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  1. #41
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    Hi Donny,

    Quote Originally Posted by dontlifttoshift View Post
    Yes, coupe/notchback, a 66 to be more precise. Yes open to changes, VGs have come up in past conversations with other people smarter than me.

    The early coupes have a strange concave reveal around the backglass that makes it interesting back there.
    I have no idea what that concave reveal does to the airflow.

    Sharkfins?
    Not sure what you're asking here?

    When comparing a low angle spoiler to something closer to 70*, if length were adjusted per design could I expect similar downforce results with less drag on the low angle spoiler?
    Unfortunately ... No. If we put a 6" tall, full width spoiler on there at 70 ... it will create more downforce (along with turbulence & drag) than a 12" drag style spoiler at 0 (which would reduce turbulence & drag.)

    If you like (or at least are "OK" with) the 10-12" long drag race style of spoiler, can run it at 10-15 with a 3/4"-1" wicker bill & VG's across the roof, you'd get very similar downforce & way less drag & turbulence.


    Roughly, how much length are we looking at? Is 6" worth the time?
    It's better than not running a spoiler.

    Let's look at it this way. You have a "decent" length deck. I'm guessing 32" ... but I'd like you to measure it & post the correct length. Right now, I'd guess the air is coming off the trailing edge of the roof ... coming down at somewhere around a 30 angle ... and hitting the last 12" of deck length.

    So you realistically only have 12" of body length to help turn the airflow back to horizontal. Been there. Not enough.

    So if you add a 6" spoiler at 0 ... you'd have 18". It's still not enough for optimum, but it's 50% better than 12". Make sense?

    If you added a 12" spoiler, you'd be effectively doubling the surface area the airflow has to push down on the back of the car & distance to change the airflow direction. That's better yet.

    Now, if we add VG's on the trailing edge of the roof, and get the airflow coming off the trailing edge of the roof ... to somewhere around a 50-55 angle ... and hitting the last 24" of deck length ... plus 12" of spoiler ... now we have 36" to work with. That will give us more downforce & turn the airflow back closer to horizontal, reducing turbulence & drag. Just like the Pro/Stock drag cars do.

    Now. if we can add "some" spoiler angle 5-15 and a wicker bill ... we can build plenty of rear downforce for your application.




    We must run with the windows down so nothing to gain there. If the backglass stayed in the stock location but the sail panels stretched back (ala 69 charger) does that help. Theory being that air off the roof can start to settle on to the decklid before having to mix with air from side of the greenhouse.
    I don't think we could know for sure without wind tunnel testing both designs.

    Yes
    Likely
    I don't think I can go full length, but I plan on running the splitter to at least the front crossmember. I am sure I can "pan" from the rocker to at least the SFCs and
    What is the SFC?

    Yes on the diffuser.
    Good.

    Everyone has their own idea styling wise, here is the plan. Hood vents will be as far forward as I can get them, other than that I was trying to keep all the aero work to the bottom of the car.
    What a great looking car. Love the splitter & side splitter look.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post

    John,

    Another thought. If you run track days with the windows down, you could make radiused B-pillar extensions that attach temporarily & get removed for street driving where you can roll the windows up.

    I do run open windows on road tracks so this was my thought when I read your section on B pillar mods. I can attach to the main hoop & triangulation bars of the cage and close it off to the pillar.

    I don't know anyone to test airflow for me so I'll try the brake ducts without fans & check temps with them closed off & opened. Then if it seems like they're not making enough difference in rotor temps I'll install fans.


  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
    I do run open windows on road tracks so this was my thought when I read your section on B pillar mods. I can attach to the main hoop & triangulation bars of the cage and close it off to the pillar.

    I don't know anyone to test airflow for me so I'll try the brake ducts without fans & check temps with them closed off & opened. Then if it seems like they're not making enough difference in rotor temps I'll install fans.

    Cool. Keep us updated on your updates !

    P.S. Kudos on installing seats with full containment head & shoulder supports. Smart move. Very Smart. Do you take them off for street driving? ... or do you drive it much on the street?

    P.P.S. Kudos again on the roll bar design. Whoever designed it knew their stuff.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  4. #44
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    Ron, Thanks!!

    SFC - Sub Frame Connectors
    Donny

    Support your local hot rod shop!

  5. #45
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    Thanks Ron. I'm actually starting on the belly pans this week, so your post couldn't have been at a better time. I'm going to lay it out in cardboard first, and if you don't mind, post some pics for your opinion.
    Craig Scholl
    CJD Automotive, LLC
    Jacksonville, Florida
    904-400-1802
    www.cjdautomotive.com

    "I own a Mopar, I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification."

  6. #46
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    BTW, with the car on the rotisserie, I can't mount the valances. The rear valance is flush to the fuel cell bars. I like your idea of curving up from the bottom of the watts link bracket into the rear valance. I'll lay it out in cardboard and see what you think.

