to pay up front. Cost - about 1/3 more than I expected. Some things could have been done faster I suppose, but the shop rate is not that high, so I can not complain too much. Guys did pretty good work. At the end of it all we are still friends. Now the car is waiting for me to work on it. That is a challenge!

[joesbruiser]

Being in this part of the industry I would like to share my thoughts. Does it take longer to get a paint job than it should ,yes in most cases i do believe it does. Let me say I do not consider myself a body or paint guy i'm a wrench but I can do it with the best of them when I need too.
I run a small 5000 sqft restoration shop that has shown at meadowbrook, amelia island, world of wheels, detroit autorama etc..... We do very nice work and keep a giant backlog without any advertisement. Since we do more than just paint I keep 2 guys that do the mechanic work, one full time body and paint guy, a young person usually a highschool kid to sweep,cleanup,blast parts and then I fill in wherever it is needed because I can do any part of a restoration.This usually keeps things moving very well. We also do a lot of maintenance on our customers cars, this slows things down the worst.Schedule in 3 cars for small stuff and then get into the job and see you have to make a part or wait 2 weeks on a part for a 1918 essex,or a Cord or packard or a apollo gt. Because of this you will never see more than 2 paint and body jobs in my shop at a time. Only 2 of us there can do the paint and body work and you can not get a good product jumping around on 10 cars.
The rotation I do to keep the body guy from getting completely worn out rubbing on the same car for 6 months is we get all the metalwork finished and start the body work once the car goes in prime we will start taking apart the second job,once it is off to the blaster we will get the car blocked and back in primer.The day the second car is back from the blaster we clean it and get all the parts in epoxy and it sits until we finish the first paint job and it starts all over.This seems to work well and we get a good finished product. A complete restoration in or shop on the average car takes about 12-16 months and then its off to the interior shop.
Now I do not usually do "just a paint job" but there is one in the shop now. We are on our 4th week and the car should go in paint by the end of the 5th and be fully assembled by the end of the 7th week.This is more of a experiment for us than anything to see just how long it takes and what the cost will be. Just paint and body is something the owner of the shop has never done before and in my eyes its a part of the market that we need to be in. I may be wrong but time will tell.
When a customer comes into the shop to talk about a paint job I always let them know it will be atleast 4-6 months before I can start,usually I will get them in sooner but I do not want to rush what we are working on to start another job and we do not need to get them in there just to get the first draw to fund something else.I hate shops that do business that way.
Now we are talking money.I will quote the paint job upfront after the color has been picked.This price is just for the body work,paint,wet sanding and buffing.I do not quote metal work and I never will.
I also will not quote dissasembly, there is no way to know what is going to brake or fall apart in your hand on a old car. All of this is done by the hour at a said price for how ever long it takes. Once the car is apart I take it to the blaster and I will give the owner a price for that. After the body and paint is finished it goes back to the hourly rate to put it back together.
This usually ends up in the 20,000-30,000 dollar range to get the body apart,reparied,bodyworked,painted and back together.Then if we are doing drivetrain,frame,etc is all hourly plus parts.Average complete stock restoration out of our shop is in the 70,000-90,000 dollar range.
Our current "just a paint job" I quated at 10,000 I will let everone know how that goes.
I know This was a little off topic but it give my inside view on how long it usually takes.

[joejaze]

My car was in the body shop for 21 months and it still needs to go back for final touches once the interior is complete. Granted, we did some body mods and took the car down to bare metal but I still think the time frame was ridiculous. The bottom line is the shop was getting the quick hit insurance claims in and out while my car sat on the sidelines. I think my mistake was I paid as the car progressed. I should have given a small down payment and paid in full at the end.

[killer69]

This car.



Was in our paint shop from Dec 20 till April 15.
The metal work was done (inhouse) prior, but it still needed window openings finished, minor alignment for the panels, you know but that is how long it took. including wet sand and polish.

One guy one car one job, oh we did do a couple other small jobs in between as well painted a couple engine bays and some touch ups on a 69 Camaro.

if there are 3 guys in a shop there really shouldn't be more than 3 cars. one guy one car.
at least that is how we do it here.

[1965gp]

Paint body is tricky- you get frustrated and want to go off on the shop. Then when you aren't happy with the work they blame you for rushing them.

