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  1. #481
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    AWESOME!!! I'm just trying to optimize every area of the car that I can. Don't want to leave anything on the table.. :D



    JORDAN


  2. #482
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    Hopefully this isn't too basic of a post for this thread.

    Do you have any suggestions on getting the brick wall that is a 72 cutlass, through the air a little better?
    After reading through this thread, it seems that the car is even worse than the pretty bad that I though it was (from an aero standpoint)

    I was thinking a splitter from the rad support forward to push the front end air through the rad/intercooler.
    Until reading the last page I thought venting out the hood just behind the rad, would be a good idea.
    Any suggestions for dealing with all the air that will be hitting the large front end/grill?

    Does adding flat panels to the bottom of the car still help If you have to leave openings for the driveshaft, rear end, etc ?

    Also the rear window is concave (front to rear, its flat left to right)

    Here are a couple pics I stole from around the net, as my car is too far apart to help with the discussion.

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  3. #483
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    Howdy!

    Quote Originally Posted by krom View Post
    Hopefully this isn't too basic of a post for this thread.
    Not at all.

    Do you have any suggestions on getting the brick wall that is a 72 cutlass, through the air a little better?
    After reading through this thread, it seems that the car is even worse than the pretty bad that I though it was (from an aero standpoint)

    I was thinking a splitter from the rad support forward to push the front end air through the rad/intercooler.
    Until reading the last page I thought venting out the hood just behind the rad, would be a good idea.
    Any suggestions for dealing with all the air that will be hitting the large front end/grill?

    Does adding flat panels to the bottom of the car still help If you have to leave openings for the driveshaft, rear end, etc ?

    Also the rear window is concave (front to rear, its flat left to right)

    Before I can offer any guidance, I need to get clear on your goals.
    Are you trying to reduce drag? And if so, why? What's the end goal?
    Or
    Are you trying to increase down force ... for more grip ... to make the car quicker on track?
    Or
    ??????

    P.S. I LOVE the style of those 68-72 A-Bodies ... all of them! Frankly, they're not "clean" through the air. They are what we call dirty, with lots of little turbulent areas & drag around .50+/-. But the basic shape allows us to make them pretty sporty when it comes to creating downforce & grip.



    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  4. #484
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    Back to the hood extractors, James Shipka installed some on the One Lap Camaro. He has done a lot of aero work on the car some of it obvious like the front air dam and rear wing and some very subtle like the front wheel well flair. This is the only pic I could find at the moment. I would love to see some under hood detail photos of the hood extractors.

    Steve Hayes
    "Dust Off"
    68 Camaro

    Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you!
    "Jeremy Clarkson"

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    Thanks for the welcome back.

    I don't think I can answer your question definitively. Partially because the Meredith affect is about creating forward thrust. I have no experience achieving that, because no one I worked with believed it was possible. So they didn't spend any time or resources trying it. "Someone" may have made it work with measurable results in a race car. But I don't know any who did.

    But if we're talking about directing airflow via the radiator/cooling system to force it out of the bay more quickly lowering drag and lift ... which is not technically the Meredith effect ... then absolutely yes. As the air comes off the back of the radiator and/or coolers ... the heated air expands. If left with no easy way out ... this dead headed air increases drag & causes lift. If the hot air stays in there ... it has other bad effects too ... heating up the engine and preventing the radiator & coolers from being as effective as they can be. We want to get that hot, pressurized air OUT. So we want to give it a clearly defined, straight forward as possible, easy, exit path.

    A lot of amateurs do this through hood ducting/venting. I am opposed to doing that route unless we have access to wind tunnel & can insure the airflow we're exiting out the hood is not crashing & roiling with the airflow over the hood. There are many ways to skin the cat. I come from the background of using the airflow over the hood ... when it reaches the windshield ... which acts as a spoiler ... slowing the airflow & becoming pressurized ... creating downforce across 90% of the hood surface ... which is awesome sauce for front tire grip. So ... I prefer to duct the hot, pressurized airflow from under hood ... out the side of the fenders ... where it is not affecting downforce over the car ... especially on the critical front end.

    I have some friends in GT racing that work with cars with VERY effective hood ducting, that pulls the air off the back of the radiator ... out the top of the hood ... and aim it onto the windshield at the optimum angle ... to keep the hood creating downforce ... and not causing turbulent air over the windshield & roof. I'm not saying an amateur can't achieve the same thing without a wind tunnel ... but I don't think I could do it without a wind tunnel. I don't have the experience.



