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  1. #101
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    Thanks Ron,



    I do plan on flush mounting the windshield and back glass. One more question you mentioned not to extend the bottom of the of the qtrs but I would like to close the bottom of the car from the front of the fuel tank back to hide the exhaust and gas tank and have the exhaust exit threw a roll pan under the rear bumper, and add air foils to the bottom of the body work under the gas tank. Could this work or should I leave it be?

    Thanks
    Scott


  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro68chevelle View Post
    Thanks Ron,

    I do plan on flush mounting the windshield and back glass. One more question you mentioned not to extend the bottom of the of the qtrs but I would like to close the bottom of the car from the front of the fuel tank back to hide the exhaust and gas tank and have the exhaust exit threw a roll pan under the rear bumper, and add air foils to the bottom of the body work under the gas tank. Could this work or should I leave it be?

    Thanks
    Scott

    Hey Scott,

    I'm not crystal clear on what you're planning. Can you draw up something & post it so I can get a visual idea of what you're thinking?

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  3. #103
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    Something like this.
    Attached Images Attached Images      

  4. #104
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    Scott, got it.

    The photo shows 6 vanes in a quasi diffuser. Are you counting the outside vanes as the rear quarter fender skirts? ... or are you planning to add 2 more vanes to act as skirts?

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  5. #105
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    Ron,

    I do like the style that is on the car in the pics I sent you but to make it all work I would need to extend the rear bumper (like a roll pan) and bottom of the qtrs to build the diffuser off of and have room to tuck the exhast behind. Any ideas or thoughts?

    Scott

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro68chevelle View Post
    Ron,

    I do like the style that is on the car in the pics I sent you but to make it all work I would need to extend the rear bumper (like a roll pan) and bottom of the qtrs to build the diffuser off of and have room to tuck the exhast behind. Any ideas or thoughts?

    Scott
    I like the look of this quasi-diffuser. The curve up angle is too steep & quick to be super effective, but it will work to a degree. It sure won't "hurt" airflow getting out from underneath.

    In this design, you also need vanes out flush on both sides to prevent airflow from following the curve of the quarter panel and rolling under. That would disrupt the flow of air coming from underneath.

    Last edited by Ron Sutton; 12-10-2013 at 06:32 PM.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  7. #107
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    Thanks, I will try to mock something up and take some pics so I can see what you thing of the design.
    Scott

  8. #108
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    Hey Scott, where did you find those pics? I would love to see them bigger to help with what I'm planning too.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro68chevelle View Post
    Thanks, I will try to mock something up and take some pics so I can see what you thing of the design.
    Scott

    Sounds good. I can help better when I can see it.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  10. #110
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    Greetings Ron,

    Many thanks for your reply, and my apologies for taking a few days to get back to this. My real name is Mark. I'm just a rank amateur when it comes to automotive things, so I don't think I've earned the right (!) to post my full name.

    To specific points:

    1) Spoiler rake angle convention: I wasn't aware that there was a difference between rear and front locations, so I lumped them together. But my question was, when the spoiler is viewed from the side of the car, is its inclination measured WRT (with respect to) the horizontal or the vertical? Re-reading most of thread, it would seem that the zero-angle reference is the horizontal, so a spoiler with a rake of, say, 75 deg, would be more nearly vertical than horizontal. Is that correct? Sorry for such a remedial question.

    2) About, "having underhood air follow a longer and more circuitous path before exiting the engine bay," the thinking on my part here is that the major heat sources under the hood are the radiator, engine, and headers. Since the engine and headers are very close to the firewall, it would seem that having underhood air circulate right up to the firewall would be helpful to minimize engine bay temperature (this concern, in turn, is prompted by a desire to minimize temperature in and around the engine's intake system.) So, extracting the air after cooling the rearward part of the engine bay would be more desirous than having it exit before, as would happen, say, if we used hood extractors with the usual forward location for said extractors. Is that right?

