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    1. #81
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
      [B]

      3. What other thoughts do you or anyone have to keep the costs in check and create classes that make sense to compete in?



      If this is ULTIMATE Street car why have any classes? Or restrictions other than the car be street legal? They have already said it will be open to ALL types of cars. If there's classes for PT guys and trucks would there also be classes for modern exotics, modern sports cars, cars with power adders or without? If you're going to start leveling the playing field with classes and restrictions on tire size, materials, weight etc. where does it stop? Who polices it? Who decides if a driver is a "pro"?

      I'd like to see this be an organization that draws the best of the best with few restrictions other than safety equipment and proof of previous track experience so the folks who go don't have to be concerned about running flat out on a road course in mega dollar machines while sharing it with first timers.

      Because this new series would draw the best of the best and most people can't afford the time/money to go to every event scheduled by various organizations it would probably pull some of the top contenders dominating the current events to do battle with top contenders from other areas of the car hobby.


    2. #82
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      Aug 2007
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      Roanoke (FortWorth) Texas
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      I think the OP was referring more to how do we compete on a points basis with the guys who can afford to make every event. Not so much the large difference between cars. Like the GG autocross series, just being fast enough didnt get you into the finals. You had to also acquire enough points to stay in the top. Thats a lot of travel time/money. So how does one compete in a National series on a regional budget. Hopefully, there will be recognition given to the regional guys as well. I like the GG model of classes. Once you reach Pro, you no longer compete in the Classes. "Pro" is your class. But also, rather than resetting Pro every year. Car/driver combinations stay in pro from one year to the next. Surely that Car/Driver Combo isnt going to make changes to be slower than the previous year.

      Now... Track safety is something completely different. If there is enough people the perhaps we can take the above GG model and split them into "Track Prepped" and "Track non-prepared" categorizes. This is where roll cage and other stringent safety requirements come into play. The "T-P" category gets the wide open track to play with. "T-NP" has chicanes or other method to keep the speeds down. Maybe even non competitive track driving. Parade laps or something.

      I think splitting off into Pro could be a good thing. It then becomes the "Main Event" for the rest of us in attendance.
      Chris

      Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

    3. #83
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post

      Now... Track safety is something completely different. If there is enough people the perhaps we can take the above GG model and split them into "Track Prepped" and "Track non-prepared" categorizes. This is where roll cage and other stringent safety requirements come into play. The "T-P" category gets the wide open track to play with. "T-NP" has chicanes or other method to keep the speeds down. Maybe even non competitive track driving. Parade laps or something.

      I think splitting off into Pro could be a good thing. It then becomes the "Main Event" for the rest of us in attendance.

      Ya know, that's a pretty good idea...
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    4. #84
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
      .

      Split them into "Track Prepped" and "Track non-prepared" categorizes. This is where roll cage and other stringent safety requirements come into play. The "T-P" category gets the wide open track to play with. "T-NP" has chicanes or other method to keep the speeds down. Maybe even non competitive track driving. Parade laps or something.

      I think splitting off into Pro could be a good thing. It then becomes the "Main Event" for the rest of us in attendance.
      I agree 100%! This was exactly what I was thinking..... All participants I think would love to see a "Main Event" type show between the top cars. I myself don't have a roll cage and only a 4-point harness BUT I am only running auto-crosses and no road courses so I feel all that isn't necessary with a 98% family street car..
      1986 Buick T-Type

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    5. #85
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      Quote Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
      If this is ULTIMATE Street car why have any classes? Or restrictions other than the car be street legal? They have already said it will be open to ALL types of cars. If there's classes for PT guys and trucks would there also be classes for modern exotics, modern sports cars, cars with power adders or without? If you're going to start leveling the playing field with classes and restrictions on tire size, materials, weight etc. where does it stop? Who polices it? Who decides if a driver is a "pro"?

