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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Waterloo, Ia
      Posts
      1,409

      Cageless 5pt harness?

      Does anyone make a nice cageless harness for auto x? Im not caging my GTO but i would like to be able to stick a 5 point harness in there for track days. I think I saw Project Olds from PHR had something like that but I cannot recall who made them....

      -Nick
      -1967 GTO I drive and race
      -Build threads:
      -http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615847&page=23
      -https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...project-thread



    2. #2
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      St George Utah
      Posts
      1,243
      Country Flag: United States
      THERE IS NO WAY to do it and make the car safe. either use the stock belts or do it right. you cant run the shoulder harnesses to anything but the cross bar and still be safe. even then placement of the mount is critical. I was just reading something the other day think about this. if your 150lb and hit something going 30mph your body will hit the steering wheel, dash or what ever with a fore of 4500 lbs. 30MPH !!!!
      MIGHT want to make sure your seat belts are mounted correctly
      Blake Foster
      www.speedtechperformance.com
      435-628-4300
      St. George Utah.
      it's always sunny here.

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Traverse City, MI
      Posts
      574
      Country Flag: United States
      I thought I saw some that were mounted to a reinforced package tray? Obviously the standard package tray wont do.

      Regardless, mounting the harness to your seat bolts is not acceptable.
      Project thread - https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...ouring-Project
      IG - @tc_chevelle


    4. #4
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
      Location
      Roanoke (FortWorth) Texas
      Posts
      786
      I went ahead welded in a removable harness bar in mine. No cage, just the bar. But still... its said that you should not use a shoulder harness without a cage as you will have no protection in a rollover scenario.
      Chris

      Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Belle Plaine, MN
      Posts
      1,221
      Country Flag: United States
      I also went the harness bar route...I won't cage my 4-door wagon, so it's the next best option.
      Scott Parkhurst


      2011 Car Craft Real Street Eliminator Winner

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Mar 2007
      Location
      Florida
      Posts
      2,391
      Country Flag: United States
      A Schroth 4 point with ASM might be a better alternative than a 5 point traditional that requires a harness bar. http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Waterloo, Ia
      Posts
      1,409
      Quote Originally Posted by killer69 View Post
      THERE IS NO WAY to do it and make the car safe. either use the stock belts or do it right. you cant run the shoulder harnesses to anything but the cross bar and still be safe. even then placement of the mount is critical. I was just reading something the other day think about this. if your 150lb and hit something going 30mph your body will hit the steering wheel, dash or what ever with a fore of 4500 lbs. 30MPH !!!!
      MIGHT want to make sure your seat belts are mounted correctly
      Im confused. 47 year old stock Pontiac lap belts are safer than brand new 4 or 5 pt belts that are anchored to the stock locations, across the lap, then adding 1 spot to anchor yourself back?? I would be putting these in to keep me in place for auto X days. I understand that they arent ideal in a rollover or a front end collision. A roll cage is great with a helmet on but sticking one in my GTO isnt an option and IMO makes the car less safe for daily street use without a helmet.
      -Nick
      -1967 GTO I drive and race
      -Build threads:
      -http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615847&page=23
      -https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...project-thread


    8. #8
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Waterloo, Ia
      Posts
      1,409
      Quote Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
      A Schroth 4 point with ASM might be a better alternative than a 5 point traditional that requires a harness bar. http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4
      Those look like the hot ticket....and they are DOT approved.
      -Nick
      -1967 GTO I drive and race
      -Build threads:
      -http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615847&page=23
      -https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...project-thread


    9. #9
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Waterloo, Ia
      Posts
      1,409
      Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
      I went ahead welded in a removable harness bar in mine. No cage, just the bar. But still... its said that you should not use a shoulder harness without a cage as you will have no protection in a rollover scenario.
      How are they any worse than 47 y/o lap belts?
      -Nick
      -1967 GTO I drive and race
      -Build threads:
      -http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=615847&page=23
      -https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...project-thread


    10. #10
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      How high are your shoulders above the tops of your seat backs? That is what kept be from getting the Schroth ASM Rally harness. My shoulders are 5-6" above the seat back and that is not the ideal situation for shoulder harnesses pointed back down at the back seat bottom.

      Also, do some reading on submarining under lap belts in a collision. With just a lap belt, your torso folds forward, lap belt keeps your butt in place. If you have a shoulder harness but no submarine belts, the shoulder harness pulls the lap belt up, the shoulder harness keeps your torso back and your butt slides under the lap belt and internal injuries are worse from the lap belt.

      There are better ways to describe it, but I hope that helps paint the picture. I'm in the same boat, I won't track day my car anymore until I fix it...but I am not convinced to do to my car what it takes to fix it correctly.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      Houston, TX
      Posts
      1,193
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      How high are your shoulders above the tops of your seat backs? That is what kept be from getting the Schroth ASM Rally harness. My shoulders are 5-6" above the seat back and that is not the ideal situation for shoulder harnesses pointed back down at the back seat bottom.

