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  1. #61
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    BTW, don't want to run splitter braces. They just don't look right on older cars IMO. I'd like to have enough lip to be effective and am hoping .120 will be enough to get a few inches out without deflecting. Unsure if that is enough lip to create any downforce?

    Craig Scholl
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Nice. That is really helpful for your decision process. I didn't know you were considering a spoiler ... I thought you were "going wing." I personally like the spoiler, but that doesn't matter. As long as you like it.

    P.S. They are getting a lot of downforce from that spoiler. That means the airflow is over the roof & back window is very good, very "attached".
    I have their spoiler already -- and was thinking about changing to a wing. But based on their data, I need to look elsewhere to tune my rear "lightness".

    Good stuff!
    John Parsons



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  3. #63
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    Hi Craig,

    Quote Originally Posted by sccacuda View Post
    Ron, quick question. Using .120 aluminum unsupported, what do you think would be the maximum width before deflection? I'm asking because I am laying out the belly pans and can extend the front pan out past my air dam. The air dam will support the pan, but how far past that support do you think will be effective before deflection occurs? Same goes on the side splitters. They are supported by the rocker extensions, but how far past that support?

    Thanks, Craig
    I know exactly what you're asking because I've done the exact same thing. My suggestion is not to look for "zero" deflection ... but rather look for "acceptable" deflection. Assuming your splitters are mounted solidly & extending out from the belly pan ... I feel confident 2" will work at the speeds you're running (200mph+) ... and 2-1/2" to 3" may work ... but would be max.

    Put a go pro camera on it & record at speed. If you start seeing 1/4" or more deflection, I'd step the thickness of the aluminum splitter up to .187"

    Make sure the body work the splitters mount to are solidly supported too.



    Quote Originally Posted by sccacuda View Post
    BTW, don't want to run splitter braces. They just don't look right on older cars IMO. I'd like to have enough lip to be effective and am hoping .120 will be enough to get a few inches out without deflecting. Unsure if that is enough lip to create any downforce?
    Sure. 2"-3" will "split" the air ... and achieve significant downforce.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
    I have their spoiler already -- and was thinking about changing to a wing. But based on their data, I need to look elsewhere to tune my rear "lightness".

    Good stuff!
    A well designed wing ... full width and 5-6" deep with a wickerbill & angle adjustment ... will build more downforce than that spoiler.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sccacuda View Post
    BTW, don't want to run splitter braces. They just don't look right on older cars IMO. I'd like to have enough lip to be effective and am hoping .120 will be enough to get a few inches out without deflecting. Unsure if that is enough lip to create any downforce?
    I felt the same way but after ripping the spoiler off the sheet metal after banging a cone twice, one time at Scottsdale goodguys and at Run to the Coast at 80 mph, I added them for the extra support, in fact with the extra support i have literally cut a cone in half

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I felt the same way but after ripping the spoiler off the sheet metal after banging a cone twice, one time at Scottsdale goodguys and at Run to the Coast at 80 mph, I added them for the extra support, in fact with the extra support i have literally cut a cone in half
    There goes Rodney cutting corners again....
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuarterD25 View Post
    There goes Rodney cutting corners again....
    I try my hardest

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    I felt the same way but after ripping the spoiler off the sheet metal after banging a cone twice, one time at Scottsdale goodguys and at Run to the Coast at 80 mph, I added them for the extra support, in fact with the extra support i have literally cut a cone in half
    Poor, defenseless cone. You should feel ashamed of your actions. I'm sure a protest group is forming as we speak to speak up for "abused cone rights."
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
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  9. #69
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    I have a question that is a fairly silly one to ask. What does a person do to help out something that has aero of a barn door. Im wondering what can be done to help out the 60s thru 80s trucks and s10's. Other then the basics that you have mentioned what can be done. I liked the vortex generators, I bet that would help on the roof a bit , but other then that is a good bed cover the only option? Ive seen guys with metal panels as a bed cover on s10's and they actually have a problem keeping them connected with the lift they get. I cant see there being much help with anything that is as square as some of the older trucks.
    Miles Boyer
    The car hobby is dangerous,if the speed doesn't kill you, the cost of parts will.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvermonte View Post
    I have a question that is a fairly silly one to ask. What does a person do to help out something that has aero of a barn door. Im wondering what can be done to help out the 60s thru 80s trucks and s10's. Other then the basics that you have mentioned what can be done. I liked the vortex generators, I bet that would help on the roof a bit , but other then that is a good bed cover the only option? Ive seen guys with metal panels as a bed cover on s10's and they actually have a problem keeping them connected with the lift they get. I cant see there being much help with anything that is as square as some of the older trucks.
    Hi Miles,

