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    1. #101
      Join Date
      Aug 2006
      Location
      Nashville TN
      Posts
      771
      Quote Originally Posted by 1966longroof View Post
      Brian, your a man of few words. But makes sense.

      (rules make half happly and the other half pi_sed off)
      Thanks David, I plan on spending alot more time this year helping people get faster in a safe and controlled manner and not worry about what the timer says.

      Brian Finch
      Pro-touring Hero

      The Proof is on the Pavement

      Sponsored by Baer Brakes, JRI Shocks, Pennzoil, Tremec, Magnaflow, Centerforce, AFCO Racing, Kurt Urban Performance, Amercian Powertrain, Forgeline, Holley, and of course BFG.

      For the best engine money can buy please visit http://www.kurturbanperformance.com/


      Authorized dealer for Baer, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, Vintage Air, Motorstate Distributing, Wilwood Engineering, American Autowire, Forgeline, Holley, Afco,

      Contact brian@finchperformance for special Pro-Touring.com member pricing

      www.hotrodtransformations.com


    2. #102
      Join Date
      Sep 2010
      Location
      Beach Park IL
      Posts
      2,838
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      An easy way to get back to the fun side of things, is to throw out the stop watches and just enjoy some time on the track burning up tires.
      I don't disagree but then how do you gauge improvement? For me the fun is in improving and doing it better than the last lap. I don't care if I beat you, Kyle, Popp or anyone else that shows up as long as I am faster at the end of the day than I was at the beginning.
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    3. #103
      Join Date
      Nov 2005
      Location
      Central California
      Posts
      2,050
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SicMonte View Post
      ooohhh....that just happened!!!

      Mary...are you going to take this??? hehehehe
      I've been muzzled ... can't comment much more than this.

      Mary
      mpozzi . . . '73 Camaro RS, '69 Camaro SCCA/Trans-Am vintage racer, and a 1989 R7U 1LE Players Challenge car.

      "STICK, you B*TCH!!!!!!"

      "It's not a horse. You can't train it!! "


    4. #104
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      Central CA USA
      Posts
      6,108
      Country Flag: United States
      There are phone apps & other devices that can record your lap times.
      67 Camaro RS that will be faster than anything Mary owns.

    5. #105
      Join Date
      Aug 2006
      Location
      Nashville TN
      Posts
      771
      Quote Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift View Post
      I don't disagree but then how do you gauge improvement? For me the fun is in improving and doing it better than the last lap. I don't care if I beat you, Kyle, Popp or anyone else that shows up as long as I am faster at the end of the day than I was at the beginning.
      You will know you are getting better when the laps get smoother, you dont have to fight the car around the course and your able to take it deeper into the turns before braking. When you take a corner just right you can feel it.

      The main point I was making is that the driving is just an excuse for us to get together. Dont let the timers take away from the original aim for most, To have fun.
      Brian Finch
      Pro-touring Hero

      The Proof is on the Pavement

      Sponsored by Baer Brakes, JRI Shocks, Pennzoil, Tremec, Magnaflow, Centerforce, AFCO Racing, Kurt Urban Performance, Amercian Powertrain, Forgeline, Holley, and of course BFG.

      For the best engine money can buy please visit http://www.kurturbanperformance.com/


      Authorized dealer for Baer, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, Vintage Air, Motorstate Distributing, Wilwood Engineering, American Autowire, Forgeline, Holley, Afco,

      Contact brian@finchperformance for special Pro-Touring.com member pricing

      www.hotrodtransformations.com

    6. #106
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Cincinnati Ohio
      Posts
      1,060
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      An easy way to get back to the fun side of things, is to throw out the stop watches and just enjoy some time on the track burning up tires.

      So true. But I think times are still very helpful.
      1972 Nova Ridetech, Forgeline, Falken Tires, Wilwood, Bowler Performance Transmission, Lingenfelter Performance Engineering.