      Also, do some reading on submarining under lap belts in a collision. With just a lap belt, your torso folds forward, lap belt keeps your butt in place. If you have a shoulder harness but no submarine belts, the shoulder harness pulls the lap belt up, the shoulder harness keeps your torso back and your butt slides under the lap belt and internal injuries are worse from the lap belt.

      There are better ways to describe it, but I hope that helps paint the picture. I'm in the same boat, I won't track day my car anymore until I fix it...but I am not convinced to do to my car what it takes to fix it correctly.
      ^^ same thought. I read somewhere that if the back strap is mounted too low (ie rear seat belt mounting location), the straps potential can compress your spine in a collision, even in a low speed setting such as auto-x.
      Tu Ho
      Firebird V2-LS swap

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Location
      New York, NY
      Posts
      458
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
      A Schroth 4 point with ASM might be a better alternative than a 5 point traditional that requires a harness bar. http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4
      Just because it doesn't require a bar to mount doesn't mean it is a good idea to use without rollover protection. Still have the same issue of being held upright in the event of a rollover.

      I am personally installing a Schroth 4 point with ASM along with sub belts to make it a 6 point. However, it is still important to have a roll bar if you are using any sort of solution that involves not being able to lean forward.

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      St George Utah
      Posts
      1,243
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO View Post
      Im confused. 47 year old stock Pontiac lap belts are safer than brand new 4 or 5 pt belts that are anchored to the stock locations, across the lap, then adding 1 spot to anchor yourself back?? I would be putting these in to keep me in place for auto X days. I understand that they arent ideal in a rollover or a front end collision. A roll cage is great with a helmet on but sticking one in my GTO isnt an option and IMO makes the car less safe for daily street use without a helmet.
      Sorry I am not saying that the "Belts" are not better just the fact that with out a roll bar with a cross bar to correctly mount the shoulder harnesses is not the way to go. as for the lap belts remember also that they are NOT DOT approved either
      Blake Foster
      www.speedtechperformance.com
      435-628-4300
      St. George Utah.
      it's always sunny here.

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      St George Utah
      Posts
      1,243
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO View Post
      Those look like the hot ticket....and they are DOT approved.
      But even those you need a roll bar with a cross bar to mount correctly.
      Blake Foster
      www.speedtechperformance.com
      435-628-4300
      St. George Utah.
      it's always sunny here.

    15. #15
      Join Date
      May 2002
      Location
      Northern California
      Posts
      10,715
      Country Flag: Bosnia Herzegovina
      Quote Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO View Post
      Does anyone make a nice cageless harness for auto x? Im not caging my GTO but i would like to be able to stick a 5 point harness in there for track days. I think I saw Project Olds from PHR had something like that but I cannot recall who made them....

      Be safe, get yourself a removable harness bar made.
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      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    16. #16
      Join Date
      Aug 2011
      Location
      Clearwater/FL
      Posts
      512
      Country Flag: United States
      Bolt in 6 point bar...
      Or a welded in 6 point... Banging your dome off a well padded bar surely can't be any worse than banging it on a non padded pillar. Just my .02...
      85 monte, drift project- small block t5 and 8.8
      88 Blazer sbc
      05 300c

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Jun 2013
      Location
      Colon, Michigan
      Posts
      217
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      Be safe, get yourself a removable harness bar made.
      I'm looking to do something very similar to this in my C10 for AutoX purposes, how well has it worked out for you?
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      -Mike





    18. #18
      Join Date
      Mar 2014
      Location
      Yuma, AZ
      Posts
      635
      Country Flag: United States
      The Schroth ASM 4 point harness is designed to work without a sub belt. They say on the site that one of the shoulder straps is designed to stretch which lets your torso move like if you had a stock 3 point system.
      Nelson
      1969 Chevelle "Cone Smasher" Family Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...uot?highlight=

      1984 "Rustang" GT, 5.0, 5 Speed Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...T-(Slow-Build)

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Sep 2015
      Location
      Rockvale TN
      Posts
      402
      Country Flag: United States
      Leaning towards the Corbeau 3-point atm... http://soloracer.com/corbeau3ptret.html I really don't care it's not DOT approved...has to be better than the current lap belt only in my '67 El Camino. I like the feature where you may "lock" the retracting mechanism for the times you really want to be snugged in the seat. Rear anchor position/method yet to be determined.

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Fredericksburg, VA.
      Posts
      3,155
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by HandOverFist View Post
      Leaning towards the Corbeau 3-point atm... http://soloracer.com/corbeau3ptret.html I really don't care it's not DOT approved...has to be better than the current lap belt only in my '67 El Camino. I like the feature where you may "lock" the retracting mechanism for the times you really want to be snugged in the seat. Rear anchor position/method yet to be determined.
      What's the advantage of the Corbeau belt? The Schroth Rallye-3 is a similar configuration and is DOT legal.

      https://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-3
      Steve Hayes
      "Dust Off"
      68 Camaro

      Given sufficient initial acceleration, even pigs can fly!

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