    Are you asking about increasing downforce & grip for improved handling ? .... or decreasing the drag coefficient for more top speed, fuel mileage, etc?
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

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  11. #71
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    Mainly decreasing the drag coefficent. My truck has the aero of a pine wood derby car that hasnt been touched yet. What I have learned from these post was how the air acts coming off of a surface and how it connects to the body and flows smoothly. The angle that the air is going to bounce off the front grill and windshield I would assume is almost a hopeless battle to control. The downforce and grip you have given enough ideas that I can play around with but Im at a loss on how to "smooth" out a square body.
    Miles Boyer
    The car hobby is dangerous,if the speed doesn't kill you, the cost of parts will.
    91 V8 S10
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvermonte View Post
    Mainly decreasing the drag coefficent. My truck has the aero of a pine wood derby car that hasnt been touched yet. What I have learned from these post was how the air acts coming off of a surface and how it connects to the body and flows smoothly. The angle that the air is going to bounce off the front grill and windshield I would assume is almost a hopeless battle to control. The downforce and grip you have given enough ideas that I can play around with but Im at a loss on how to "smooth" out a square body.
    Sorry for the delay in responding.

    You can reduce the drag in your truck in several ways. I'm not telling you "do this" ... I will outline what you "can do" ... and what you decide to do is up to you. I'll break it into "groups" or "categories"

    Category 1 / Underneath:

    The airflow underneath cars & trucks is horrible. There are cavities, obstacles, barriers, etc. Just look at Craig's Cuda in post #20. If this type of airflow obstacles were on the outside body, we'd be working on them pronto. Craig is going to put a smooth belly pan under almost all of his undercarriage. This will reduce drag and lift.

    For best results, use all of this multi-part strategy:

    • Full belly pan to speed up airflow, reduce drag & reduce lift.
    • Reduce the volume of airflow getting under the truck with a combination of airdam, splitter and/or side splitters.
    • Reduce underneath airflow even more, while in the corners, by traveling the suspension enough to put the splitter on or near the track.
    • Utilize a rear diffuser to help the air merge better as it exits the truck. This is big in reducing "flow detachment drag."


    Category 2 / Rear of Truck Bed:
    One of the two worst areas of airflow for trucks is "how" the airflow detaches at the rear. The airflow detaches itself from the rear of truck bed then tumbles & churns creating a horrible vacuum effect. This huge vacuum effect sucks the air back to where it started from.

    This is because the shape of truck beds are not conducive to the air going over, under & around the truck bed and rejoining together smoothly. This turbulence behind the truck bed forms a continuous vacuum that sucks on the back of the truck as it drives along creating constant drag from the rear of the truck bed.

    How to improve it:
    Build a smooth bed cover (tonneau cover) that blends into the bed. This is to act like the trunk lid discussed in my fundamental section. Not only will it add down force, and eliminate the "wind catcher" cavity an open bed creates ... but it will help "turn the airflow" the correct direction to exit the truck bed smoother. This reduces tumble & churn. This helps the air direction stay horizontal, so not to "crash" into the airflow coming out from under the truck.

    Make the airflow detach cleaner with one or more of the few options that exist.
    • Vortex generators at the trailing edge of the bed cover.
    • Short, low angle spoiler at the trailing edge of the bed cover. (Approximately 1" tall & 30)
    • Vortex generators at the trailing edges of the bed sides.


    Category 3 / Smoothing airflow:
    You can find a zillion places where airflow gets disturbed and detaches ... which adds drag. Every spot you can smooth out and/or eliminate obstructions to the boundary layer of airflow, will keep the airflow attached there, reducing drag. You need to look at your truck and decide where these are and what you're willing to do.

    I'll just give you ideas of where to look:
    • Grille, headlights & headlight rings
    • Emblems & body trim
    • Marker lights, door handles, antenna
    • Windshield trim, window trim, windshield step
    • Gaps in body panels, cowl vents, etc.
    • License plates & frames
    • Bumpers


    Category 4 / Major body work:
    If you were building a full custom or hardcore race truck, you would want to consider modifying the body or building a custom body.

    If that were the case, these are possible areas to reduce drag:
    • Lay back angle of front end & grill
    • Make one-piece front end/grill area with less steps & ridges
    • Lay back the windshield angle
    • Reduce the size of the greenhouse (cab) and windshield
    • Make corners from nose to fender sides with bigger, smoother radius
    • Make edges at rear of bed with hard 90 corners to help airflow detach cleaner.