    7. #107
      Join Date
      Sep 2008
      Location
      Jacksonville, Florida
      Posts
      629
      Country Flag: United States
      All this sounds great and will work the first few years, and then like everything else, who has the most money wins.
      Just a suggestion, but when I raced karts, they had multiple classes. Each class had a minimum allowed lap time. Go faster, and your in the next class, all the way to unlimited. This keeps it fair and fun for everyone and keeps the money from taking over all but the unlimited class.
      Their are still those that will sand bag and lay back on the straights, but it is VERY difficult to bracket race a one time weekend use course.
      Craig Scholl
      CJD Automotive, LLC
      Jacksonville, Florida
      904-400-1802
      www.cjdautomotive.com

      "I own a Mopar, I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification."

    8. #108
      Join Date
      Jul 2008
      Location
      Southern Indiana
      Posts
      22
      Country Flag: United States

      Ultimate Street Car Association

      Intresting

    9. #109
      Join Date
      Sep 2006
      Location
      Southern Indiana
      Posts
      4,699
      Country Flag: United States
      So the minimum weights blow one of my cars out of the water as its factory curb weight was at/below the minimum.
      Why not no more than a say a 20% reduction of car over lowest factory recorded weight. THEN factor for V8s, forced induction, weight reduction panels can only be bolt on items like hoods, fenders, properly made doors, trunk lids, bumpers. That sort of thing. THEN require them to add weights too meet minimum standards.
      Just saying, %age off stock weights make more sense.
      Lee Abel
      AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

      1977 Chevy Monza 2+2:Project "Cheap Trick"
      1978 C10 Long bed , On air and trailer puller
      2006 Buell Blast ,Just a bike to ride and for mileage
      1966 Caprice 4dr Sports Roof fact.327/now 350/SOON 454???? Project "II Old,,,ZERO BUDGET OR LESS CAPRICE!"

    10. #110
      Join Date
      Jul 2010
      Location
      Sacramento, CA
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      1,214
      Country Flag: United States
      My thoughts on the rules.

      Rule 1 : We all know who this is aimed at, and is very poorly worded and excludes a huge segment.

      Rule 8 : The SCCA words this as "publicly available" on like march 31st of the year of competition. I run a tire that is not commercially available, it is manufactured by Hoosier for Continental for the CSCC races, but it is available from resalers to the public so it is legal for SCCA. I dont think adding a date of like Jan 31st is going to affect competition and will keep things fair. I know for a fact that an entire conex container of tires that are new to the 200TW wars just showed up in the port from Japan. and these tires will have a commercial release in the middle of the USCA season. It wouldnt be fair to let someone like me that already has a set of these tires to compete on them if they offer a unfair advantage even though they were for public sale a week before an event. Shaving and heat cycling tires like Tire Rack offers is much safer, more on this in the next comment.

      Rule 9 : I have talked with engineers at length about this. One of the main factors in a tire being unsafe in a track enviroment is being brand new. The first time a tire heats up it finishes the cure process. There are long chains of molecules that expand, break, and re form after the first heat cycle. Every subsequent heat cycle will repeat this process until the traction falls off sharply. Tires are manufactured in a mold and have mold release in them so they can get out (think of Pam) and getting the "stupid" off tires is important to safetey. with a Time on the shelf matters, as any tire not heat cycled within a year of manufacture will never reach its potential, however it is not unsafe. Being extreemly conservative Bridgestone gave my work guidlines of fire years, and were talking about cars that run 24 hours a day, at race car speeds on the street, in vastly different weather conditions. 5 years is a conservative number.

      Rule 12 : Ban all tire warmers, its in the spirit of the events IMO.

      Rule 20-21 : So I am banned from winning, as are a lot of people in this forum. This "significant" portion of this is REALLY ambiguous. Guys like Howell, Finch, the Tuckers were all on R U Faster and I guarantee they were paid very well, that makes them pros. Other drivers are sponsored by parts I consider significant (as a Baer big brake kit costs more than the car im running this year), so I would say this excludes them? Wouldn't everyone in run group A be a pro by definition(possession of a comp license, or the credentials to do so)?

