Pro-Touring & Track Car Safety Discussion

[Ron Sutton]

Interesting subject. When this Pro-Touring thing got started, the goal was to build a classic car that rivaled late model muscle or sport cars. The primary use was road use and autocross. Now there are many cars built with supercar levels of power and IMO should have a full cage to have an adequate level of safety for road course use.



I have ridden in several of the DSE cars at a road course and it is a blast. But I have no roll bars in my Camaro because people use my backseat, especially my Granddaughter. But at least once a month my friends ask me when I'm taking my Camaro to a roadcourse, and sometimes call me chicken when I come up with excuses. For me the rational decision is to only autocross this car. Should I someday want to go road coarse racing, I'll get a track car or convert this one to a track car.

Great post Gary. I think this is a challenging dilemma for a lot of PT guys. I'm sure I don't the answer.

For the guys that are going to track their cars often, we need to be smart & protect ourselves.

[Ron Sutton]

It's an interesting thread. I'm not prepared though to call it, or John the definitive authority on the topics therein.

Hi True. Thanks for your input. I don't think I'm the definitive authority on race car safety, so I hope I haven't suggested that.

I do have a lot of experience protecting drivers in race cars, so I think I'm the right guy to start this thread. But each of us should gather the information & make our own informed decisions.

[Damn True]

Hi True. Thanks for your input. I don't think I'm the definitive authority on race car safety, so I hope I haven't suggested that.

I do have a lot of experience protecting drivers in race cars, so I think I'm the right guy to start this thread. But each of us should gather the information & make our own informed decisions.

I wasn't suggesting that. More discussion is better. More data is better. More experienced voices are.........better.

[Ron Sutton]

I wasn't suggesting that. More discussion is better. More data is better. More experienced voices are.........better.

No worries. I just didn't want to give off the wrong impression of my knowldedge.

Thanks for your great input as always.

[parsonsj]

For me the rational decision is to only Autocross this car. Should I someday want to go road course racing, I'll get a track car or convert this one to a track car.

I think that's the prudent course too, for actual racing.

How do folks feel about HPDEs (high performance driving events)? Like the NASA setup where drivers receive training (both classroom and track), before being allowed to drive by themselves, along with strict passing rules and etiquette, and no timed laps? Do folks consider that "racing"? Does that distinction matter?

(Ron, hope that fits in your thread )

[shortrack]

I think that's the prudent course too, for actual racing.

How do folks feel about HPDEs (high performance driving events)? Like the NASA setup where drivers receive training (both classroom and track), before being allowed to drive by themselves, along with strict passing rules and etiquette, and no timed laps? Do folks consider that "racing"? Does that distinction matter?

(Ron, hope that fits in your thread )

IMO if you're reaching speeds over 100mph be it on the track alone on a timed run or in all out competition dicing it with other cars I think you should be seriously considering a roll cage. My biggest fear is a mechanical failure like blowing out a tire, loss of brakes, grenading the engine and coating your rear tires with oil etc....then things like the pic below happen.

[Rod]

I think that's the prudent course too, for actual racing.

How do folks feel about HPDEs (high performance driving events)? Like the NASA setup where drivers receive training (both classroom and track), before being allowed to drive by themselves, along with strict passing rules and etiquette, and no timed laps? Do folks consider that "racing"? Does that distinction matter?

(Ron, hope that fits in your thread )

I like track days with Passing rules, (I.E. front straight only and wave by on the left pass) it relieves the stress of a jittery driver taking me out as I pass, On the Driving schools, these are a must in my mind, I have been lucky enough to have had some world class expert drivers sitting in the seats next to me (both driving and navigating) over the last few years, but I was still in a driving school with a friend of mine who is a 10+ time national SCCA champion and we both learned some more to add to our arsenal, on the no timed laps, I prefer the time laps to help myself with driving lines, techniques and car setup, just my two cents

[JohnUlaszek]

I think there is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance on this issue. I'll be blunt -- In short too many people are lying to themselves that they have adequate safety equipment. Some of you guys have heard me talk about this and are probably thinking "there he goes again", but I've done a good bit of work in military vehicle applications and have seen too many times what happens when the equipment isn't used or fails. For instance, there was the case where a soldier's neck was broken in what should have been very survivable accident because the seat didn't have a head rest.
In the last ten years the horsepower levels and amount of grip have increased at exponential rates. We need to start pushing the envelope on what makes sense with respect to safety while still keeping these cars fun to drive on the street.

[SSLance]

I think that's the prudent course too, for actual racing.

How do folks feel about HPDEs (high performance driving events)? Like the NASA setup where drivers receive training (both classroom and track), before being allowed to drive by themselves, along with strict passing rules and etiquette, and no timed laps? Do folks consider that "racing"? Does that distinction matter?

