Targa Truck '71 GMC build - The first truck in Targa Newfoundland.

[Rockett]

Wow!! Congrats on the twins!! I have been following along and have missed the last few days, man... Lots going on! Looking amazing!!!

[Centerforce]

It seems like your truck AND family are coming along nicely! The Forgelines look amazing, and we cant wait to see them mounted. What did the weight on them come out to?

[bovey]

Thank you everyone for the kind comments on the twins. Like twin turbos, they are very cool.

Lookin awesome Mark. For turn sigs, check into the wiring modules that custom Harley builders use. They can be set up with a momentary push button (push-on/push-off) or a momentary push button with a timer (push-on/timer-off). They are designed for low load L.E.D. lighting and are very small.

Thanks Rob! That looks like a simple solution and options are handy, because things never seem to work out as planned. When I rewire the truck, I'm going with a Motec PDM, and those systems offer some good options too. I may still try to keep the turn signal on the column, i've been dabbling in 3D design and might, MIGHT make something.

It seems like your truck AND family are coming along nicely! The Forgelines look amazing, and we cant wait to see them mounted. What did the weight on them come out to?

Thanks, i'll post photos when they get mounted. As for weight, i plopped one on a nitrous scale and they came in at 25.2 lbs.

[Dr G]

First, let talk seating position. With your seat adjusted PROPERLY (upright, you're not a Gangsta), you should be able to push on the floor just behind your pedal/clutch. With your harness or seatbelt on, AND YOUR shoulder blade NOT LIFTING from the seat - your wrist should rest on the top of your steering wheel. Simple enough - right? I my case the truck was close, I've added 1.5" to the length of my column to get the wrist thing right.

I stole this from google to illustrate the seating thing. FYI - good driving posture will make you a better driver.

Attachment 128368

You discuss the fore-aft position of the steering wheel.

What are your thoughts regarding (1) the height, and (2) the angle of the steering wheel.

Since the column is non-tilt it may have to exit the firewall pretty high up to prevent the angle from being "bus-like" no?

Gustave

[bovey]

You discuss the fore-aft position of the steering wheel.

What are your thoughts regarding (1) the height, and (2) the angle of the steering wheel.

Since the column is non-tilt it may have to exit the firewall pretty high up to prevent the angle from being "bus-like" no?

Gustave

I do plan on re-visiting a some "office" ergonomics when the time comes. For my stock column height, my seating position was a little low. However, I liked to low seat position as it kept my head further away from the roof of the truck. Technically, it helps with cg too, but I'm not pretending for a second that it really affected the truck's handling given the stock nature of the chassis. #keepingitreal

I need to double check seating position; from what I recall, ideal seating position places your chin roughly at the top edge of the steering wheel. As mentioned above, I'm lower than that but I like it. Why? Because I'm currently stuck with a 14:1 steering box and every so often my hands get lost and having the wheel more in my visual line seems to help. NOTE: This only happens on tight AutoX runs.

Once I get the column and a few things mocked up I'll figure out if the new Woodward column is moving down on the dash mount or up on the firewall. It's not as bad as you think, these trucks don't drive like buses. Here's an old photo that gives you an idea of the current angle, BUT the steering wheel is bent from my pre-harness-race-seat days.



More soon. Waiting on a couple of oddball parts. Oh, the delays...

[Josh@Ridetech]

Thank you everyone for the kind comments on the twins. Like twin turbos, they are very cool.



Thanks Rob! That looks like a simple solution and options are handy, because things never seem to work out as planned. When I rewire the truck, I'm going with a Motec PDM, and those systems offer some good options too. I may still try to keep the turn signal on the column, i've been dabbling in 3D design and might, MIGHT make something.



Thanks, i'll post photos when they get mounted. As for weight, i plopped one on a nitrous scale and they came in at 25.2 lbs.

Oooooh. Nice choice!!

[Dr G]

I do plan on re-visiting a some "office" ergonomics when the time comes. For my stock column height, my seating position was a little low. However, I liked to low seat position as it kept my head further away from the roof of the truck. Technically, it helps with cg too, but I'm not pretending for a second that it really affected the truck's handling given the stock nature of the chassis. #keepingitreal

I agree with you on sitting low. I like to sit as low as I can, in any vehicle really. The two limits on how low I can sit generally, are how far my feet can extend out, and whether I can still see over the dash. Sitting up high in my truck makes me feel like I'm rowing a canoe while sitting on a bar stool!

I need to double check seating position; from what I recall, ideal seating position places your chin roughly at the top edge of the steering wheel. As mentioned above, I'm lower than that but I like it. Why? Because I'm currently stuck with a 14:1 steering box and every so often my hands get lost and having the wheel more in my visual line seems to help. NOTE: This only happens on tight AutoX runs.

For me personally I like my steering wheel high and close, and as vertical as I can get it. That's just me. Any car or truck I get in that is the first thing I do: shove the seat all the way down, and shove the steering wheel all the way up and out (I'm 5'11").