      I am buying a seat in the race that weekend, and schedule allowing I can help with tech if you guys need it at laguna seca?
      -James

      1974 Z28 SCCA C Prepared
      1990 Firebird NASA CMC
      2005 Mustang GT SCCA F-Street (new for 2015)
      1989 Civic Si SCCA STC

    11. #111
      Join Date
      Jul 2001
      Location
      Calgary, AB
      Posts
      1,826
      Country Flag: Canada
      Quote Originally Posted by slo_z28 View Post
      rule 20-21 : So i am banned from winning, as are a lot of people in this forum. This "significant" portion of this is really ambiguous. guys like howell, finch, the tuckers were all on r u faster and i guarantee they were paid very well, that makes them pros. other drivers are sponsored by parts i consider significant (as a baer big brake kit costs more than the car im running this year), so i would say this excludes them? Wouldn't everyone in run group a be a pro by definition(possession of a comp license, or the credentials to do so)?

      I am buying a seat in the race that weekend, and schedule allowing i can help with tech if you guys need it at laguna seca?
      lol
      James
      1967 Camaro RS - The OLC
      1984 Camaro GT1
      1989 Camaro 1LE - The BOC

    12. #112
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Location
      Hamilton, NJ
      Posts
      4,291
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by James OLC View Post
      lol
      Scott from NJ.

      Vent Windows Forever! ...

      Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold
      I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors

    13. #113
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Macon, Ga.
      Posts
      8,085
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SLO_Z28 View Post
      My thoughts on the rules.



      Rule 20-21 : Guys like Howell, Finch, the Tuckers were all on R U Faster and I guarantee they were paid very well, that makes them pros.
      LOL, Funniest thing I have read in a while and absolutely not true.
      1.Money or payment thereof certainly didn't make me a "PRO" in anyone's mind.
      2.While I am bounded by contract not to talk "money received" for my part of the show, let me assure you of this..... I can guarantee you that you made more money that 14 days than I did filming the show.
      Bill

      Trailers are for BOATS!

    14. #114
      Join Date
      Nov 2005
      Location
      Central California
      Posts
      2,050
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SLO_Z28 View Post

      Rule 12 : Ban all tire warmers, its in the spirit of the events IMO.
      HOLY CRAP!!! I've finally found that ONE THING James and I agree on.

      Mary Pozzi
      mpozzi . . . '73 Camaro RS, '69 Camaro SCCA/Trans-Am vintage racer, and a 1989 R7U 1LE Players Challenge car.

      "STICK, you B*TCH!!!!!!"

      "It's not a horse. You can't train it!! "


    15. #115
      Join Date
      Oct 2012
      Location
      British Columbia
      Posts
      614
      Country Flag: Canada
      Last night I made a post and then took it down because I didn't want to ruffle any feathers. I really don't have involvement in this issue, because I will most likely never get to one of these events. But, after receiving a very nice PM from another member who saw it I am going to redo this to best of my memory today and please realize I'm just sharing my thoughts on this.


      "Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post


      I couldn't agree more. There is a strong movement to build faster, higher tech cars with race level design & performance (myself included) ... and a strong movement by a different group to keep these cars more pro touring.

      To make these events financially successful requires strong & varied participation. You don't want to end up with 20 classes with 5 cars in each class. But you don't want to have 100 cars in 1 class, or after awhile it will be 80, then 60, etc. as people become disillusioned and frustrated with the performance gap.

      I believe there needs to be approximately 5 categories, different, but not too different, from what Good Guys does with their AutoX series. My thoughts on classes/categories would be ...