(Ron, hope that fits in your thread )

I think it fits perfectly in what Ron is asking about, because there are a LOT of us here that do just that. I've done a couple HPDEs in my car and had another one penciled in my schedule in just a couple of weeks.

Seeing that picture above of the vintage Camaro pounding the wall when it was originally posted is most likely the straw that broke the camels back in making me decide to hold off on attending this HPDE (for now anyway). I've worked hard on getting my car to handle better than it did the last time I was in a HPDE, and I know that this would make me push the car even harder on the track.

I have not had time to upgrade the brakes and I'm a bit concerned about the factory restraint system currently in my car, both things that if they failed could cause me great harm or even worse.

As much as I love driving on the big track in my car, I want to educate myself further on this and explore all options before making anymore decisions on this matter. I anxiously await any further discussions regarding track\car safety in regards to our cars.

[Ron Sutton]

I think that's the prudent course too, for actual racing.

How do folks feel about HPDEs (high performance driving events)? Like the NASA setup where drivers receive training (both classroom and track), before being allowed to drive by themselves, along with strict passing rules and etiquette, and no timed laps? Do folks consider that "racing"? Does that distinction matter?

(Ron, hope that fits in your thread )

Hey John, it definitely fits in the topic. Mass x speed + impact + less than adequate protection = disability or death. It doesn't matter what we label it.

IMO if you're reaching speeds over 100mph be it on the track alone on a timed run or in all out competition dicing it with other cars I think you should be seriously considering a roll cage. My biggest fear is a mechanical failure like blowing out a tire, loss of brakes, grenading the engine and coating your rear tires with oil etc....then things like the pic below happen.

Agreed. We're going to discuss safety & accident prevention.

I like track days with Passing rules, (I.E. front straight only and wave by on the left pass) it relieves the stress of a jittery driver taking me out as I pass, On the Driving schools, these are a must in my mind, I have been lucky enough to have had some world class expert drivers sitting in the seats next to me (both driving and navigating) over the last few years, but I was still in a driving school with a friend of mine who is a 10+ time national SCCA champion and we both learned some more to add to our arsenal, on the no timed laps, I prefer the time laps to help myself with driving lines, techniques and car setup, just my two cents

Good info.

I think there is a tremendous amount of cognitive dissonance on this issue. I'll be blunt -- In short too many people are lying to themselves that they have adequate safety equipment. Some of you guys have heard me talk about this and are probably thinking "there he goes again", but I've done a good bit of work in military vehicle applications and have seen too many times what happens when the equipment isn't used or fails. For instance, there was the case where a soldier's neck was broken in what should have been very survivable accident because the seat didn't have a head rest.

In the last ten years the horsepower levels and amount of grip have increased at exponential rates. We need to start pushing the envelope on what makes sense with respect to safety while still keeping these cars fun to drive on the street.

I couldn't agree more. This is reason I'm doing this thread.

I think it fits perfectly in what Ron is asking about, because there are a LOT of us here that do just that. I've done a couple HPDEs in my car and had another one penciled in my schedule in just a couple of weeks.

Seeing that picture above of the vintage Camaro pounding the wall when it was originally posted is most likely the straw that broke the camels back in making me decide to hold off on attending this HPDE (for now anyway). I've worked hard on getting my car to handle better than it did the last time I was in a HPDE, and I know that this would make me push the car even harder on the track.

I have not had time to upgrade the brakes and I'm a bit concerned about the factory restraint system currently in my car, both things that if they failed could cause me great harm or even worse.

As much as I love driving on the big track in my car, I want to educate myself further on this and explore all options before making anymore decisions on this matter. I anxiously await any further discussions regarding track\car safety in regards to our cars.

Yep. We need to protect ourselves ... for us and our loved ones. Otherwise we're being naive.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone we've had 53 guys respond to the poll about roll bars & cages as of this date. Good info. And we've had some great insight, comments & concerns raised. in the text of the thread.

I'm going to leave this thread open one more week ... for polling & opinions ... then start the safety thread.

[parsonsj]

I've got an HPDE on Saturday in my Z06. I'll be running with a track bar, 6 pt harness installed using the Schroth guidelines, Cobra Suzuka fixed back seat (FIA-rated), 2010 helmet with HANS, fire suit, gloves, and fire-retardant shoes. I also have a track-bar mounted fire extinguisher.

I think HPDEs should require all, or nearly all of the above, along with driver training. The problem with that is a lot of folks who are just wanting to get into the sport can't or won't invest that kind of money and mods in their car.

How do you get the dude with the M3 or the fellow with the 69 Camaro to come out and have some fun when you require all that safety gear before they can get on the track? It's a significant issue...

[CarlC]

The photo of the Sunoco Camaro brought back memories of the races in Monterey last August. Looking at many of the Trans-Am cars from "back in the day" was scary. The welding on the cage tubes looks like it was done by a two-year old. I asked about such things and there seemed to be a distinct lack of concern. I don't know if there is a rule about changing such "vintage" work, but I would not want to be in that envelope when things go wrong.

