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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellPhish89 View Post
    Interesting. Using it on the underside of a wing or even splitter would possibly allow for more aggressive angles while mitigating the risk of detachment? Also, there is a direct relation between curve, vortex required, and size/shape of dimple required?
    Absolutely.


    Further, if shape matters, wouldnt a tear drop shaped dimple be closest to ideal?
    No. To create vortices, you need the air to trip over an edge that makes it go into a spin.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
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  2. #542
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    this brings up more questions because of the boundary layer the surface of a golfball creates as it moves through the air. I havent seen anything about the dimples simply creating vorticies. What you are describing is a bit different from my own understanding and am wondering if you can fill in the gap.

  3. #543
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  4. #544
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    I'll be using VG's on my build. I went straight to the aircraft industry. They call them micro VG's. Couple of good companies with good data. Look at the smaller airplanes and the generators designed to work at slow or close to stall speeds. Some are used on the top of the wing, set back from the leading edge, but I don't think this style is what I need. The ones placed on the ailerons and elevators leading edge seem to be what I'm looking for. They are not even visible or in the air stream until the aileron is moved, with the angle similar to the back glass or spoiler.
    Craig Scholl
    CJD Automotive, LLC
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    904-400-1802
    www.cjdautomotive.com

    "I own a Mopar, I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification."

  5. #545
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    I shaved the drip rail, layed the windshield back ~8* and lowered it just over an inch, lowered the roofline slightly and made the roof radius where it meets the glass gentler, flushed the windshield and shaved the trim..... Anyone see something else I can do or something I missed? I just roughed in the bodywork a little and figure it's best to get another set of eyes on it before i continue. Oh and that's 2" masking tape on the windshield to protect the edge when sanding (even though it's cracked lol)
    Attached Images Attached Images    


    JORDAN

  6. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellPhish89 View Post
    this brings up more questions because of the boundary layer the surface of a golfball creates as it moves through the air. I havent seen anything about the dimples simply creating vorticies. What you are describing is a bit different from my own understanding and am wondering if you can fill in the gap.

    I'm back from doing my workshop in Columbus Ohio. Man that was fun. Great group of people attending. Really engaged. Good questions. everyone loved it.

    Now to your question. Hmmm. I'm not sure I can expound on it much more.

    The airflow going over the dimple causes the airflow to swirl & keeping the boundary layer attached better. The best dimple shape is a hexagon, but a circle works too. I don't have any experience with golf balls. None. Nadda. But for small objects we care about airflow, dimples are occasionally used.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
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  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
    Adrian Newey design AM RB 001 concept https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37AjQ1_EKn4

    Love, Love, LOVE the aerodynamics on this car. This is cutting edge stuff. Not very practical for our cars, but incredibly effective.

    Take special note of:
    * How they are pulling the air out the side of the car ... leaving the hood for downforce
    * How the shape of the splitter goes down on the outer edges for maximum downforce on each front tire
    * How the airflow is directed around the front wheels
    * How low angle & long the roof/back glass is ... going to the rear spoiler. Smooth & gentle for maximum airflow attachment & downforce.
    * How the rear out fenders come up to force the over car airflow over the rear decklid & spoiler.
    * How large the rear opening is to allow airflow to exit with ease.

    That is true modern Supercar aerodynamics there. Sweet !


    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

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  8. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BADBET View Post
    I shaved the drip rail, layed the windshield back ~8* and lowered it just over an inch, lowered the roofline slightly and made the roof radius where it meets the glass gentler, flushed the windshield and shaved the trim..... Anyone see something else I can do or something I missed? I just roughed in the bodywork a little and figure it's best to get another set of eyes on it before i continue. Oh and that's 2" masking tape on the windshield to protect the edge when sanding (even though it's cracked lol)

    Man ... Jordan ... that is looking GOOD. Big improvements.

    Some small ones you probably already considered ...
    * One piece side window with no wing window
    * Making the A-pillar flush with the side windows
    * Removal of the door handles

    Now ... just to be clear ... none of the things I listed above will help downforce ... just reduce drag. So the performance gains would be modest.





    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by sccacuda View Post
    I'll be using VG's on my build. I went straight to the aircraft industry. They call them micro VG's. Couple of good companies with good data. Look at the smaller airplanes and the generators designed to work at slow or close to stall speeds. Some are used on the top of the wing, set back from the leading edge, but I don't think this style is what I need. The ones placed on the ailerons and elevators leading edge seem to be what I'm looking for. They are not even visible or in the air stream until the aileron is moved, with the angle similar to the back glass or spoiler.
    Right on track Craig. Just remember the angles they need to be placed at are key.





    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  10. #550
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    I'm going to run cuda door handles and make sure they're flush, I really want to eliminate the vent window but my only option would be polycarbonate as custom glass is waaaaay too much. I might just go that route and save some weight, @ 3700lbs bone stock it needs to go on a diet for sure lol.


    JORDAN

  11. #551
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    Can we talk about some different splitter designs/ features? I've notice a lot of oem and race splitters are raised in the center and dip down at the tire, is the better than having it low all the way across?


    JORDAN

  12. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BADBET View Post
    Can we talk about some different splitter designs/ features? I've notice a lot of oem and race splitters are raised in the center and dip down at the tire, is the better than having it low all the way across?
    Don't run a raised splitter. That requires the underside of the car to be designed specifically to create downforce through controlled speed air exit.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  13. #553
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    What about end plates or dive planes? I have seen some splitters that were not as wide in the center as the ends were, not sure if this is style or function. I've decided to run the fender lip pieces that you mention on page 1 (like the c7 z06) and after seeing spill plates on big red I think I'm going to run them from the windshield all the way back to the spoiler and just black em out.