Additionally, over the last 15 years or so I've spent time studying the way professional race car drivers set up their cockpits (steering wheel, shifters, pedals). I maintained a website back in the early-mid 2000's for performance BMW's and I had a section dedicated to cockpit ergonomics. Most of the pictures came from "Racecar Engineering" and "Race Tech" magazines (both from England) and focused on F1, World Endurance, DTM, Touring Cars and World Rally. These drivers all had their steering wheels positioned so that the center of the wheel was somewhere between their sternum and their collarbone, and almost vertical. It was also located pretty close to the body, such that with their hands at 3 and 9 o'clock the elbows were at their sides. Sprint Cup is similar except their steering wheels are large so they mount them a bit lower so that they can still see. A thread is worthless without pics so:





So that's my two cents about steering wheel position. Most people think I'm nuts when I ramble on about this stuff. But I figure It's worthwhile to pay attention to driver's who are paid millions to do what they do, and maybe learn something from it. Just as someone would pay attention to a pro golfer's swing and try to emulate it.

Once I get the column and a few things mocked up I'll figure out if the new Woodward column is moving down on the dash mount or up on the firewall. It's not as bad as you think, these trucks don't drive like buses. Here's an old photo that gives you an idea of the current angle, BUT the steering wheel is bent from my pre-harness-race-seat days.

OK, I'm obviously not familiar with your class of truck. That picture shows exactly what I would like to do on my F100, have the steering column go right through the bottom part of the dash and on out through the firewall. Right now I have it shoved up against the bottom of the dash. But that is already I large change when you take into account that in stock configuration F100's have the steering column exiting the cab somewhere between your ankles! And that does indeed lead to a "bus-like" steering wheel configuration, as can be see on countless hot-rodded F100's around the country. Fine for just tooling around, but not conducive to performance style driving.

Gustave

[bovey]

Additionally, over the last 15 years or so I've spent time studying the way professional race car drivers set up their cockpits (steering wheel, shifters, pedals). I maintained a website back in the early-mid 2000's for performance BMW's and I had a section dedicated to cockpit ergonomics. Most of the pictures came from "Racecar Engineering" and "Race Tech" magazines (both from England) and focused on F1, World Endurance, DTM, Touring Cars and World Rally. These drivers all had their steering wheels positioned so that the center of the wheel was somewhere between their sternum and their collarbone, and almost vertical. It was also located pretty close to the body, such that with their hands at 3 and 9 o'clock the elbows were at their sides. Sprint Cup is similar except their steering wheels are large so they mount them a bit lower so that they can still see. A thread is worthless without pics so:







Gustave

I appreciate your ramblings. Bring it on. I was reading about endurance, NASCAR, etc type ergonomics with the steering wheel closer as you mentioned. They do it for a reason - driver fatigue. With the steering wheel closer to the body, in some NASCAR set-ups they can almost rest their entire forearm on the wheel?!?! They created this driving position so the driver can engage core muscle groups instead of using their arms. Interesting stuff.

Thanks for the constructive reply.

[bovey]

Some progress.

Started tearing out everything, I'll bring back what is needed, as needed. The wiring will all be replaced, so it's gone too. I'm taking out things that I put in when I was 18. The ground wire that almost delayed my 1997 Hot Rod Power Tour trip? That sucker was tight, I must have been angry when I finally figured that was the problem many moons ago...

I am weighing things as I take them off, I'll report back with photos and numbers soon.



Part of the thinking of stripping it down bare is trying to get the weight down. Based on the pre-build numbers, I need to move or loose 400 lbs off the front. The truck will still be heavy, but at least it will be balanced. You gotta start somewhere.

In other news, the new transmission has landed. A full-on IMSA prepared Tranzilla t56, this one comes from a Pratte and Miller Z28R. Close-ratio, carbon fiber synchros, tougher gears, rated at 1200 HP / 1000 ft/lbs. Sexy. Sexy. Sexy. To put it mildly, I'm excited about this. A full blue printed rebuild is included with the purchase, I have this for mock-up.


I am very fortunate that a local race team has been following my progress and wants to help out, they also gave me some shifters to try for fitment. I believe the stock one is a GM GTO piece. They have moved on from the Z28Rs, so they have some spare stuff lying around that is useless to them.


They also had this spare rad and oil cooler, it's a NASCAR piece, and would you believe is almost the identical size of a stock C10 rad? It's more "direct fit" than the last "direct fit" aluminum rad I bought. Even my twin Spal fan set-up fits better.




I doubt the rad is going in the stock location. I also need to figure out if this rad is going to give me trouble later on. It's sexy and it's a wonderful addition to my build and plans, but if I ever need to replace it new... I may need mortgage my house. Ex-race car parts are a great value, but new they make my wallet wince.

[andrewb70]

Nice progress Mark!

Will you be at LS Fest (not with the truck but for fun...)?

Andrew

[bovey]

Nice progress Mark!

Will you be at LS Fest (not with the truck but for fun...)?

Andrew

I don't know. I've thought about it. The gang as SDPC has asked me to come down for a visit too. I'm also trying to get down to another of Ron's workshops as well... Also looking at driving schools in the US, as I need to lock down some seat time while the truck is out of commission.

Lots to sort out. I had a pile of fun last year.