    But if right, then biasing underhood airflow for a, "longer and more circuitous," path is also an invitation to have more air exit under the firewall, which would add lift. So if all of the foregoing is correct, then it would seem that some form of a bellypan extending from the engine crossmember back to the firewall (at least,) along with fender vents behind the wheelwell openings (as in the photo of the Corvette that you shared in post 6,) to provide the relief for underhood pressure, would work best. How does that seem?

    3) Thank you very much for sharing all of those helpful photos of wicker bills.

    By the way, I should mention that along with SS Lance, my project car is on the aerodynamic "hit list:" namely, a 1981 Monte Carlo SS conversion. My plans are:

    1) Lower the front of the car as much as possible.
    2) Move front wheels 3" forward.
    3) Increase front and rear track widths by 3".
    4) Extend front air dam downward to minimize undercar airflow. Underside is a hopeless jungle of paraphernalia, and the thought of trying to tuck it all inside of a belly pan terrifies me (!)
    5) 3" wide side splitters between front and rear wheels.
    6) Create rear bellypan bridging from gas tank area to bumper, along with downward-projecting diffuser fins.
    7) Create a row of VG's on roof a few inches forward of rear glass, to engage more of rear deck lid for downforce (I'm barely OK with this cosmetically - might finish a different color than body for "camouflaging" purposes.)
    8) Make a non-factory configuration rear spoiler - probably several inches long, with minimal rake (i.e., nearly horizontal.)
    9) Flush-mount windshield; remove driprails (it almost never rains here - added bonus.)
    10) Round forward edge of B-pillar next to window, roughly 1.5" radius.

    How does this strike you? The goal is stable handling in the vicinity of 100-140 mph. I live out on the desert with long, long stretches of desolate roads.

    Many thanks, Ron!

    Best,
    MAP

  11. #111
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    Google DC camaro and you will see it. It alsohas a nice air dam on the front.

  12. #112
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    Hi Ron,
    One more quick question about the rear diffuser, what is the minimum lenght the fins should be, what should the curve angle be and the optimum spacing of the fins?

    Thanks Scott

    P.s I sold my small racing operation this summer too!

  13. #113
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    Hi Mark,

    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    Greetings Ron,

    Many thanks for your reply, and my apologies for taking a few days to get back to this. My real name is Mark. I'm just a rank amateur when it comes to automotive things, so I don't think I've earned the right (!) to post my full name.
    That's too funny. We're all just car guys. I just like to address people by their name.

    To specific points:

    1) Spoiler rake angle convention: I wasn't aware that there was a difference between rear and front locations, so I lumped them together. But my question was, when the spoiler is viewed from the side of the car, is its inclination measured WRT (with respect to) the horizontal or the vertical? Re-reading most of thread, it would seem that the zero-angle reference is the horizontal, so a spoiler with a rake of, say, 75 deg, would be more nearly vertical than horizontal. Is that correct? Sorry for such a remedial question.
    Front air dams are vertical. What I call front chin spoilers can be vertical or angled forward. Of course front splitters are horizontal. If I say a front spoiler has 0 angle ... it is vertical.

    Rear spoilers can be flat horizontal to some some degree of angle. You are correct in that a 75 spoiler would be almost vertical. If I say a rear spoiler has 0 angle ... it is level to the horizon.



    2) About, "having underhood air follow a longer and more circuitous path before exiting the engine bay," the thinking on my part here is that the major heat sources under the hood are the radiator, engine, and headers. Since the engine and headers are very close to the firewall, it would seem that having underhood air circulate right up to the firewall would be helpful to minimize engine bay temperature (this concern, in turn, is prompted by a desire to minimize temperature in and around the engine's intake system.)
    Your thought process made sense up to this point.

    So, extracting the air after cooling the rearward part of the engine bay would be more desirous
    This is where the conversation gets off track for me. What would we be cooling ... and where would we be getting cool air to do that?

    If the engine is hot & the radiator is effective, the air coming off the radiator isn't going to cool anything. And the headers & engine are, of course, generating their own heat, that underhood airflow isn't going to change.

