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  1. #601
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    To me a 6" spoiler is pretty good sized. If you built a 6" spoiler somewhere around 30, then put a 3/4" wickerbill on it, you'd have pretty good package for the rear. Of course, since you're doing a full belly pan, if you built in a well designed diffuser in the rear, it would be even better. For what you're doing, I don't think the VGs on the roof are necessary.



    Just to be clear, 30 from level, not 30 from the plane of the deck lid, right? I think I will head that direction.

    Thanks Ron, you are a generous person to offer all of this expertise.
    Tires are just really expensive wear parts...


  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArclightZRO View Post
    Just to be clear, 30 from level, not 30 from the plane of the deck lid, right? I think I will head that direction.
    Yes, 30 from level.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  3. #603
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    New thought: I believe I have seen a picture of a car with a wickerbill/tiny steep spoiler at the back of the roof section. Wouldn't this prevent the airflow from contacting the trunk area?
    Tires are just really expensive wear parts...

  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArclightZRO View Post
    New thought: I believe I have seen a picture of a car with a wickerbill/tiny steep spoiler at the back of the roof section. Wouldn't this prevent the airflow from contacting the trunk area?
    I'd need to see it to understand what you're asking.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    I'd need to see it to understand what you're asking.
    I am getting an error when trying to upload an image.

    Imagine a modern sports car, and just at that point where roof-line meets rear glass, there is a short spoiler (which may have a rather steep angle to it). It seems like this would be counterproductive, as the air would be projected away from the rear of the car, and removing any downforce from the trunk area.
    Tires are just really expensive wear parts...

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArclightZRO View Post
    I am getting an error when trying to upload an image.

    Imagine a modern sports car, and just at that point where roof-line meets rear glass, there is a short spoiler (which may have a rather steep angle to it). It seems like this would be counterproductive, as the air would be projected away from the rear of the car, and removing any downforce from the trunk area.
    Just imagine I came back with a great answer. LOL
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    Just imagine I came back with a great answer. LOL
    Fair enough
    Have a nice weekend
    Tires are just really expensive wear parts...

  8. #608
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    Roof spoilers, from an aero engineers point of view. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...0BDE&FORM=VIRE

  9. #609
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    So, I've had a random thought. The spoiler of choice here is one that is one that abruptly changes direction of airflow and is a rather large source of drag. My idea based off that is a sort of cross between it and the multiple element wings that are seen in F1. It would be the same basic idea, just with multiple elements subtly overlapping each other to reduce drag.

  10. #610
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    I have a maverick and came across this pic.
    Name:  15590410_1498030136892234_8562378752884393460_n.jpg
Views: 282
Size:  55.8 KB

    Is where the snow is not blowing off, where the air flow is not attaching to?
    It looks like the air starts attaching to the sides of the roof but not the center. I believe its from the bubble shape of the roof. Then then it doesn't attach to the center of the back glass.
    So Im thinking some vortex generators on the back of the roof line will be good. Im not going to flatten the roof but Im wondering if their was a way to get better attachment at front edge of the roof. I have been thinking of ways to flush mount the windshield. Would some sort of small vortex generator along the top of the windshield trim area help the air attach better?
    71 maverick.
    71 comet in build process.
    i work at Current Auto Performance www.currentautoperformance.com. i also build the differentials for San Diego Gear and Axle.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryant View Post
    I have a maverick and came across this pic.
    Name:  15590410_1498030136892234_8562378752884393460_n.jpg
Views: 282
Size:  55.8 KB
    Interesting photo. Looking fwd to hearing The Great Sutton's comments.
    Chris

    Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

  12. #612
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    Houston, TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryant View Post
    I have a maverick and came across this pic.
    Name:  15590410_1498030136892234_8562378752884393460_n.jpg
Views: 282
Size:  55.8 KB

    Is where the snow is not blowing off, where the air flow is not attaching to?
    It looks like the air starts attaching to the sides of the roof but not the center. I believe its from the bubble shape of the roof. Then then it doesn't attach to the center of the back glass.
    So Im thinking some vortex generators on the back of the roof line will be good. Im not going to flatten the roof but Im wondering if their was a way to get better attachment at front edge of the roof. I have been thinking of ways to flush mount the windshield. Would some sort of small vortex generator along the top of the windshield trim area help the air attach better?
    I'd like to see the front of the car. I'd expect to see something on the hood blocking some of the airflow in the center of the car.

  13. #613
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    it should be a stock maverick front hood.
    something like this
    Name:  158172-2015-ford-maverick-std.jpg
Views: 231
Size:  148.0 KB
    71 maverick.
    71 comet in build process.
    i work at Current Auto Performance www.currentautoperformance.com. i also build the differentials for San Diego Gear and Axle.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellPhish89 View Post
    So, I've had a random thought. The spoiler of choice here is one that is one that abruptly changes direction of airflow and is a rather large source of drag. My idea based off that is a sort of cross between it and the multiple element wings that are seen in F1. It would be the same basic idea, just with multiple elements subtly overlapping each other to reduce drag.