    Thanks again Ron, i am absolutely astounded by the amount of knowledge and help you offer to everyone!
    Craig Scholl
    CJD Automotive, LLC
    Jacksonville, Florida
    904-400-1802
    www.cjdautomotive.com

    "I own a Mopar, I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification."

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by sccacuda View Post
    Thanks Ron. I'm actually starting on the belly pans this week, so your post couldn't have been at a better time. I'm going to lay it out in cardboard first, and if you don't mind, post some pics for your opinion.
    Excellent !
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by sccacuda View Post
    BTW, with the car on the rotisserie, I can't mount the valances. The rear valance is flush to the fuel cell bars. I like your idea of curving up from the bottom of the watts link bracket into the rear valance. I'll lay it out in cardboard and see what you think.
    That will be good. Post photos from different directions.

    Thanks again Ron, i am absolutely astounded by the amount of knowledge and help you offer to everyone!
    No worries. I enjoy it.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  9. #49
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    Ron, thank you for your response. Your approaches to aero-stability make sense. I think what can get people into trouble at very high speeds is that drag forces go up with the square of the velocity. So if you double the velocity, the drag force is 4 times as large. If you have slightly more drag at the front than the rear at moderate speeds (or the coefficient of drag is higher for the front than the rear - likely) then at higher speed, the drag at the front can quickly overwhelm the smaller increase in the rear. It is nice that we have sooo much more information readily available than the pioneers of our sport.
    Larry
    67 Camaro, 350 SB, Custom A-Arms & 3-Link
    My Build http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...LOVE-67-Camaro

  10. #50
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    Wow! Very good info! My car is about as aero friendly as a garage door...

  11. #51
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    Hi Larry,

    Quote Originally Posted by MIKE67 View Post
    Ron, thank you for your response. Your approaches to aero-stability make sense. I think what can get people into trouble at very high speeds is that drag forces go up with the square of the velocity. So if you double the velocity, the drag force is 4 times as large. If you have slightly more drag at the front than the rear at moderate speeds (or the coefficient of drag is higher for the front than the rear - likely) then at higher speed, the drag at the front can quickly overwhelm the smaller increase in the rear.
    I see this problem also when cars test in the wind tunnel at 120mph, then run 200+mph in the real world.

    It is nice that we have sooo much more information readily available than the pioneers of our sport.
    I couldn't agree more. Now "car guys" can make effective aero mods with more confidence.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post

    Cool. Keep us updated on your updates !

    P.S. Kudos on installing seats with full containment head & shoulder supports. Smart move. Very Smart. Do you take them off for street driving? ... or do you drive it much on the street?

    P.P.S. Kudos again on the roll bar design. Whoever designed it knew their stuff.

    I had intended to be able to swap stock seats in for street driving but as we got deeper into the cage install it became apparent that wouldn't really work out very well. So, I just drive it on the street with the Kirkeys. I'll mention the Pros/cons when you start the cage thread.

    JW Racing & Fabrication in CT built the cage and I am very happy with their work. http://jwracing-fab.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=191

  13. #53
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    I build pro-touring cars, but I don't drive them on the track. Or at least I haven't lately since I sold my Nova, and none of my customers are willing to let me beat the crap out of their car.

    My track vehicle is an 07 Z06, with all the ZR1-based aero mods (front splitter, side skirts, rear spoiler), plus an air release in the hood ahead of the front spindle centerline. The word in the pits is that the car needs a rear wing for the best possible lap times, but I'm reluctant to make that step without some crisp data.

    There's little doubt that the car is "lighter" in the back -- my tire temps and delta air pressure during a session point that out. I'm just wondering how to go about making a good (and tasteful, lol) wing choice.
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
    I build pro-touring cars, but I don't drive them on the track. Or at least I haven't lately since I sold my Nova, and none of my customers are willing to let me beat the crap out of their car.

    My track vehicle is an 07 Z06, with all the ZR1-based aero mods (front splitter, side skirts, rear spoiler), plus an air release in the hood ahead of the front spindle centerline. The word in the pits is that the car needs a rear wing for the best possible lap times, but I'm reluctant to make that step without some crisp data.

    There's little doubt that the car is "lighter" in the back -- my tire temps and delta air pressure during a session point that out. I'm just wondering how to go about making a good (and tasteful, lol) wing choice.
    That's easy John - call the guy who has the trickest wing ever, that happened to come off of a C6, and cut a smoking deal... easy peasy.
    James
    1967 Camaro RS - The OLC
    1989 Camaro 1LE - The CMC Car
    1989 Camaro 1LE R7U - The Players Car

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
    I build pro-touring cars, but I don't drive them on the track. Or at least I haven't lately since I sold my Nova, and none of my customers are willing to let me beat the crap out of their car.