    Now if you're trying to keep the airflow going into the engine cooler ... I get that. Of course getting hot air out from underhood helps here. You would also want to build an airbox to bring in cool air from a hood scoop or use an duct off the grille. Of the two strategies, the airbox will bring down inlet air temperature much more effectively. Combining the two strategies would be even more effective.


    than having it exit before, as would happen, say, if we used hood extractors with the usual forward location for said extractors. Is that right?
    I "think" so ... because hood extractors aren't helping remove engine & header heat ... just radiator heat.

    But my primary reason for shying away from hood extractors is for downforce purposes. I do not have the knowledge & experience in the wind tunnel with successful hood extractor layouts. So I don't know how to do it without disrupting the attached airflow layer across the hood ... which accounts for quite a bit of downforce.

    As I outlined before, just putting hood extractors in ... is a win & loss situation ... and doesn't necessarily equate to a downforce gain. But extracting hot air out the side, doesn't disrupt airflow needed for downforce. So that is my preference, because it is a win & win situation.

    IMHO the best exit for underhood hot air is out through side extractor vents in the fenders (behind the wheel well openings).


    But if right, then biasing underhood airflow for a, "longer and more circuitous," path is also an invitation to have more air exit under the firewall, which would add lift.
    Not if you effectively vented the hot air out the side.

    So if all of the foregoing is correct, then it would seem that some form of a bellypan extending from the engine crossmember back to the firewall (at least,) along with fender vents behind the wheelwell openings (as in the photo of the Corvette that you shared in post 6,) to provide the relief for underhood pressure, would work best. How does that seem?
    I think you're on the right track, but just to be clear, the belly pan doesn't reduce air getting underneath. It smooths out the path so the airflow speeds up 9reducing pressure & lift) & exits, which increases downforce.

    3) Thank you very much for sharing all of those helpful photos of wicker bills.

    By the way, I should mention that along with SS Lance, my project car is on the aerodynamic "hit list:" namely, a 1981 Monte Carlo SS conversion. My plans are:

    1) Lower the front of the car as much as possible.
    2) Move front wheels 3" forward.
    3) Increase front and rear track widths by 3".
    4) Extend front air dam downward to minimize undercar airflow. Underside is a hopeless jungle of paraphernalia, and the thought of trying to tuck it all inside of a belly pan terrifies me (!)
    5) 3" wide side splitters between front and rear wheels.
    6) Create rear bellypan bridging from gas tank area to bumper, along with downward-projecting diffuser fins.
    7) Create a row of VG's on roof a few inches forward of rear glass, to engage more of rear deck lid for downforce (I'm barely OK with this cosmetically - might finish a different color than body for "camouflaging" purposes.)
    8) Make a non-factory configuration rear spoiler - probably several inches long, with minimal rake (i.e., nearly horizontal.)
    9) Flush-mount windshield; remove driprails (it almost never rains here - added bonus.)
    10) Round forward edge of B-pillar next to window, roughly 1.5" radius.

    How does this strike you? The goal is stable handling in the vicinity of 100-140 mph. I live out on the desert with long, long stretches of desolate roads.

    Many thanks, Ron!

    Best,
    MAP
    The only thing I question is why move the front wheels 3" forward? Straight line stability? Because going from 108" WB to 111" WB sure won't help it turn better.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  14. #114
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    Hi Scott,

    Quote Originally Posted by pro68chevelle View Post
    Hi Ron,
    One more quick question about the rear diffuser, what is the minimum lenght the fins should be,
    Long.

    what should the curve angle be
    Gentle

    and the optimum spacing of the fins?
    Moderate

    Thanks Scott

    Sorry for the bad humor. I couldn't resist.

    There is no standard. For factory efforts, each diffuser design is mocked up & tested, modified & retested many times until they have optimum. The challenge is not the diffuser, but with the under car airflow the diffuser needs to handle (and evacuate).

    Even though I was being funny, my answers were correct. Typical effective diffusers have vanes (or fins) the whole length of the diffuser area. The curve needs to be gentle or the airflow becomes detached ... just like the airflow on the top of the car's body. And the "channels" between the vanes need to be 4" to 8" wide.



    P.s I sold my small racing operation this summer too!
    Should I say congrats? ... or condolences?