    Obviously these category 4 body work options are intensely involved and/or expensive steps. i just wanted to be comprehensive in suggesting ideas.


    After you review this, if you decide to do some of these improvements, let us know on this thread & keep us posted of your progress.

    .
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
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  13. #73
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    Thank you for the reply, I will be doing most of 1, and now that I have an idea of what Im aiming for I will be doing most of 2 and some of 3. I doubt any of 4 will be done as this is just a toy and Im not racing in any thing where Im trying to win any money. My main concern was what to do with the bed as thats a unique thing to deal with having a truck. I would of thought that putting vortexs on the roof instead the back of the bed would of been the trick, but glad to get some better insight. Can I put VG's in front of a spoiler or would that not work? I would like to make an attachment that hooks to the tailgate to take on and off if need be.
    Miles Boyer
    The car hobby is dangerous,if the speed doesn't kill you, the cost of parts will.
    91 V8 S10
    88 Cutlass Pro-Tour
    97 Chevy lifted Z-71
    96 Corvette

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvermonte View Post
    Thank you for the reply, I will be doing most of 1, and now that I have an idea of what Im aiming for I will be doing most of 2 and some of 3.
    Cool.

    I doubt any of 4 will be done as this is just a toy and Im not racing in any thing where Im trying to win any money.
    Yeah, I put that in just to be thorough.

    My main concern was what to do with the bed as thats a unique thing to deal with having a truck. I would of thought that putting vortexs on the roof instead the back of the bed would of been the trick, but glad to get some better insight.
    Hmmm. It would be interesting to see to see if there would be a reduction in turbulence with VGs mounted on the trailing edge of the truck cab roof. Frankly, without testing I don't know. read the more detailed explanation below.

    Can I put VG's in front of a spoiler or would that not work? I would like to make an attachment that hooks to the tailgate to take on and off if need be.
    Are you asking about the rear spoiler? Then yes.
    The best combination on the rear deck lid would be a row of VGs 6"-36" in front of the spoiler ... assuming we're talking about a relatively short/low angle spoiler. That would create the cleanest airflow detachment in the rear, and therefore less drag.

    Just an FYI about VGs ...
    The first thing to know ... and this is super obvious ... is what Vortex Generators do is turn the airflow into vortexes/vorticles. (Vorticles & vortexes are two different spellings ... both correct ... meaning the same thing.) The key is knowing if & where to utilize Vortex Generators... comes down to understanding what vortexes do .... and determining if vortexes will benefit your airflow goals on an individual area by area basis.

    Vortexes do three primary things:
    • They "energize" the air flow. They turn lazy or wandering airflow into active, attached, directed airflow ... rotating in little vortexes.
    • The airflow in vortexes will follow a convex shape better than than normal boundary layer airflow.
    • The airflow in vortexes will break & detach cleaner from an edge than than normal boundary layer airflow.
    • I know those last two sound contradictory, but that is accurate.


    So when it makes sense to use VGs is:
    When you need the airflow to follow a shape better, like airflow over a car roof and onto the rear glass (and ultimately onto the deck lid). With a truck, there is nothing for the airflow to follow off the trailing edge of the cab roof.

    I think VGs mounted on the trailing edge of the truck cab roof may help the air to be less turbulent as it comes off the cab, but I do not know how effective it would help the airflow get on the bed cover. I do not have the experience in this truck situation to say how much the reduction in turbulence will be. It could very minor or somewhat significant. I'm not saying it won't be a benefit. I just don't know without testing.

    The second area for VGs is anywhere you need cleaner airflow detachment with less turbulence & less drag. Basically, this is effective at the rear of almost all vehicles. (cars, trucks, trailers, etc.) VGs can be used on the top, sides & bottom, depending on your goals & tastes.

    I do know ... from experience ... that putting VGs before a small spoiler or wicker bill will increase downforce (from better attached air) & reduce drag (from cleaner airflow detachment with less turbulence).


    Last edited by Ron Sutton; 09-20-2013 at 03:51 PM.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  15. #75
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    Ron,

    How large to the VG's need to be and how many would one need to be effective?

    Application specific I'm guessing so for the sake of argument lets say one was looking to put them of the aft end of the roof on a car such as an early Mustang or Camaro?
    True T.