    Thanks!


    JORDAN

  14. #554
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    Is there a formula to calculate fender vent size needed? Or do I just make them as big as I can (or as big as looks best lol). The car is going to run an air dam, belly pan and splitter so maybe just as big as the radiator opening? I'm cutting out the kick panel vent area and making them like "reverse scoops" that extend into the engine bay like it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Also should they have tiny wicker bills on the edge?

    Thanks


    JORDAN

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BADBET View Post
    What about end plates or dive planes?
    This is where it gets into the gray area of how far do you want to take it versus how the car looks. Performance wise, end plates help keep a larger volume of airflow where we want it ... to further increase downforce. The gain is noticeable/measurable, but not huge. I am a big fan of large end plates on rear wings & spoilers, because they help control yaw when the driver drives the car in DEEP.

    I have seen some splitters that were not as wide in the center as the ends were, not sure if this is style or function.
    Function. The middle generates the most downforce. The outsides, not as much. So by making the splitter longer out on the ends, their goal is to increase the downforce out at the corners. I'm usually not a fan of this strategy. It depends on the race series rules. If we are limited as to how much wing or spoiler we can run in the rear ... and we can easily achieve the front downforce needed for aero balance ... then & only then do I want to reduce the downforce of the splitter in the center.

    Example:
    Let's say all we can get out of the rear wing & body shape (from rules limitations) is 500# of downforce @ 150mph. And to balance the car, we need 400# in the front @ 150 mph. If the splitter rules let us run a 4" splitter ... but a 4" splitter across the front would create 600# of downforce ... then & only then would we start trimming the middle of the splitter to get it down to 400#. Make sense?


    I've decided to run the fender lip pieces that you mention on page 1 (like the c7 z06) and after seeing spill plates on big red I think I'm going to run them from the windshield all the way back to the spoiler and just black em out.

    Thanks!
    Sweet. that will add downforce & stability at high speeds.


    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  16. #556
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BADBET View Post
    Is there a formula to calculate fender vent size needed?
    If there is a specific formula, I'm not familiar with it. But the Aerodynamicists always calc this stuff.

    Or do I just make them as big as I can (or as big as looks best lol).
    Frankly, yes. If they're positioned optimally, you'll need about 40 square inches on each side. If you can't get that much & make it look right, just get as close as you can.

    The car is going to run an air dam, belly pan and splitter so maybe just as big as the radiator opening? I'm cutting out the kick panel vent area and making them like "reverse scoops" that extend into the engine bay like it was mentioned earlier in the thread. Also should they have tiny wicker bills on the edge?

    Thanks

    Maybe not a true wicker bill, but they do need a sharp edge ... like a wicker bill ... so the airflow down the side of the fender going over the vent opening ... detaches cleanly, preventing turbulence.



    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

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  17. #557
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    Awesome thanks Ron, 40 square inches will be easy. I was already looking at making them bigger than that. I want to do a 67 skylark style vent with 3 louvers instead of 2 and bigger to fit the fender so it looks like it supposed to be there and looks good.

    Any ideas on how to get the air to exit the cockpit when racing with the window down? I vaguely remember watching something with smokey yunick and he said they did something to the back window in the old 60s nascar days I just can't remember what it was.... I was thinking of making the back window pop up like how van Windows pop out and using a similar mechanism, I'm just worried about disrupting air over the rear of the car and spoiler.

    I'm trying to do as much as I can before I start the chassis work but I also don't want to put myself in an Awww crap I wish I put that a 1/2 inch lower so this other thing would work perfect lol nothing sucks worse than doing it twice.... Other than saying screw it and leaving it that way lol


    Thanks again for all the help


    JORDAN

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BADBET View Post
    Awesome thanks Ron, 40 square inches will be easy. I was already looking at making them bigger than that. I want to do a 67 skylark style vent with 3 louvers instead of 2 and bigger to fit the fender so it looks like it supposed to be there and looks good.

    Any ideas on how to get the air to exit the cockpit when racing with the window down? I vaguely remember watching something with smokey yunick and he said they did something to the back window in the old 60s nascar days I just can't remember what it was.... I was thinking of making the back window pop up like how van Windows pop out and using a similar mechanism, I'm just worried about disrupting air over the rear of the car and spoiler.

    I'm trying to do as much as I can before I start the chassis work but I also don't want to put myself in an Awww crap I wish I put that a 1/2 inch lower so this other thing would work perfect lol nothing sucks worse than doing it twice.... Other than saying screw it and leaving it that way lol


    Thanks again for all the help

    I don't have a ton of experience with rear window exits, as they are not legal in any racing I did. I flat out LOVE the way the formed lexan windows are are done on a lot of fast back 60's Mustangs. Greg Weld's car has one & it dips down at the top to allow airflow out & down the back glass. No idea what it would take to make one for other cars though.

    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

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  19. #559
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    Do you happen to have a picture? All the pictures I could find of the car don't show the back window. Would it be better have the air exit out at the top of the glass or the bottom? I got some ideas to do it either way. Also do you have an idea for how big the "vent" should be?


    Thanks!!!


    JORDAN

  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1BADBET View Post
    Do you happen to have a picture? All the pictures I could find of the car don't show the back window. Would it be better have the air exit out at the top of the glass or the bottom? I got some ideas to do it either way. Also do you have an idea for how big the "vent" should be?


    Thanks!!!
    Ideally, 60-80 square inches. Found a photo on the internet ...

    Name:  1966-Ford-Mustang-Rear.jpg
Views: 167
Size:  20.7 KB
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

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