    I think one major issue with most is they do not attempt to duct it. Another major issue that I think exists is that they are brute forcing the air through the radiator instead of trying to optimize the airs ability to carry away heat they just force as much air through as possible. I see your point with turbulence. On a less extreme car, would a channel inlayed into the hood for that airhelp that transition?

    Concerning the vent issue: It's the reason why DTM, GTLM, GTE, etc cars all have hoods that have giant vents that look like roller coasters heh. This years BMW M6 in GTLM is a great example of that:


    BTW, that M6 is huge..lol.

    Now the meredith effect: Interesting that most dont think it can be used. While one may not actually see thrust per say, they could see a sort of cancellation of radiator caused drag. At least to an extent in theory. Essentially, the idea would be to lower the drag in a way that resembles a car without air going through the radiator. Everything I've read so far implies it needs a 'combustion' or rather more appropriately an expansion chamber. The expansion being due to heating and what I would want to harness somehow.

    Any ideas on how to experiment? Old heating core, box, fan, monometer, and run boiling water through the core measuring pressure on either side?

  6. #486
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    Hey Guys ... catching a plane to Nashville ... then on to Bowling Green for Cars & Cones ... then my workshop on Saturday at Ridetech HQ ... then meetings in Indy ... and finally back home on Tuesday. I'll jump back on here then.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  7. #487
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    They started to do that type stuff back in the the Can Am race cars like the McClaren F8 https://fic.kr/p/cIFDL. And the IMSA Camel GT race cars
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  8. #488
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    The IMSA cars are like bellbottom pants, disco and Saturday Night Fever. They were very cool back in the 70's, but today they look kind of odd. The style is definitely dated.
    Steve Hayes
    "Dust Off"
    68 Camaro

    Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you!
    "Jeremy Clarkson"

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    Howdy!



    Before I can offer any guidance, I need to get clear on your goals.
    Are you trying to reduce drag? And if so, why? What's the end goal?
    Or
    Are you trying to increase down force ... for more grip ... to make the car quicker on track?
    Or
    ??????

    P.S. I LOVE the style of those 68-72 A-Bodies ... all of them! Frankly, they're not "clean" through the air. They are what we call dirty, with lots of little turbulent areas & drag around .50+/-. But the basic shape allows us to make them pretty sporty when it comes to creating downforce & grip.



    My goal is just to improve what I have while the body is off the frame, without going crazy. Just looking for a couple ideas to "clean" it up some. I'm planning for 550-600 rwhp, reinforcing the frame, and notching it for a mini tub.
    Car will only see one or 2 track days a year.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by HellPhish89 View Post
    I think one major issue with most is they do not attempt to duct it. Another major issue that I think exists is that they are brute forcing the air through the radiator instead of trying to optimize the airs ability to carry away heat they just force as much air through as possible. I see your point with turbulence. On a less extreme car, would a channel inlayed into the hood for that airhelp that transition?

    Concerning the vent issue: It's the reason why DTM, GTLM, GTE, etc cars all have hoods that have giant vents that look like roller coasters heh. This years BMW M6 in GTLM is a great example of that:


    BTW, that M6 is huge..lol.

    Now the meredith effect: Interesting that most dont think it can be used. While one may not actually see thrust per say, they could see a sort of cancellation of radiator caused drag. At least to an extent in theory. Essentially, the idea would be to lower the drag in a way that resembles a car without air going through the radiator. Everything I've read so far implies it needs a 'combustion' or rather more appropriately an expansion chamber. The expansion being due to heating and what I would want to harness somehow.

    Any ideas on how to experiment? Old heating core, box, fan, monometer, and run boiling water through the core measuring pressure on either side?
    You might have skimmed my answer too quick. The 2nd paragraph ...

    But if we're talking about directing airflow via the radiator/cooling system to force it out of the bay more quickly lowering drag and lift ... which is not technically the Meredith effect ... then absolutely yes. As the air comes off the back of the radiator and/or coolers ... the heated air expands. If left with no easy way out ... this dead headed air increases drag & causes lift. If the hot air stays in there ... it has other bad effects too ... heating up the engine and preventing the radiator & coolers from being as effective as they can be. We want to get that hot, pressurized air OUT. So we want to give it a clearly defined, straight forward as possible, easy, exit path.

    So while we're not trying to achieve thrust ... we are effectively removing this hot, expanded air, to reduce drag & improve cooling.

    The new BMW in your photo is a prime example of how to extract air through the hood right.

    Two more are these examples of doing it right.

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    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  11. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zspoiler View Post
    They started to do that type stuff back in the the Can Am race cars like the McClaren F8 https://fic.kr/p/cIFDL. And the IMSA Camel GT race cars
    WOW ! That photo is way throw back.