      1. Pro Class
      * Full safety equipment required, including roll cage & fire suppression system
      * Unlimited performance rules, except TW200 tires
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      2. Street Car Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3000# minimum weight without driver (or 3150# with driver)
      * 1950-1990 American car body styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      3. Street Truck Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3100# minimum weight without driver (or 3250# with driver)
      * 1955 & newer American truck body styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      4. Supercar Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3000# minimum weight without driver (or 3150# with driver)
      * Open to all years, makes & models foreign & domestic
      * Must be a recognized factory production car
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      5. Pro Touring Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3200# minimum weight without driver (or 3350# with driver)
      * 1950-1990 American body car or truck styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * 275 maximum tire size
      * Air conditioning must be functional ?
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      Ok ... please don't flame me ... but I would like constructive opinions & viewpoints. Not that I or most of us on here have any control over how they run their events, but I suspect they're watching this thread and value input from people who actually plan to participate.


      There is a theme that seems to be running throughout this thread and that is one of driver's ability.
      Mary posted earlier that the best money we can spend to go faster is in our own driver ability and I agree with this statement 100%. Rather than spending Oodles more cash on making the cars faster we ought to be spending it on how we can get ourselves around the track quicker. But there is, in my opinion, a bit of a disconnect on how we divide the drivers by only looking at their cars. We need to take the drivers ability and experience into consideration when said driver shows up an event with their car and the intention of racing it. I’ve posted on a couple of other threads that we really should be looking at a graduated progressive hierarchy and how the drivers work their way up into the top classes similar to what the NHRA does. I’m a drag racer from over a decade ago and that is my experience and I’ve always built my cars to an appropriate class. That’s where I think we may have an issue, especially for guys like myself who are in the middle of building our cars.

      For example; If I show up at an event with my ZL1 with its big tires, big brakes and Supercharged horsepower would you put me in the class with the big boys on the track? I sure as heck hope not because I have no business being out there with the likes of Pro drivers and at the speeds they drive at. I would be a hindrance and only get in the way regardless of my car. Do you remember the SLAP heard around the world on RUFTR? That’s the kind of mistakes a rookie like me makes because we just don’t know any better regardless of the performance ability of my car.

      There are some awesome cars being built on this website and I am really enjoy the journey in both building my car and watching others. But that is no way an endorsement that I want to be out on the track at high speeds with any of them if they don’t know what they are doing. That includes myself because I am willing to bet that 90% of us have no business being out there in our homemade super-cars driving at those speeds. In all honesty do any of you Pro-Drivers (I mean that in the nicest way to folks like Brian, Bill, Mark, Bret, Mary, Dave, Larry, etc.) really want to be stuck behind my slow a$$ driving around a track as you lap me and folks like me who don’t understand what a line is, and not knowing what I’m going to do next? I think not.

      There HAS to be a class for the Pro-type drivers and some for Novices and Intimidates regardless of what car we show up in. I’m learning a lot from Ron’s safety thread and its changing the direction of my build. My question to you is do you want to be on the track with me as I “learn” how to race just because I showed up in a car with all the race qualified goodies on it. Just because I can build it or buy it doesn’t mean I have any clue how to race and drive it.

      On the subject of having fun. It’s one thing to say throw out the timer and we are all here to enjoy ourselves and another to get blown away. I’m all for having a good time but nobody likes to get blown out of the water when they are having fun on the track or anything else for that matter. We all want to be close but the reality is that’s never going to happen with the different driving abilities of the people on the track and their cars. There needs to be a division of the cars and drivers into appropriate classes for everyone to be competitive and keep it close. Just like the NHRA does with classes and progression through those classes. As you get faster you move up through the classes and the safety requirements change so you are ready with both skill and safety requirements relevant to the speeds you are going. The whole fun thing will only carry you so far, for example; when Canada and the USA play hockey, we all like to have a close game but, when Canada blows the USA out 25-2 there is no enjoyment in it.