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  16. #76
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    Thank you, that is exactly the info I was looking for. All I have to do now is finish the truck this winter and then start testing the placements of the VG's next summer. I built this truck knowing it had limits, but its nice to know I can haul my gear around if need be also. As a side note when you get done with your books make sure to make a post to let us all know they are finished so that I can buy one to add to my collection.
    Miles Boyer
    The car hobby is dangerous,if the speed doesn't kill you, the cost of parts will.
    91 V8 S10
    88 Cutlass Pro-Tour
    97 Chevy lifted Z-71
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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damn True View Post
    Ron,

    How large to the VG's need to be and how many would one need to be effective?

    Application specific I'm guessing so for the sake of argument lets say one was looking to put them of the aft end of the roof on a car such as an early Mustang or Camaro?

    Hi True!

    As I have stated earlier, I'm not an aerodynamicist by any means. So if you were designing & making your own VGs, you'll need a better source of advice than me. I simply buy all of my VGs. I worked directly with Gary Wheeler (top aerodynamicist) years ago on several applications utilizing his vortex generators with great results. His were about 3/4" tall, 2.5" wide & layered in two rows, making them about 5" long. These came pre-molded into a plastic strip with the VG spacing preset. (See photo).

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    Gary Wheeler's version is no longer available, which is unfortunate. Gary turned over the reigns to Airtab, and they make a significantly different version, that is also very effective. A single Airtab is approximately 1" tall, 3.5" wide & 5" long. (See photo.)

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    I use an Airtab backwards as a spacer between two Airtabs to achieve the correct spacing. These mount in a single row. You end up with 3 Airtabs per foot. (See 2nd photo of spacing on Vette)

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    In testing, the Wheeler VG created more vortexs of a smaller nature and the Airtabs created less vortexs of a larger nature. This is all due to size & spacing. Both appear to be very effective on surfaces & objects the size of automobiles. If we were working with significantly smaller objects, we would want smaller VGs.


    The following is purely opinion on my part, with no data or testing:
    On aircraft wings, I have seen the simplest VGs imaginable, in that they are simply a row of short strips of aluminum at a slight angle 15-25 to the direction of airflow. I suspect these were designed by an aerodynamicist & work well ... but I don't know that for sure. Based on what I learned from working with Gary, there do not appear to be quite enough for maximum effect. (see photo)

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    I have seen an inexpensive, small VG online, with two angled uprights, that they called a micro vortex generator. They were installed on aircraft wings, with their designers saying they achieved good results. You can read about it
    here. Again, I have no first hand knowledge of their results, but the concept looks sound.

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    I see the mini shark fins on Subarus and Mitsubishis ... and I can not see how they create strong vortexes, nor many of them. The fin shape is tapered to a small degree, so that is the effective part that creates the vortex. Again, I suspect these were designed by an aerodynamicist & work ok. But maybe they had to go with this design to stay away from patent infringement. I do not know for sure, but from my experience these look to be the least effective of the designs.

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    As long as it's not patented, there is nothing wrong with copying a design. Let's just be sure the design we're copying works well and achieves our goals.

    For your goal of achieving better attached flow over the back glass (and onto the deck) on a Camaro or Mustang, you'll need a row of VGs of adequate height, angle & quantity to create vortexes off the roof and across the back glass. I know the Wheeler VGs (if they were available) and the Airtabs (available & cheap) will be very effective. If you want to make VGs on your own, the keys to their effectiveness are height, angle, rake & quantity.

    You may able to make the micro VGs (discussed above) work well on the rear of the roof. Or you may come up with own design & test. I just buy the Airtabs & use them.

    Last edited by Ron Sutton; 09-23-2013 at 05:03 PM.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  18. #78
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    If anyone wants to ask questions or start a discussion on the topics outlined in the forum, simply post it up & we'll discuss it.
    Last edited by Ron Sutton; 09-23-2013 at 05:04 PM.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  19. #79
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    The photos of Vortex Generators are now "up" in post #77.

    Thanks Larry for getting the site back working promptly.

  20. #80
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    I have a couple of styles (of vortex generators) sitting on the shelf waiting for some track time I do some testing. One set are the "larger" shark fin style by agent 47 which are supposed to be fairly effective on mustangs (effective enough to be banned from AI and CMC competition). They do have to installed in the right pattern (both spacing and angle)... We'll see. The other set I picked up were a cheap set off eBay - smaller, still shark fin style and, honestly, probably of limited effectiveness. My results (with the dynamic wing) may not be entirely representative but when I do get some testing in I will report back.

    Which itself leads to an interesting question wrt quantifying the performance of something like VGs... What constitutes success? Better airflow as seen by tuff or oil testing? Higher "ultimate" speed in the straight? Single car? Multiple cars?
    James
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