      I'd like to see this be an organization that draws the best of the best with few restrictions other than safety equipment and proof of previous track experience so the folks who go don't have to be concerned about running flat out on a road course in mega dollar machines while sharing it with first timers.

      Because this new series would draw the best of the best and most people can't afford the time/money to go to every event scheduled by various organizations it would probably pull some of the top contenders dominating the current events to do battle with top contenders from other areas of the car hobby.

      Hi John,

      I think what you're asking for, is the way it is, and what is planned. Frankly, for my own personal car plans, that fits perfectly. My only concern is participation will taper off after the first few years as the participants with less competitive cars become frustrated.

      Are you planning to run the #14 car?


    6. #86
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
      I think the OP was referring more to how do we compete on a points basis with the guys who can afford to make every event. Not so much the large difference between cars. Like the GG autocross series, just being fast enough didnt get you into the finals. You had to also acquire enough points to stay in the top. Thats a lot of travel time/money. So how does one compete in a National series on a regional budget. Hopefully, there will be recognition given to the regional guys as well. I like the GG model of classes. Once you reach Pro, you no longer compete in the Classes. "Pro" is your class. But also, rather than resetting Pro every year. Car/driver combinations stay in pro from one year to the next. Surely that Car/Driver Combo isnt going to make changes to be slower than the previous year.

      Now... Track safety is something completely different. If there is enough people the perhaps we can take the above GG model and split them into "Track Prepped" and "Track non-prepared" categorizes. This is where roll cage and other stringent safety requirements come into play. The "T-P" category gets the wide open track to play with. "T-NP" has chicanes or other method to keep the speeds down. Maybe even non competitive track driving. Parade laps or something.

      I think splitting off into Pro could be a good thing. It then becomes the "Main Event" for the rest of us in attendance.
      Actually at the GG events if you had the fastest lap of the weekend you got an automatic invite to the finals in Scottsdale, accumulating points was simply another way of getting a spot.

      I think you're going to see very few if any people go to every event, I don't see it making financial sense even for a vendor to spend all of your marketing dollars on 1 single series. I think this will be regional participation due to the spread out geographical locations. The fact is, with USCA having the design element in this you will only have limited control over your placing based on performance, the design element is going to be an opinion based wild card that will skew the results.

    7. #87
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      I think USCA is making changes to the design portion to better represent the original intention of the category, prevent racecars from winning. If the indications I got at PRI are true, then it should work out quite well.
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    8. #88
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      I couldn't agree more. There is a strong movement to build faster, higher tech cars with race level design & performance (myself included) ... and a strong movement by a different group to keep these cars more pro touring.
      Why not both? Why does it have to be moar street or moar race? Striking that balance to satisfy an individual's needs is what this whole thing is about.

      To make these events financially successful requires strong & varied participation. You don't want to end up with 20 classes with 5 cars in each class. But you don't want to have 100 cars in 1 class, or after awhile it will be 80, then 60, etc. as people become disillusioned and frustrated with the performance gap.
      Disagree, the Motorstate Challenge has grown every year, it is safe, organized, and accessible. 4 classes to separate early and late cars and manufacturers are broke into their own early/late.

      1. Pro Class
      * Full safety equipment required, including roll cage & fire suppression system
      * Unlimited performance rules, except TW200 tires
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car
      This is vague, maybe on purpose, but is this the top of the heap? or the bottom. Licensed and insured is great but I would like to see "registered to driver or spouse" on their as well. Prevents hired shoes.......that's not what this is.