Also- if you negotiate down on the price and aren't happy with the work they tell you that is why they quoted the higher price.

I am extremely fortunate- I have a close friend that owns a production style body shop. They do a lot of dealership work and quick repairs. But- the owner is a car guy at heart and loves building hot rods and muscle cars. He has done several cars for me (about 10?) and while they are budget nice driver quality cars I have always been very happy with their work. Does it take a long time? Yup- anywhere from 3 months up to over a year to strip the car to metal (after I disassemble), replace any metal needed, seal, block and paint base/clear.

It takes a while and I know it. I also know that I get a great deal and that he couldn't stay in business if all he did was resto / refurbish work at these prices. He makes his money on the dealership work and insurance work. He does restoration work because he enjoys it. I have referred guys to him and they always argue the price down and then get mad when they don't have time to work on the car straight through.

If you are charging 20k for paint and body then yea you should be able to tackle that job as priority #1- if it is a fraction of that 20k then you need to understand that your car is going to be low priority.

I usually try to get my cars to him in the fall when things slow down. If they get slow (which doesn't ever happen anymore) I would bring them a project car so they can keep their guys working through the off season. Once tax time and summer comes around they are pretty booked.

[DubyaS6]

^^I agree with the above.

Body Shops realistically can't charge enough to work on a huge project like that non-stop in order to finish it in 3-4 months. Most people won't pay that kind of money. That means the shop is forced to take in other work at the same time in order to make the money they need to stay afloat. This means less time for them to be able to work on your car; therefore it takes longer.

Just my $0.02

[jlcustomz]

There are plenty of shops that get good work done in a reasonable amount of time, even if it's longer than originally stated. too bad they are hard to find.

Do most of my own paintwork. Got with a lower level person at an autocrafters back in 98' to be my helper & get me in their shop on a couple of Saturdays for spraying. Did bodywork & colorsanding at home. In march 2011 I got tired of not having paint on my Camaro nose conversion & sprayed my entire front end disassembled under my carport at night the week before Daytona spring show. Being in control, I made the show the next week.

Another option for some may be if you have a large independently operated chain store in your area that can do quality work. They are in the business of getting work in & out & may be able to do high end work in an appropriate amount of time when paid correctly. This all varies according to shop. WE have a Maaco in jax that at least used to do some nicer jobs, as long as they weren't pearl or something. Just a thought.

[dhutton]

9 months and it took a lot of pushing to get it done. Then he finally rushed it out the door. I now do my own paint and body work. It may not be SEMA quality but they are damn nice drivers. And I get to drive them which is more than I could say when I used to farm out this part of the build...

Don

[bret]

We have 2 guys that build cars. One car at a time, with maybe a couple of quicky repairs thown in during the way.

I started my own body shop about 12 years ago after going through the scenarios described above. That is when I was educated to the number of hours and amount of money truly required to build a car properly. The simplest build we've done is the 69 Z28 restoration tha we are doing right now. We currently have been working on that car nearly non stop since Jan 2014 and still have at least a couple months to go. Were at approx 1500 hours and counting. If this were a retail customer [we don't do outside builds anymore] the labor on this car would already be over $100,000. This particular car was quite nice to start with...nearly no rust and original GM sheetmetal. After all this time [and many top notch cars] I still can't figure out how to build a car that you don't paint on-site. The fabrication/assembly/paint process is so intertwined that I would consider it nearly impossible.
I understand that not every car needs to be built at this level [although my guys don't ] Obviously most people do not have the financial or logistical resources to do EVERYTHING themsleves...BUT, it is very helpful for the customer to be miserably aware of the time it takes to do custom work. It is absolutely unrealistic to expect anyone to "paint" a hotrod for $10,000. The materials will cost at least a third of that. That leaves $7000 for labor. at a minumum labor rate of $35.00/hour [most shops are at least double that] your expecting the shop to paint that car in 200 hours. Can't be done.

Conversely, the shop owner must sac up and give the customer a realistic estimate. Many won't because they are simply afraid to...or they don't know...because they don't keep accurate track of the hours. Not a sustainable business model.
Another un-sustainable business model is the conept of doing a job for nearly nothing for someone who is going to make them famous. When all you have to sell is the same 24 hours in a day that every other human does, there is no way to recover from "spending" 1000 hours painting a car for someone. I've seen too many shops put under by that concept.
It is also helpful for the shop owner to over-communicate on a weekly or even daily basis about the progress of the project. We take at least 5 pictures a day, even if nothing is being visibly accomplished. Digital image storage is cheap and it always seems to come in handy. Lack of communucation has killed more relationships than anything else.