      Just my thoughts on the subject and I hope to someday get to an event and watch all of you rip up the track and have fun, safely.
      Last edited by Todd in Vancouver; 01-03-2014 at 02:29 PM.
      Todd
      '14 ZL1, 6 speed and 6.2L of Super Charged Awesome!
      '67 Camaro SS in process. A long, slow, expensive trip...


      How hard can it be...

      Project Obsession
      https://www.pro-touring.com/showthre...ject-Obsession

    16. #116
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      262
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SLO_Z28 View Post
      My thoughts on the rules.
      Rule 20-21 : Wouldn't everyone in run group A be a pro by definition(possession of a comp license, or the credentials to do so)?
      I highly doubt this. I had 2 individuals at my house on New Years Day getting some parts off a parts car for their track toy. Both have competition licenses as they race things that are certified to do the 1/4 mile in under 8 seconds. Neither of them make any money from driving their cars at the track though. At least not officially at the track. But the speeds require certain certs to be out there.

      As for the rest of the rules, there are a couple of bullets I'd like to see more details on. And I'd really like to see the tech card in advance of registering but none of these rules really surprised me. Some of them are less strict than the SCCA and ASCS guidelines we've been working to for a few years.
      Tom Pichette

      Pit crew for Valerie Pichette and her 1988 Pontiac TransAm GTA "DragonLady"

    17. #117
      Join Date
      Jul 2001
      Location
      Calgary, AB
      Posts
      1,826
      Country Flag: Canada
      The whole Pro vs. Joe thing is being seriously overthought... I thought that the USCA's rules were pretty self explanatory and I would guess that James is being slightly/deliberately obtuse. If you wanted to make it easy to follow then you could have simply stated "If you made more money in cash and/or parts last year then you spent then you are a PRO." I think on that basis it is safe to say that nobody in this little community is a Pro. But then what? Bring your tax forms to tech?
      James
      1967 Camaro RS - The OLC
      1984 Camaro GT1
      1989 Camaro 1LE - The BOC

    18. #118
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      1,240
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by James OLC View Post
      The whole Pro vs. Joe thing is being seriously overthought... I thought that the USCA's rules were pretty self explanatory and I would guess that James is being slightly/deliberately obtuse. If you wanted to make it easy to follow then you could have simply stated "If you made more money in cash and/or parts last year then you spent then you are a PRO." I think on that basis it is safe to say that nobody in this little community is a Pro. But then what? Bring your tax forms to tech?
      "If competitive driving is not currently, or ever has been, your primary or significant source of income, you are an amateur."

      I didn't find the rule hard to interpret, but I did find its existence a bit odd. Are we that afraid that Leh Keen might show up or something?
      Brett H.

      1979 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am
      1991 Mazda Miata
      2005 Ford Mustang GT

      1987 Ford Mustang GT - Sold 06-29-2014
      1988 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera - RIP 9-17-2011
      1992 Chevrolet Corvette - Sold 10-12-2017

    19. #119
      Join Date
      Jul 2001
      Location
      Calgary, AB
      Posts
      1,826
      Country Flag: Canada
      Quote Originally Posted by 79-TA View Post
      "If competitive driving is not currently, or ever has been, your primary or significant source of income, you are an amateur."

      I didn't find the rule hard to interpret, but I did find its existence a bit odd. Are we that afraid that Leh Keen might show up or something?
      Having "raced" with Leh for the last four years... Yes. Yes I am.

      Most of the rules are carry overs from the OUSCI truly set where you did have pro drivers show up (or at least seriously talk about it). I remember turning to the guy beside me at the drivers meeting in 2010 and it taking a minute to register that it was Paul Tracy. You'd be surprised what some vendors would do to place well.
      James
      1967 Camaro RS - The OLC
      1984 Camaro GT1
      1989 Camaro 1LE - The BOC

    20. #120
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      Central CA USA
      Posts
      6,108
      Country Flag: United States
      Randy Pobst is at my house now building my Camaro...
      67 Camaro RS that will be faster than anything Mary owns.

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