I believe it is a good thing to air out what we believe is right or wrong in a civil and respectful manner. For example, there is mention of an aluminum junior racing seat for the back seat of a car. To me that seat could be more of a danger in it's current form than just having a standard seat. The lack of a pad to protect the head could be deadly. I may be all wrong on that, but I'm very willing to hear debate. It's far better, safer, and less expensive in every dimension to discuss it here than it is to find out the harder way.

Thanks for stepping up to the plate on this one Ron. Mary and I both got religion at Daytona back in May, so I for one am looking forward to your thoughts on the practical application of safety (within your comfort scope).

[shortrack]

I've got an HPDE on Saturday in my Z06. I'll be running with a track bar, 6 pt harness installed using the Schroth guidelines, Cobra Suzuka fixed back seat (FIA-rated), 2010 helmet with HANS, fire suit, gloves, and fire-retardant shoes. I also have a track-bar mounted fire extinguisher.

I think HPDEs should require all, or nearly all of the above, along with driver training. The problem with that is a lot of folks who are just wanting to get into the sport can't or won't invest that kind of money and mods in their car.

How do you get the dude with the M3 or the fellow with the 69 Camaro to come out and have some fun when you require all that safety gear before they can get on the track? It's a significant issue...

I hear ya' when you talk about not wanting to discourage someone coming out for some fun. Maybe the organizers could say something like "Ok it's your first time here we'll let you run but we strongly encourage you to increase the safety equipment in your car. (and show him the pic above lol) And by your third (or fourth or fifth or whatever) event your car must be to X level" or you can just run the autocrosses.

[parsonsj]

Maybe the organizers could say something like "Ok it's your first time here we'll let you run but we strongly encourage you to increase the safety equipment in your car. (and show him the pic above lol) And by your third (or fourth or fifth or whatever) event your car must be to X level" or you can just run the autocrosses.

I think a more formal approach might be better: different rules for different levels of equipment: level 1 is paced groups with strict passing rules and lower speeds, requiring a helmet and a 3 point belt. Level 2 requires a check ride for entry and an instructor in the car at all times, along with a helmet and a 3 point belt, and hand signals to pass, with the to-be-passed driver initiating the pass. Level 3 requires a check ride for entry, along with significant upgrades in equipment: seat, harness, shoes, gloves, with more passing zones, but still initiated by the to-be-passed driver. Level 4 is pass anywhere, with full fire suppression.

etc. etc.

It's kinda like the NASA approach, except that the Level 1 is paced, along with additional safety gear as someone advances in level.

optima challenge cars would need to be Level 3 qualified, or something like that.

[rickpaw]

Great discussions. I'll be watching this thread. I thought about signing up for HPDE event, but thinking maybe it's wise to put in a roll bar first (it's a street car afterall).

[NOT A TA]

It's an interesting thread. I'm not prepared though to call it, or John the definitive authority on the topics therein.

It's been 5 years since I wrote that thread on my safety upgrade project and safety technology has advanced. While I have experience with things I've done on my car and customers cars I am certainly NOT a definitive authority on safety. I wrote that thread because there had been little discussion on safety on the forum previously for us to learn from and I figured folks might find it educational if I shared what I learned as I went through the process. It took me a tremendous amount of time to research and plan what I should do for my car because there was really no place to start on some subjects. As an example I had thought at the beginning that I'd have a chromoly cage and Halon fire system because that had seemed to be the commonly accepted standard at the time, however while that might be best for some people I decided to go a different route for reasons I learned while researching. There are things I've learned since then from tech officials etc. that I will share when Ron gets the thread going.

One of the problems with safety equipment discussions on forums is that the really knowledgeable people rarely post even when the subject does come up. The people who are involved in the business of manufacturing, selling and/or installing fire systems, harnesses, roll bar padding, fuel cells, etc. don't seem to show up in threads like people in the suspension, steering, wheel and other businesses do. Also there are far fewer discussions about safety on the forums. As examples, can anyone think of the names of 3 or more companies that make fire systems? How about roll bar padding? But most could easily come up with 3 suspension companies.

I think the pole results might be skewed a bit because folks who aren't interested in rollover protection are much less likely to vote.

[SSLance]

I've done an SCCA PDX and a NASA HPDE in my car, both at Heartland Park Topeka's 2.something mile road course. Without a doubt the most fun I've ever had driving a car both times.

The PDX was 1.5 years ago and I was still running drop spindles on the front of my car, not set up for this type of driving at all. I still did pretty good for what it and the driver were like at the time, surprised a lot of people, but I was still slow enough and careful enough that I never felt like I put myself in danger. I did have one 4 tire off because I pushed out of a corner but was still completely in control and reentered the track without incident and continued on. I had an instructor in the car with me on the first 2 of 3 runs.