      2. Street Car Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3000# minimum weight without driver (or 3150# with driver)
      * 1950-1990 American car body styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car
      5 pts, will put a lot of people out, myself included.
      Minimum weights only encourage building to the minimum weight, saving weight is a rich mans game
      no year cut off, split them with abs/non abs
      if you can afford a carbon fiber body to race at a pro touring event for virtually nothing to win.....good for you! Bring it.
      Yep
      Yep

      I don't know anything about trucks, McGregor can fill you in on that.
      4. Supercar Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3000# minimum weight without driver (or 3150# with driver)
      * Open to all years, makes & models foreign & domestic
      * Must be a recognized factory production car
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      5. Pro Touring Class

      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3200# minimum weight without driver (or 3350# with driver)
      * 1950-1990 American body car or truck styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * 275 maximum tire size
      * Air conditioning must be functional ?
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car
      Nothing to add here that I didn't address earlier save for two things. I don't care for the max tire size at all. Maier has 315s on his car with a set of bolt on fenders. 70 mustangs and Camaros will both take 295s with DSE clips and minor sheet metal mods.

      I don't think AC should be required, but that is where USCAs new point system will help. By giving bonus points for having street car accessories like HVAC or a radio you earn points that tally up in the final scoring. Not subjective at all, do you have a heater _yes_ cool 1 point.

      I very much dislike rules, If they are not for my safety or someone elses safety, I don't see any reason to make things complicated. ESPECIALLY when both ASCS and USCA are pushing fun and good times above all else.
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    9. #89
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      Sep 2005
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      Quote Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift View Post

      I don't think AC should be required, but that is where USCAs new point system will help. By giving bonus points for having street car accessories like HVAC or a radio you earn points that tally up in the final scoring. Not subjective at all, do you have a heater _yes_ cool 1 point.
      I think the heater and A/C thing can easily get confusing, I am sure something like an All 'Vendor/sponsor car Class" would be Much more easy seeing as the vendors / Sponsor cars seem to be at the top at most events....This don't have to get crazy involved with rules and tire sizes to make something like this work....

      Quote Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift View Post

      I very much dislike rules, If they are not for my safety or someone elses safety, I don't see any reason to make things complicated. ESPECIALLY when both ASCS and USCA are pushing fun and good times above all else.
      I have attended Bills pro-touring events RTTH - (ASCS) for the past 9 years and speaking from a participants stand point and what I have heard from other participants while being at each one, I have heard people mention about having to compete against the Vendor /Sponsor cars from at least 3 different people per event.... Spoke to some others yesterday who have also heard the same thing from participants so I know I'm not the only one hearing this from people! I personally don't mind it but like any business, it's a smart thing to listen to the people who make the business possible in the first place. I don't see a separate class hurting anything at all, but actually making more people happy.... Just my thoughts.
      1986 Buick T-Type

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    10. #90
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post

      Hi John,

      I think what you're asking for, is the way it is, and what is planned. Frankly, for my own personal car plans, that fits perfectly. My only concern is participation will taper off after the first few years as the participants with less competitive cars become frustrated.

      Are you planning to run the #14 car?

      I would run The 14 Car if there isn't a 200 TW tire limit. I'd probably run Daytona because it's on my bucket list and Sebring because it's one of my favorite tracks.

      More and more people are running street cars on track and many have plans to do it eventually. Not just in the PT community but also other areas in motorsports. This would keep participation up for many years.

    11. #91
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      Quote Originally Posted by xxxturbo6 View Post
      I have attended Bills pro-touring events RTTH - (ASCS) for the past 9 years and speaking from a participants stand point and what I have heard from other participants while being at each one, I have heard people mention about having to compete against the Vendor /Sponsor cars from at least 3 different people per event.... Spoke to some others yesterday who have also heard the same thing from participants so I know I'm not the only one hearing this from people! I personally don't mind it but like any business, it's a smart thing to listen to the people who make the business possible in the first place. I don't see a separate class hurting anything at all, but actually making more people happy.... Just my thoughts.
      Not directed at you, you bring up good points so here is the other side.

      I thought the competition was supposed to be secondary to the fun? That is what all the other threads are saying. If that is the case then what does the classing really matter?

      3 people out of a 100 is very much a minority and in my experience is about the percentage of people that you just can't please any how.