In a perfect world it should be a law that anyone who wants a car built or even painted by someone else should have to build or paint one themselves first. Then they could have some realistic expectation of what it takes to accomplish this. For those who can't/won't...buy one and bolt on a new set of wheels. That may sound harsh or facitious, but some of my favorite cars were "built" this way...including the 48 Hour Camaro. That car was a really nicely restored 327/glide Camaro that I found at a local car show. I paid under $20k for that car and have done no paint work to it [except for repairs ] That car won't win any car shows but I don't think anyone will deny its a nice car and a metric ton of fun to drive and race. The point is there is more than one way to acheive your dreams. Keep plugging!

[DubyaS6]

AMEN! In my experience painting is the easy part. It's all the prep work before you get to that point that makes or breaks the job.

Sure, a lot of people out there can paint a car and have it look "ok", but they aren't putting the time and money into it to prepare it to look AMAZING once it's painted. That takes lots of time.

I agree that most companies (paint or not) don't communicate well enough with their customers. If the customer knows what to expect at the beginning, then there isn't as much risk of them being extremely upset when months have gone by and their car isn't done.

If they want to have a car with an amazing paint job, they need to be prepared to wait for that as well as pay for it. I feel like if a lot of people were told up front about the realistic time and cost it takes, they would choose a different route. And that needs to be their choice.

[1965gp]

Interesting that Maaco is mentioned above. The shop my friend owns is a Maaco franchise. People are always shocked that my cars are painted there- but if I disassemble and take it to them I get a high end driver quality paint job for a reasonable price.

I am not in the position to build a car like Brett describes above (too many cars!) so this process works well for me. I have done body work and have prepped my shard of cars- it is an amazing amount of work and unfortunately that cost $$.

[dhutton]

AMEN! In my experience painting is the easy part. It's all the prep work before you get to that point that makes or breaks the job.

Sure, a lot of people out there can paint a car and have it look "ok", but they aren't putting the time and money into it to prepare it to look AMAZING once it's painted. That takes lots of time.

I agree that most companies (paint or not) don't communicate well enough with their customers. If the customer knows what to expect at the beginning, then there isn't as much risk of them being extremely upset when months have gone by and their car isn't done.

If they want to have a car with an amazing paint job, they need to be prepared to wait for that as well as pay for it. I feel like if a lot of people were told up front about the realistic time and cost it takes, they would choose a different route. And that needs to be their choice.

AMAZING is very subjective. Most people who see my home brew paint jobs are very impressed and I get a lot of folks asking me to paint their cars. On the other hand Ring Brothers would not be AMAZED... I am not bragging here, I am just saying that folks need to explore alternatives to getting chapped when their cars are stuck in paint prison...

I am also not arguing that good results don't take time. They do. I think issues arise when cars sit for weeks and months without any progress or they work on it one or two days a month etc....

Too many folks putting SEMA quality paint jobs on cars that don't warrant it in my mind. Especially if they are going to drive them...

Don

[BMR Sales]

Communication is the Key - I'm still waiting on my car and now it is over 7 Months. He told me he would send me pictures along the way - I've gotten one! If he would Call or Text on a Weekly Basis and tell me what was going on (even if nothing got accomplished), I wouldn't be so frustrated. I heard (Text) from the Painter last week and we are back to being on better terms, but I still don't know when I'm getting it back.

In the Past, when I've had a Bad Experience with someone working on my car, I've sold it because I don't even want to be reminded of the hassle I went through. I think I have someone lined up to buy this one - I will breaking even on it.

[Merlin]

Three f-ing long years.

Cliff

[mikedc]

IMO we all just have expectations too high anymore.


What is "acceptable" fit & finish? These 45yo cars were never built with decent quality to start with. They were never even DESIGNED with it! The pieces don't even have the tolerances in the first place! And the factory finishes on these cars . . . they would rate as "semigloss" by modern standards. These cars were built with runs in the paint, mis-aligned panels, pieces that rubbed against each other and started coming apart almost immediately, etc.