    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by krom View Post
    My goal is just to improve what I have while the body is off the frame, without going crazy. Just looking for a couple ideas to "clean" it up some. I'm planning for 550-600 rwhp, reinforcing the frame, and notching it for a mini tub.
    Car will only see one or 2 track days a year.

    I'm back. Your goals still are clear to me.

    Are you trying to reduce drag or increase downforce?




    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheJDMan View Post
    The IMSA cars are like bellbottom pants, disco and Saturday Night Fever. They were very cool back in the 70's, but today they look kind of odd. The style is definitely dated.
    Agreed. Even if I was doing a throw back car, I can't wrap my head around those old attempts at aero.




    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post

    I'm back. Your goals still are clear to me.

    Are you trying to reduce drag or increase downforce?





    sorry,
    trying to reduce drag

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    But if we're talking about directing airflow via the radiator/cooling system to force it out of the bay more quickly lowering drag and lift ... which is not technically the Meredith effect ... then absolutely yes. As the air comes off the back of the radiator and/or coolers ... the heated air expands. If left with no easy way out ... this dead headed air increases drag & causes lift. If the hot air stays in there ... it has other bad effects too ... heating up the engine and preventing the radiator & coolers from being as effective as they can be. We want to get that hot, pressurized air OUT. So we want to give it a clearly defined, straight forward as possible, easy, exit path.
    I read this part. What I'm asking goes farther than venting engine bay pressure and harnessing the expansion to not just lower drag but nearly negate it. It is possible the room simply doesnt exist in most cars to do it correctly. Also possible that the cars arent traveling fast enough to make use of it. I guess the better and more likely layout is a low air speed, high pressure radiator inlet plus a well laid out vent setup. Meredith wouldve likely had kittens if he could play with todays sports cars..

  16. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by krom View Post
    sorry,
    trying to reduce drag
    Gotcha. I'll do my best, but reducing drag as the primary goal is not my strong suit. Hopefully someone with more experience with that goal will chime in and add things I don't.

    Below is a list of "what will reduce drag". They are NOT recommendations ... just options. You'll need to decide which ones you want to do.
    * Bring the grille flush with the leading edge of the hood
    * Headlight mounts that bring the headlights flush with the front end -or- headlight covers that create a flush, smooth surface for airflow onto the hood
    * Making the nose flush all way across, including the bumper
    * Removal of any trim, vents or forward facing scoops on the hood
    * Closing up the gap between the hood & the windshield
    * More aerodynamic mirrors
    * Filling openings in the bumper
    * Re contour bumper so the signal lights are flush (or eliminate them & place them elsewhere)
    * Elimination of fender opening trim
    * Elimination of all trim on body
    * Elimination of rain rails above windows
    * Making front windshield flush with a-Pillars & roof
    * Making side glass flush with a-Pillars, roof & B-pillars
    * Making rear window flush with roof & B pillars
    * Making side marker lights flush with body
    * Removal of door handles / or / Making door handles flush
    * Closing up wheel well openings in front of & behind tires (making the gaps smaller)
    * Making the bumpers fit smooth to the body (front & back)
    * Lowering the car (less airflow under the car is less drag)
    * Smoothing out the underside of the car's airflow (Bellypan, etc)
    * Rear Diffuser
    * Tighten the gaps on all fenders, doors, hood, etc.
    * Lastly, an airdam with a small lip (like a splitter) will create some downforce on the front & prevent a certain volume of air from going under the car. I believe, if designed properly, the reduction in drag under the car will offset the increased drag at the airdam.

    Like I said, reducing drag as the primary goal is not my strong suit. Hopefully someone with more real world experience with drag reduction will jump on here and add in things I did not list.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  17. #497
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    Ron,

    In the 2 pictures of the BMW's you show, the exit point on the hood is pretty different. On the M6 (the first one, that's what I think it is), the ducts are close to the hood, which is typically a low pressure area. Perhaps on that car the aero is different than on our own musclecars with their sleeker hood to windshield transition... Thoughts?

    I have considered adding some type of vent / extraction on my hood to help get the hot air out from under the hood. My car gets hot under the hood! Then the question of where to place them comes into play. I was looking at something close to the radiator, in the middle 1/3 of the hood. I'm wondering if placing them further back, more in plane with my shaker, would be a better choice? This would be less for downforce (I wouldn't do the big ducts these cars do), but just for hot air to have a path out of the engine compartment...
    Bryan (a.k.a. Carbuff)

    70 Camaro RS Hunk'o'Metal - Previous Project
    71 Firebird Project T.O.W. - New Project

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbuff View Post
    Ron,

    In the 2 pictures of the BMW's you show, the exit point on the hood is pretty different. On the M6 (the first one, that's what I think it is), the ducts are close to the hood, which is typically a low pressure area. Perhaps on that car the aero is different than on our own musclecars with their sleeker hood to windshield transition... Thoughts?