      And define novice please, when do you stop being a novice? New to ASCS? your a novice, but Tony Stewart has never been there either. When you look at it like that, WE ARE ALL NOVICES. Anything that resembles a pro driver usually puts a whooping on the whole field, so as a community we have a lot to learn.

      As far as business goes, trying to please everyone typically results in pleasing no one.
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    12. #92
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      Dec 2010
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      Quote Originally Posted by xxxturbo6 View Post
      I have attended Bills pro-touring events RTTH - (ASCS) for the past 9 years and speaking from a participants stand point and what I have heard from other participants while being at each one, I have heard people mention about having to compete against the Vendor /Sponsor cars from at least 3 different people per event.... Spoke to some others yesterday who have also heard the same thing from participants so I know I'm not the only one hearing this from people! I personally don't mind it but like any business, it's a smart thing to listen to the people who make the business possible in the first place. I don't see a separate class hurting anything at all, but actually making more people happy.... Just my thoughts.
      I know I've mentioned it a few times at events that there are enough vendor/sponsor cars running that I don't see us winning the overall fastest time award. But, who knows, given enough track time, we might pull off a surprise or two somewhere along the line. The biggest factor on a lot of the autox courses isn't build level as much as seat time. And most of the sponsor/vendor drivers have us all beat in that category. But it also isn't so bad to finish 4th if the cars that beat your were the 3 of the shop cars. We've had a lot of fun finishing mid pack at events for the last 3 years and that's what really matters.
      Tom Pichette

      Pit crew for Valerie Pichette and her 1988 Pontiac TransAm GTA "DragonLady"

    13. #93
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      Man what have I started?? LOL. There's a lot of good info and comments in here!


      Not sure if you all knew this but back in 2004-2006 I ran a 1983 RX7 in the SCCA SPEC-7 class in the "Mid Atlantic Road Racing Series" (MARRS). I got the car turn key and race ready for $2500 and the driver even gave me his Sparco fire suit bc we were the same size. Score!! I had to attend two seperate, three day each, driving schools in order to get my SCCA competitive license and even then I had my "novice permit". I had to show my skill level and kind of prove myself to the SCCA before I could be a full blown member of the series. After a couple clean races I graduated and became a member of the series and then raced for points...when in my mind it was just fun and a great experiance. This was wheel to wheel racing, in a full caged car wearing a full fire suit, fixed back seat with a 5 point harness, nomex head sock/socks/shoes/gloves, with a neck restraint (HANS wasn't required back then). It was fun but TERRIFYING at the same time. For those of you who know Summit Point Raceway...imagine 30 cars heading to turn 1 at 110 mph...all within inches of each other. Yeah...clean your shorts worthy.

      All that being said I now have my monte carlo that I decided to build into a Pro Touring autox/road course car. It is fun but far far far from being really track worthy. I have made it safe but there's no way I would want to really push it out on a track. I have had it out on Summit Point, NJMP, and Mid Ohio and it is a handful to say the least, and my car is on the lower side of the pro touring cars on this site. I know my limits and my vehicles limits pretty well.

      I just really hope the USCA gets the safety rules, regulations and tech right! Seeing half these cars on a big track scares the crap out of me.
      Douglas Lutes
      1988 Monte Carlo SS

      "Never race anything you can't afford to set on fire and push off a cliff."

    14. #94
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post

      I couldn't agree more. There is a strong movement to build faster, higher tech cars with race level design & performance (myself included) ... and a strong movement by a different group to keep these cars more pro touring.

      To make these events financially successful requires strong & varied participation. You don't want to end up with 20 classes with 5 cars in each class. But you don't want to have 100 cars in 1 class, or after awhile it will be 80, then 60, etc. as people become disillusioned and frustrated with the performance gap.

      I believe there needs to be approximately 5 categories, different, but not too different, from what Good Guys does with their AutoX series. My thoughts on classes/categories would be ...