    My track vehicle is an 07 Z06, with all the ZR1-based aero mods (front splitter, side skirts, rear spoiler), plus an air release in the hood ahead of the front spindle centerline. The word in the pits is that the car needs a rear wing for the best possible lap times, but I'm reluctant to make that step without some crisp data.

    There's little doubt that the car is "lighter" in the back -- my tire temps and delta air pressure during a session point that out. I'm just wondering how to go about making a good (and tasteful, lol) wing choice.
    LG has two options. The GT-2 version is more tasteful and likely effective enough given your other mods. The World Challenge wing is obscene, but sized appropriately to the rest of the tweaks on that car.
    True T.

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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
    I had intended to be able to swap stock seats in for street driving but as we got deeper into the cage install it became apparent that wouldn't really work out very well. So, I just drive it on the street with the Kirkeys. I'll mention the Pros/cons when you start the cage thread.
    Cool. Thanks !

    JW Racing & Fabrication in CT built the cage and I am very happy with their work. http://jwracing-fab.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=191
    Yes, in my opinion, they did a good design & good install.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
    I build pro-touring cars, but I don't drive them on the track. Or at least I haven't lately since I sold my Nova, and none of my customers are willing to let me beat the crap out of their car.
    Awww.

    My track vehicle is an 07 Z06, with all the ZR1-based aero mods (front splitter, side skirts, rear spoiler), plus an air release in the hood ahead of the front spindle centerline. The word in the pits is that the car needs a rear wing for the best possible lap times, but I'm reluctant to make that step without some crisp data.

    There's little doubt that the car is "lighter" in the back -- my tire temps and delta air pressure during a session point that out. I'm just wondering how to go about making a good (and tasteful, lol) wing choice.

    Hi John,

    I usually don't put much weight on pit talk unless I know & respect the source. You may have some good, experienced guys at the track you value. Your butt is telling you the car is "light" ... and that's what really matters. So it sounds like you need some additional downforce in the rear. But you don't know how much you need. That's normal unless you have an engineering team on your crew. The keys will be getting a small wing that is adjustable.

    I can't tell you what wing to buy, but my suggestions to help in your decision would be:
    • Full width at rear of car
    • Relatively shallow depth/length, 5-6"
    • Strong, solid spill plates
    • Strong, solid mounting system
    • Mounts to strong part of the car/body
    • Low to moderate mounting height 5-7" *
    • Removable wicker bills, or the capacity to utilize wicker bills**
    • Adjustable attack angle, up to 21 **

    * Mount low to help better direct the airflow over the rear of the body ... so as the airflow detaches at rear ... the angle is improved ... and can converge together smoother with airflow from under the car.

    ** Critical: The wing needs to to be adjustable so you can tune & achieve aero balance at the track. The two ways to tune an existing wing are to change the attack angle and/or install wicker bills of different heights & angles. Ideally, you'd get a wing where you can do both. Real racing wings do both. "Show wings" do neither.


    Ultimately, at the track, you'll want to:
    • Have it adjustable for track conditions, weather & different tracks
    • Adjust the rear wing to balance the handling to "snug" or "neutral" whichever you prefer.
    • Add downforce with wing angle or wicker bill until you get the car too tight in mid-to-high speed corners
    • "Trim it out" ... which means to take small amounts of downforce out of the wing to reduce downforce "just enough"


    Make sense?

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  18. #58
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    Good stuff, guys. Ron, as usual, beautifully written, and chock full of tech.

    I found this at Katech:

    http://www.katechengines.com/street_...a%20report.pdf

    Actual measured data from their aero stuff.
    Last edited by parsonsj; 09-05-2013 at 07:43 PM.
    John Parsons



    II Much Fabrication's Blog -- New products, Fabrication sequences, etc.

    II Much Fabrication's Current Build -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
    Good stuff, guys. Ron, as usual, beautifully written, and chock full of tech.
    Thanks.

    I found this at Katech:

    http://www.katechengines.com/street_...a%20report.pdf

    Actual measured data from their aero stuff.

    Nice. That is really helpful for your decision process. I didn't know you were considering a spoiler ... I thought you were "going wing." I personally like the spoiler, but that doesn't matter. As long as you like it.

    P.S. They are getting a lot of downforce from that spoiler. That means the airflow is over the roof & back window is very good, very "attached".

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  20. #60
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    Ron, quick question. Using .120 aluminum unsupported, what do you think would be the maximum width before deflection? I'm asking because I am laying out the belly pans and can extend the front pan out past my air dam. The air dam will support the pan, but how far past that support do you think will be effective before deflection occurs? Same goes on the side splitters. They are supported by the rocker extensions, but how far past that support?

    Thanks, Craig
    Craig Scholl
    CJD Automotive, LLC
    Jacksonville, Florida
    904-400-1802
    www.cjdautomotive.com

    "I own a Mopar, I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification."

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