    I have considered adding some type of vent / extraction on my hood to help get the hot air out from under the hood. My car gets hot under the hood! Then the question of where to place them comes into play. I was looking at something close to the radiator, in the middle 1/3 of the hood. I'm wondering if placing them further back, more in plane with my shaker, would be a better choice? This would be less for downforce (I wouldn't do the big ducts these cars do), but just for hot air to have a path out of the engine compartment...
    Hey Bryan,

    I notice on the gray BMW, with the hood extraction vents directly in front of the windshield, the steep angle of the ducts matches the steep windshield angle. I "think" they are getting all of the downforce they can on the hood before this vent ... then the exiting air is either blending or pushing the airflow over the windshield. But I don't know the engineers involved in this car to ask & confirm this.

    On the white BMW, with a different body shape altogether, the vents have a longer, more gentle curved transition onto the top of the hood. I "think" they are attempting (and probably achieving) to run the hot, expanding, airflow across the top of the hood to create more downforce on the surface area between the vents & the windshield. But again, just theorizing. Without a wind tunnel or an Aerodynamicist with experience in this strategy, it's just chatter.

    So ... because we tend to go with what we know works ... I like to vent the heated, expanding, high pressure air out the side ... via side extractors ... like the C7 Corvette shown here. The side vent strategy also benefits from venting out the turbulent (drag causing) air in the front fenderwell also.






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    Last edited by Ron Sutton; 05-12-2016 at 09:20 AM.
    Feel free to chime in or ask technical questions. I am here to help where I can.

    Ron Sutton

    Ron Sutton Race Technology
    Your One Stop, Turn & Go Fast, Car Building Resource Center for Autocross, Track, Road Racing & Triple Duty Pro-Touring Cars

    Check out our 400 Page Car Building Catalog HERE

    Features: Suspension, Chassis, Cages, Brakes, Rear Ends, Engines, Transmisssions, Aero & Much, Much More!

  19. #499
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    The 1978-81 Z-28 Camaro`s had side vents to vent engine heat,And the 1980 Chevrolet Camaro Ultra Z Turbo Concept car had 1978-9 side vents in the hood.And then the Roadster Shops 1970 Camaro "Rampage" did it another way.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  20. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
    Gotcha. I'll do my best, but reducing drag as the primary goal is not my strong suit. Hopefully someone with more experience with that goal will chime in and add things I don't.

    Below is a list of "what will reduce drag". They are NOT recommendations ... just options. You'll need to decide which ones you want to do.
    * Bring the grille flush with the leading edge of the hood
    * Headlight mounts that bring the headlights flush with the front end -or- headlight covers that create a flush, smooth surface for airflow onto the hood
    * Making the nose flush all way across, including the bumper
    * Removal of any trim, vents or forward facing scoops on the hood
    * Closing up the gap between the hood & the windshield
    * More aerodynamic mirrors
    * Filling openings in the bumper
    * Re contour bumper so the signal lights are flush (or eliminate them & place them elsewhere)
    * Elimination of fender opening trim
    * Elimination of all trim on body
    * Elimination of rain rails above windows
    * Making front windshield flush with a-Pillars & roof
    * Making side glass flush with a-Pillars, roof & B-pillars
    * Making rear window flush with roof & B pillars
    * Making side marker lights flush with body
    * Removal of door handles / or / Making door handles flush
    * Closing up wheel well openings in front of & behind tires (making the gaps smaller)
    * Making the bumpers fit smooth to the body (front & back)
    * Lowering the car (less airflow under the car is less drag)
    * Smoothing out the underside of the car's airflow (Bellypan, etc)
    * Rear Diffuser
    * Tighten the gaps on all fenders, doors, hood, etc.
    * Lastly, an airdam with a small lip (like a splitter) will create some downforce on the front & prevent a certain volume of air from going under the car. I believe, if designed properly, the reduction in drag under the car will offset the increased drag at the airdam.

    Like I said, reducing drag as the primary goal is not my strong suit. Hopefully someone with more real world experience with drag reduction will jump on here and add in things I did not list.


    How much will laying the windshield back help or how far back before it makes a difference?


    JORDAN

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