    Hmmmm. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying about multiple element spoilers. Can you throw up a crude drawing?

    As far as multiple element wings, nothing is more effective & efficient. They rock.




    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  15. #615
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    Hey Bryant,

    Sorry for the long delay in responding.


    Quote Originally Posted by bryant View Post
    I have a maverick and came across this pic.

    Is where the snow is not blowing off, where the air flow is not attaching to?
    Maybe. Maybe not. It's hard for you & I to say "for sure" from this photo. There could be other factors at play we're not aware of. But If you ran tufts of yarn over the roof, back glass & deck ... and video'd the results from on track runs (straight line & cornering) we'd have a better picture if this is what is happening (or not).

    You might find it does this at 30 mph, but at 60 mph, the flow in the middle improves. Airflow is not always linear. Often times airflow patterns at one speed ... change at higher speeds. Again, until we test, we don't know enough from this photo.




    It looks like the air starts attaching to the sides of the roof but not the center. I believe its from the bubble shape of the roof. Then then it doesn't attach to the center of the back glass.
    Let's "assume" after you ran the "tuft of yarn test" ... we saw the same result as the blown snow would suggest ... I agree the roundness of the roof is causing the airflow to part in the middle. This is why many roofs of modern sports cars dip in the middle.

    So Im thinking some vortex generators on the back of the roof line will be good.
    Yes, typically a few inches in front of the glass.

    Im not going to flatten the roof but Im wondering if their was a way to get better attachment at front edge of the roof. I have been thinking of ways to flush mount the windshield.
    This works.

    Would some sort of small vortex generator along the top of the windshield trim area help the air attach better?

    Probably. But, I wouldn't do that. Since, we're looking for downforce, the area we really care about is the trailing edge of the roof, onto the glass & onto the deck lid. That is where I would focus primarily.

    As far as the front of the roof is concerned, making the windshield flush, minimizing the gap and making the shape of the roof's leading edge blend well with the windshield would reduce turbulence & drag (all good). And it "may or may not" help the airflow in the middle of the roof (and therefore onto the rear glass & deck lid). What would help that, is reshaping the roof like the Vipers with the middle dipped in. Shy of doing that ... I'd suggest focusing on the front nose & splitter, as well as the trailing edge of the roof, rear glass & deck where your wing or spoiler is.

    Make sense?

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  16. #616
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    Makes perfect sense. Looks like ill be doing some gopro roof video yarn and tape testing!
    71 maverick.
    71 comet in build process.
    i work at Current Auto Performance www.currentautoperformance.com. i also build the differentials for San Diego Gear and Axle.

  17. #617
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryant View Post
    Makes perfect sense. Looks like ill be doing some gopro roof video yarn and tape testing!
    Something else I thought of... The car pictures is likely at stock ride height with absolutely "0" rake. The rake our cars have would make a difference on how the air is attaching to the roof in the middle.
    Chris

    Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

  18. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
    Something else I thought of... The car pictures is likely at stock ride height with absolutely "0" rake. The rake our cars have would make a difference on how the air is attaching to the roof in the middle.
    I agree.

    We've tested our high travel front suspension strategies in the wind tunnel. Having the front end dive 4.5" changes the rake from 0.5 to over 3.0 and the downforce increases front & rear. Partially because we reduced the airflow under the car that causes lift & partially because we increased the "attack angle" of the hood & deck lid to the airflow.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
    Something else I thought of... The car pictures is likely at stock ride height with absolutely "0" rake. The rake our cars have would make a difference on how the air is attaching to the roof in the middle.
    Great point! I will try to capture the effect of acceleration and braking on the strings.
    71 maverick.
    71 comet in build process.
    i work at Current Auto Performance www.currentautoperformance.com. i also build the differentials for San Diego Gear and Axle.

  20. #620
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    Bryant,

    I know we have talked about vortex generators but i wanted to share my working with them here also since the topic came up. In working with a "square" body pickup you can imagine aero is a large concern. I talked with the folks at AIRTAB and they provided me with some vortex generators for some testing. During normal driving before the generators the truck felt like i was driving with the ebrake half on. I followed the advice of some here and did some studying on aero and decided to try a row at the rear of my cab line and on my doors to help attach the airflow as it transitions to the bed. First drive felt like my gas pedal was sticking. This truck felt so much better almost like i was gliding down the road. I would like to start some real testing once i get it running again to confirm optimal placement, but the real deal generators DID make a huge difference. Name:  20161112_111057.jpg
Views: 153
Size:  268.0 KB

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