      1. Pro Class
      * Full safety equipment required, including roll cage & fire suppression system
      * Unlimited performance rules, except TW200 tires
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      2. Street Car Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3000# minimum weight without driver (or 3150# with driver)
      * 1950-1990 American car body styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      3. Street Truck Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3100# minimum weight without driver (or 3250# with driver)
      * 1955 & newer American truck body styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      4. Supercar Class
      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3000# minimum weight without driver (or 3150# with driver)
      * Open to all years, makes & models foreign & domestic
      * Must be a recognized factory production car
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      5. Pro Touring Class

      * Specific safety equipment required, including roll bar & 5-point harness
      * 3200# minimum weight without driver (or 3350# with driver)
      * 1950-1990 American body car or truck styles
      * No reproduction fiberglass or carbon fiber body shells
      * 275 maximum tire size
      * Air conditioning must be functional ?
      * Full street car trim including glass windshield, wipers, turn signals,
      * Must be licensed & insured as a street car

      Ok ... please don't flame me ... but I would like constructive opinions & viewpoints. Not that I or most of us on here have any control over how they run their events, but I suspect they're watching this thread and value input from people who actually plan to participate.


      If the so-called "Pros", aren't out to have Fun, they have a Problem


      T.C.
      Last edited by BMR Sales; 12-23-2013 at 09:06 AM.

    15. #95
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      Aug 2006
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      An easy way to get back to the fun side of things, is to throw out the stop watches and just enjoy some time on the track burning up tires.
      Brian Finch
      Pro-touring Hero

      The Proof is on the Pavement

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      For the best engine money can buy please visit http://www.kurturbanperformance.com/


      Authorized dealer for Baer, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, Vintage Air, Motorstate Distributing, Wilwood Engineering, American Autowire, Forgeline, Holley, Afco,

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    16. #96
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      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      An easy way to get back to the fun side of things, is to throw out the stop watches and just enjoy some time on the track burning up tires.
      I like it! I just want to drive my car. It would be fun to pass Mary on the track...
      67 Camaro RS that will be faster than anything Mary owns.

    17. #97
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      Quote Originally Posted by David Pozzi View Post
      I like it! I just want to drive my car. It would be fun to pass Mary on the track...
      ooohhh....that just happened!!!

      Mary...are you going to take this??? hehehehe
      Douglas Lutes
      1988 Monte Carlo SS

      "Never race anything you can't afford to set on fire and push off a cliff."

    18. #98
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      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      An easy way to get back to the fun side of things, is to throw out the stop watches and just enjoy some time on the track burning up tires.
      I had more fun following you around Spring Mountain at OUSCI than I had running on my own. I tell people you were trying you hardest to get away from me. LOL
      Chris

      Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

    19. #99
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      Quote Originally Posted by Finch View Post
      An easy way to get back to the fun side of things, is to throw out the stop watches and just enjoy some time on the track burning up tires.
      Brian, your a man of few words. But makes sense.

      (rules make half happly and the other half pi_sed off)
      David H. Amrine
      (USMC Retired)

      Boys drive fast on the street. But MEN prove how fast they are at the Track.

    20. #100
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      Aug 2006
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      Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
      I had more fun following you around Spring Mountain at OUSCI than I had running on my own. I tell people you were trying you hardest to get away from me. LOL
      You were stuck like glue, hope the bad lines did not throw you off during race time.
      Brian Finch
      Pro-touring Hero

      The Proof is on the Pavement

      Sponsored by Baer Brakes, JRI Shocks, Pennzoil, Tremec, Magnaflow, Centerforce, AFCO Racing, Kurt Urban Performance, Amercian Powertrain, Forgeline, Holley, and of course BFG.

      For the best engine money can buy please visit http://www.kurturbanperformance.com/


      Authorized dealer for Baer, Ridetech, Detroit Speed, Vintage Air, Motorstate Distributing, Wilwood Engineering, American Autowire, Forgeline, Holley, Afco,

      Contact brian@finchperformance for special Pro-Touring.com member pricing

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