[andrewb70]

I don't know. I've thought about it. The gang as SDPC has asked me to come down for a visit too. I'm also trying to get down to another of Ron's workshops as well... Also looking at driving schools in the US, as I need to lock down some seat time while the truck is out of commission.

Lots to sort out. I had a pile of fun last year.

Make the trip down. We can hang out more and enjoy some adult beverages together.

Andrew

[bovey]

Make the trip down. We can hang out more and enjoy some adult beverages together.

Floated a few options past my wife. Bowling Green (LS Fest), Fort Worth (Ron Sutton Work Shop), Las Vegas (Ron Sutton, SEMA combo) and said pick 1 or 2. She's doing some homework, but this might happen. Will update. I'm more than likely going to PRI again this year, that is such a nerdy show.

[Ethereal]

Have you gone through the motions of comparing R&P to the stock steering box system? I'm on the fence, and I think for me the benefits of R&P boil down to weight savings and less wear points.

[bovey]

Have you gone through the motions of comparing R&P to the stock steering box system? I'm on the fence, and I think for me the benefits of R&P boil down to weight savings and less wear points.

For me it's 100% R&P. Just not yet.

From what I know, the fastest bolt on box is 14:1. I have an 14:1 AGR set-up and love it, it's just not fast enough. I even like the feel of my set-up. People claim R&P has a better feel, but I don't have enough personal experience to weigh in on that debate.

NOTE: you can get faster boxes, but they are for inside frame rail applications. This era of truck is outside the frame rail.

It's a costly change and very easy to get wrong. The geometry has to be correct to get the desired end result. The only way I'd go R&P on this generation of truck is with a full IFS clip like No Limit, DSE or Roadster Shop, OR if you did a full chassis from No Limit or RS. On this note, has anyone seen the RS products driven in anger, like consistently in anger?

IMHO, again... IMHO... unless you go all the way to make sure the geometry is correct, I question the cost and effort. The AGR set-up is a great solution that has tremendous bang for the buck AND it 100% bolt-on reliable performance in MY experience.

Please others, weigh in.

[bovey]

Most of the teardown is complete. I forgot how long this takes when you are trying NOT to break stuff. Talk about having room to work.



GOOD NEWS: I now have in my possession a solve for a massive problem.

The parking brake. It's been a total pain in the butt.

By law, we are required a mechanical parking brake. Most try to get by with either a:

1) Line-loc
2) Hydraulic p-brake
3) old running shoe

None of these work for me and I strangely enjoy the challenge of making this thing legal and emissions friendly.

After a lot of digging, I found these. I noticed them on a few monster builds and a few Vipers. It took me forever to track them down to a company called IPSCO in Colorado.



I spoke to the owner, his name is Mark. Nice guy. He's been making these for 18 years for this exact purpose - people who want to go fast or used hardcore parts on the street, but NEED a parking brake. AND THEY ARE FULL FLOATING, mechanical at that.

I must say the quality of these did not disappoint and the price point is more than fair. He offers a variety of brackets as well.



I have yet to weight just the caliper, but Mark says it's about 2 lbs. The unit as photographed with the backing plate and cable mount came in at 3.4 lbs. There is a specific Right and Left side.

They are bigger than you think. Coke can for scale.

[Dr G]

Have you seen those setups where they attach a small disc to the differential yoke and fasten the mechanical caliper to the housing? That way you only need one parking brake setup instead of two.

Gustave

[bovey]

Have you seen those setups where they attach a small disc to the differential yoke and fasten the mechanical caliper to the housing? That way you only need one parking brake setup instead of two.

Yes, I did look at them. However, the worst kind of weight to add to a vehicle is rotating mass. Not all mass is created equal - static, unsprung and rotating are evaluated differently. The static mass of what I choose is far better than adding weight to on the housing. It's a double whammy, adding rotating mass AND unsprung mass.

Most of the housing P-brakes are designed for Street Rods, and my intention and use is very far away from that.

[Dr G]

Yes, I did look at them. However, the worst kind of weight to add to a vehicle is rotating mass. Not all mass is created equal - static, unsprung and rotating are evaluated differently. The static mass of what I choose is far better than adding weight to on the housing. It's a double whammy, adding rotating mass AND unsprung mass.

Most of the housing P-brakes are designed for Street Rods, and my intention and use is very far away from that.

Sure, sure, rotating mass. Though what I had in mind would be of little consequence in that regard. Assuming that we are talking about a "parking brake" and not an "emergency brake", then a very small disc could suffice, since thermal issues would be of no regard. So something like this little thing I saw on the Wilwood site would work:



I had imagined this disc combined with the one of the trick little calipers you discovered. I do not know of that caliper could work with such a narrow disc though. And of course all of this would require some fabrication. I'm not sure there is really any advantage really other than some slight reduction in unsprung weight in single wheel bump, and it's kind of cool.

But maybe the way you are going is closer to a bolt on deal which makes it more straight forward (faster to completion), which is worth a lot. I'm always drawn to the road less travelled.

Gustave

[kingcrunch]

Personally i am not too fond of having the emergency brake act on the drive shaft. Drop it and gone is your emergency brake and parking brake.