Materials do cost a lot. We demand 150,000-mile-durable paintjobs on cars that rarely ever get driven another 15,000 miles again when they are finished. The environmental issues are another matter I won't go into, but IMO most of the restored cars in this hobby could have used far less durable materials without issues.


People don't show up to a body/paint shop wanting a car "resprayed" so much as reinvented. They show up with a 3500-lb pile of parts (about 1200 pounds of which are re-usable) with 1/2" tolerances. They want something back that looks like their old car but was built like a 21st-century product.


If a huge corporation was asked to restore 500,000 copies of an old muscle car to please the current resto market, they would quickly decide that it's cheaper to retool the cars from scratch and start over on most of the major pieces. What people want on the finished product is too far removed from what the original raw materials provide to start with.

[theastronaut]

The shop I work at restored this truck in about 14 months but we weren't on it full time. We did everything here, not just the body/paint work. They drove it in and drove it out. All we do is restoration work though- no small jobs or insurance work so we can stay on just a couple jobs steadily. We've heard plenty of paint job horror stories and I have my own from a few years back before I learned the trade.

It's a huge problem everywhere though. We just had a guy drive from Connecticut to our shop in SC to check us out; he couldn't find a shop he could trust locally to restore his '40 Packard.


Build thread:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/12...ld-thread.html





From this:







To this:

[Boatmark]

I think Brett has a valid point - much of the general public (at least from my experience in the boat / yacht business) do not have a realistic understanding of the relationship between time, money, and the different levels of quality available. It is up to the shop to educate them through the decision process, and as much as possible head off future problems and arguments.

The flip side of the coin is that much of the issue with paint shops is poor management skills on the part of those running them - poor time management, poor cash management, and poor customer management. When you break down the efficiency numbers in many of these types of businesses, the owners are astounded at what has been happening in their own businesses.

I have another type of issue - I can't afford the quality I want, and am not happy with the quality I can afford - so I have to do it myself.

[fitzmotor]

My truck took a year, it was supposed to be quick job, not a perfect paint job, just a paint job.

[killer69]

^^I agree with the above.

Body Shops realistically can't charge enough to work on a huge project like that non-stop in order to finish it in 3-4 months. Most people won't pay that kind of money. That means the shop is forced to take in other work at the same time in order to make the money they need to stay afloat. This means less time for them to be able to work on your car; therefore it takes longer.

Just my $0.02

Not specifically directed at you comment
WHY can a shop not charge for the time it takes to do the work? I don't understand this thinking. when I go to work for 8 hours I want to get paid for 8 hours of work, not 4 or 6 or even 7. if the customers can't afford the work then they need to find another hobby. When the plumber comes to my house to fix the leak in the sink he even charges me to drive to my house, then charges me for the time he worked on the leak, if he doesn't have the correct parts he charges me to drive to home depot to get the part? if he takes 4 hours to fix the leak then what? why cant the body shop charge for all the time it takes to do a job??? why do customers think this industry is not a legitimate business that has to pay bills and make money. why do they think they can negotiate AFTER the fact on the price. I bet thy don't work for free? Rant over I am not saying it is an open check book but it takes along time to do a high end paint job.and thousands of dollars in materials!! it still blows me away how much the materials cost.

[1965gp]

Big difference there. Plumber fixes a leak- it either leaks or it doesn't. Most people are not going to analyze the product or installation. It works or it doesn't.

Guy paints a car- one person thinks it has orange peel and one person thinks it looks great. One person see's a wave in black paint and one person see's a shiny car.

Btw- I completely agree with the shop getting paid for the work they do. I always offer to pay my guy upfront or in stages. Wife's car is there now after hail damage and I am paying more than quoted cause I know he gives me a deal. I do not negotiate on paint- it almost always guarantees a bad job.

One more thing- the turn around on the truck above sounds good- but that is a restoration. No custom fabrication, no calculating, no pioneering designs, etc. that cost A LOT more because you are not only paying the labor- you are paying for and taking the time to figure it out.

I haven't built a true pro- touring car yet because quite honestly it's out of my price range. I have a few cars that have 17's and disc brakes but in my opinion that isn't pro-touring. It's the pro- touring look.