The NASA HPDE was a two day deal, I started in HPDE 1 with an instructor with me all day (4 20 minute runs). The car was much better, as was the driver...and with the instructor's help I was pushing the car more and more gaining more speed all of the time. On day 2 I did the first session with the instructor and he passed me up to HPDE2. My next session was solo. My third session was with the HPDE 3 instructor who was grading me to see if I was ready to move up to HPDE 3. He pushed me even harder, and got me to thinking about ways to carry more speed through the corners instead of just getting around the corner safely. Some of it sunk in and we put into motion, the rest was limited by the car I was driving. He passed me into HPDE 3 regardless so in my next event with them I can sign up and run in HPDE 3.

This leads me to where I am today. The car is much better handling wise, and the driver is better as well. I know me well enough to know this means that if I did another HPDE, I'd really be pushing the car carrying even higher speeds. This is where I started to get uncomfortable with the safety devices in my car. The thoughts never crossed my mind before. Sure, I put race brake pads on the car before my first PDX to make sure it kept good brakes for a whole session but other than that...the safety devices are still 1985 factory vintage.

My point for relaying my story is this, PDXs and HPDEs are FUN!! Period!! If you get the chance to do one, you really should. Just take into consideration what I've been through, your car's current condition, your driving ability, and weigh the risks vs enjoyment factor and make a prudent decision.

During my two events, there were a lot of street cars participating that were going much slower than I was for whatever reason, but I'm certain they were having just as much fun as I was. I never felt in danger during either of those two events. I'm pretty certain that at my next one though, the risk factor was going to go up, considerably. This is my cause for concern now and I'm hoping to learn ways to reduce this future risk now.

[JohnUlaszek]

I've posted this before, so some of you have probably seen this story I wrote when I was with GM High Tech Performance.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...l/viewall.html

The point of the story was to take a "reasonable" approach to safety for a dual use car. I consulted heavily with subject matter expert Joe Marko at HMS Motorsports on this. I am not a SME though I have done a fair bit of engineering and testing on restraint systems in military applications.

[sccacuda]

I think a more formal approach might be better: different rules for different levels of equipment: level 1 is paced groups with strict passing rules and lower speeds, requiring a helmet and a 3 point belt. Level 2 requires a check ride for entry and an instructor in the car at all times, along with a helmet and a 3 point belt, and hand signals to pass, with the to-be-passed driver initiating the pass. Level 3 requires a check ride for entry, along with significant upgrades in equipment: seat, harness, shoes, gloves, with more passing zones, but still initiated by the to-be-passed driver. Level 4 is pass anywhere, with full fire suppression.

etc. etc.

It's kinda like the NASA approach, except that the Level 1 is paced, along with additional safety gear as someone advances in level.

optima challenge cars would need to be Level 3 qualified, or something like that.

The group I track day with (I have a late model track day car) uses colored groups for differing experience levels (instructor ride, wave to pass, etc..) to try and put you on track with like experienced drivers. Doesn't always play out that way, most of the Ferraris and Porches usually are concerned for their vehicles and drive sanely, but some of the drivers of the newer Shelby's and Vette's (excluding you John!) can get a little scary at times. I'll admit it's fun to bait them into over driving into a corner, but it always scares me if they are too close behind. That is why on my build, I am very interested as to what Ron has to say about rear crash protection, fuel cell's, and bulkheads. I tried to copy the Cup cars for rear protection, Fuel Safe cell, Fire Bottle suppression,etc..., but want every possible advantage Ron can come up with.

[73CPCAMARO]

Ron,
This is a very important subject and thank you for taking it on. I built my Camaro with safety number one. I wanted to be able to take my car to track events and be safe. My life and health are very important to me. My car has been accused of being too much race car as I have a full cage, no door glass, no insulation in the cabin, and fire extinguisher within easy reach from my drivers seat. I am the first to admit my car is built to go fast, be safe, and be street legal. Call it what you want, it is my car and I love it. I wear a drivers suit, fire proof underwear, head sock, gloves, shoes, and HANS. For those that are not going to go to track days with their "Pro Touring" car, any safety you add is a plus. If you are going to go to track days, I believe you are crazy and are rolling the dice going out there without at least some safety built into the car and your personal safety equipment.
At our local track, Thunderhill, it is very easy to get a high powered Pro Touring car over 135 mph on the start/finish. I was out there with Mike Maier a couple years ago when he was in his blue Mustang. As he crossed the start/finish line, he blew the left rear tire at well over 140 mph just before turn 1. If it was not for his outstanding driving experience, it could have been really bad. The car went off turn 1 and into the dirt. Mike does have a full containment race seat, roll bar, and HANS if something did happen.
Brian