    I wasn't planning to sell mine, until I lost a boatload of money the last two years when the sponsorship market took a tank. I decided to get out & sell all the race teams & rigs while I still could.

    Now I'm relaxing, spending time with my wife & daughter, enjoying life, writing books & building a car ... while I have time. But I'm planning my next step back into motorsports and my time will fill up again.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  15. #115
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    Thanks Ron

    I will use the info when I mock it up.
    My team was only a one car team, my dad and I each owned 50% and I drove. We raced for 12 years 1-4 nights a week depending on the cash flow and had lots of fun a learned alot but it was just getting to expensive so we sold everything while we still could. So now I'm building a pro touring car so I can get my speed fix and keep my driving skills up.

    Scott
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  16. #116
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    That looks like a lot of fun. Of course so are PT cars.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by pro68chevelle View Post
    Google DC camaro and you will see it. It alsohas a nice air dam on the front.
    Awesome. I'll check it out. Thanks man.

  18. #118
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    Greetings Ron,

    Thanks for your comments. I'll try to keep my comments brief:

    1) "Longer and more circuitous path" justification: If I assume the average temperature of air exiting the radiator is about 140-160 deg F (180-ish deg F coolant temp,) and the header surfaces are in the region of 400-500 deg F, and the motor surface in the vicinity of 200 deg F average (of this I'm least certain, however,) then "radiator air" does accomplish a cooling function.

    2) Thank you for the explanation about the belly pan - I did understand that previously, but here I'm making it do double duty as a flow inhibitor for underhood air to exit from underneath the firewall. Instead, I would make the fender vents have lower flow resistance than that afforded by the apertures in the forward belly pan, so that airflow bias is primarily out the side fender vents rather than underneath the car, where I would get lift.

    3) Why move the front wheels 3 " forward? Long, long story here! To justify this would detract far too much from the current thread. A detailed discussion can be found here:

    http://www.montecarloss.com/communit...413#Post847413

    The thread gets into things like high and low-frequency yaw centers, and steering response.

    Thank you!

    Best,
    MAP

  19. #119
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    Hi Mark,

    Quote Originally Posted by MAP View Post
    Greetings Ron,

    Thanks for your comments. I'll try to keep my comments brief:

    1) "Longer and more circuitous path" justification: If I assume the average temperature of air exiting the radiator is about 140-160 deg F (180-ish deg F coolant temp,) and the header surfaces are in the region of 400-500 deg F, and the motor surface in the vicinity of 200 deg F average (of this I'm least certain, however,) then "radiator air" does accomplish a cooling function.
    This may be correct in your case. I'm not sure. As we all know, when an engine makes more power, it makes more heat. In my racing experience, where cars make good power & we're working the cooling system to be efficient, the air coming off the radiator is much hotter.

    2) Thank you for the explanation about the belly pan - I did understand that previously, but here I'm making it do double duty as a flow inhibitor for underhood air to exit from underneath the firewall. Instead, I would make the fender vents have lower flow resistance than that afforded by the apertures in the forward belly pan, so that airflow bias is primarily out the side fender vents rather than underneath the car, where I would get lift.
    Good.

    3) Why move the front wheels 3 " forward? Long, long story here! To justify this would detract far too much from the current thread. A detailed discussion can be found here:

    http://www.montecarloss.com/communit...413#Post847413

    The thread gets into things like high and low-frequency yaw centers, and steering response.
    Okie Dokie.

    For anyone following along, the only reasons to lengthen the wheelbase is to increase straight line stability or slow the car's reaction & yaw rotation once the rear tires achieve a slid angle. I've been 189.xx mph in 108" wb cars and they're quite stable, assuming you don't have steering geometry issues nor aero lift.


    Thank you!

    Best,
    MAP

    Sounds like you have your plan worked out. Best wishes & let me know if you have any other questions.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  20. #120
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    Thank you, sir. It does seem I have a plan at least for now, but it's quite fluid, and I'm still learning a lot from your insightful postings. I'll be continuing to read with keen interest as this thread evolves...

    Best,
    MAP

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