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    1. #21
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      Many moons ago when Mark @ Lateral Dynamics was going through his 3 link build the lower link convergence discussion came about. How do you feel about the lower links converging and its with effect on roll steer.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      Many moons ago when Mark @ Lateral Dynamics was going through his 3 link build the lower link convergence discussion came about. How do you feel about the lower links converging and its with effect on roll steer.
      Can you post a link to the build?


    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
      I agree. And there are a lot of car guys this way ... and there are a lot of car guys that want to buy quality with the engineering already in it ... and simply "bolt-on" performance without having to fabricate or build from scratch, nor learn all this tuning & geometry stuff. I like the diversity & think there is a place for all of us.

      These days, with the quality designed & manufactured products from DSE, Speedtech, ridetech, Maier & several others ... you can buy & install amazing stuff. I see great parts, kits & complete assemblies that tremendously improve the performance of car from the 50's-80's. It is awesome. Not only do cars with these parts & kits perform well on the street, they can be somewhat competitive at track days & AutoX. The bolt on car guys are not going to beat the "Thinker & Tuner" car guys in competition on any regular basis. But it's fun for all of us to do this our own way. I love that about hot rodding in general.

      I'm in for some reading if you have some recommendations. I'm going on a 2 week biz travel in September, better than wasting time watching the tube.
      Greg Fast
      (yes, the last name is spelled correctly)

      1970 Camaro RS Clone
      1984 el Camino
      1973 MGB vintage E/Prod race car
      (Soon to be an SCCA H/Prod limited prep)

    4. #24
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      Suggested Books

      If you desire to learn about chassis set-ups & suspension tuning
      , there are a few good books... covering design, engineering, theories, tuning, etc ... I think the right book for a person depends on how in-depth they plan to get. There are great books, good books, ok books & horrible books written on the subject. Some books contain old school information ... some newer technology ... and some in-between.

      I often recommend books, but the right one depends on the person's goals. Based on you being new to all of this, I would recommend these books, in this order. If at any point, it's get so complex, you're not enjoying it, that's a place to stop. On the other hand if you become hungry for more in-depth knowledge, then work your way through the list.

      1. Herb Adams was the "go-to" guy in the 70's & 80's. Technology has advanced quite a bit, but this book is an excellent starting point. It's a good read & much of it is still relevant. Just be open minded that some suspension set-ups have advanced & changed dramatically. Go HERE.

      When it comes to books, they are all behind what professional race teams are doing. Top race teams with 30 Engineers, full Research & Development staffs & state-of-the-art testing technology ... are understandably reluctant to share info ... until it's so old it won't hurt them competitively. So with books, there will always be a lag.

      Steve Smith race suspension books are the easiest to understand & have somewhat up to date stuff on advanced suspension set-ups. Don't ignore it because it's oval track. While there are some differences ... handling is handling ... and NASCAR teams utilize cutting edge technology today. I recommend two books from them.

      2. HERE
      3. HERE

      4, 5 & 6. The best books ever are from Carroll Smith (passed away several years back). They are a little hard to read, for a rookie & non-engineer, but a very solid foundation. The three I suggest you start with are “Prepare to Win”, "Engineer to Win" & "Tune to Win." Go HERE, HERE & HERE.

      7. Finally, the most complex, in engineering speak, is from Mitchell & Mitchell, titled Race Car Vehicle Dynamics. See it HERE.

      I have found this forum & Pro Touring people in general to be both knowledgeable & open to sharing. So don't be afraid to simply ask guys. You'll find they're open with information until you get close to beating them, and you have to figure out the last stuff all by yourself. Which is how it should be in a competitive environment.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ron Sutton View Post
      Can you post a link to the build?

      all gone. This was back in 02....i'll see if I can find the thread on corner carvers.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    6. #26
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      No worries. You mentioned the convergence discussion on his thread & asked my "feelings" on it ... ... so I needed to know what the discussion was, before I could comment.

      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      Many moons ago when Mark @ Lateral Dynamics was going through his 3 link build the lower link convergence discussion came about. How do you feel about the lower links converging and its with effect on roll steer.
      Instead of looking it up, we can just discuss your specific questions. I'm quite familiar with the design & other 3-link design variations.
      Last edited by Ron Sutton; 08-12-2013 at 11:38 AM.

    7. #27
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      heres a small snippit post sema 2005 http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/show...hlight=mustang
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      heres a small snippit post sema 2005 http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/show...hlight=mustang
      Cool. I'll look it over tomorrow.

      But I'm still not clear on what you're asking. Can you clarify what you want to discuss or what your questions are?


    9. #29
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      Sorry Boostedsport for butting in.

      I have a project that converging the lower links is the only way to I can mount them. The Lateral Dynamics 3 link uses converging lowers.

      Lower links are 27" and upper is 19".

      Is there a degree that I should not exceed? And what effects can I look forward to? Roll steer being one of them.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      Sorry Boostedsport for butting in.

      I have a project that converging the lower links is the only way to I can mount them. The Lateral Dynamics 3 link uses converging lowers.

      Lower links are 27" and upper is 19".

      Is there a degree that I should not exceed? And what effects can I look forward to? Roll steer being one of them.
      This is what forums are for! I don't care about people butting in for informational reasons, because we all enjoy the same passion. I just dislike when people give uneducated opinions. And it seems Ron needs his own section in this forum(just kidding)!

    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      Sorry Boostedsport for butting in.

      I have a project that converging the lower links is the only way to I can mount them. The Lateral Dynamics 3 link uses converging lowers.

      Lower links are 27" and upper is 19".

      Is there a degree that I should not exceed? And what effects can I look forward to? Roll steer being one of them.
      Now I understand why you were asking. I wasn't clear before, so I didn't know what you wanted to discuss about a 3-link with converging lowers.

      Here are some basic tips, in no particular order:
      Ideally, when designing, building or installing a 3-link ... you want all 3 links to run parallel to the chassis for a few key reasons. First, this keeps the forces running parallel with the chassis ... so less energy loss. Second, this reduces torque steer. And third, you don't have any rear steer unless you want it.

      In a parallel 3-link, by setting the lower links level, you can achieve zero rear steer ... and you can induce oversteer effect with the lower links running uphill going forward ... or understeer effect with the lower links running downhill going forward.

      I would only go with a 3-link with converging lower links If I needed to for fitment issues. And then I would not angle them anymore than you absolutely need. There is no magic number. Just know a shorter convergent arm will increase rear steer. Go as long as possible with the convergent IC to reduce the rear steer effect. Also, you should install mounts with holes and/or slots in the front frame mounts & the rear housing mounts. I would slot one end, so you can fine tune the angle of the links to control the rear steer effect.

      In a 3-link with converging lowers, you automatically have rear steer adding oversteer, but you can counter it by running the lower links running downhill going forward. Unless you desire rear steer effect, you will want to do this. I can not tell you the degree downward, as it will depend on the length & converging angle of the lower links. This will also reduce the torque steer effect, caused by the converging lowers. But it will not make the rear end torque neutral. only offsetting the upper link can do that.

      The ratio of lengths between the upper & lower links is somewhat important. Not life or death important ... but important. The bigger the difference, the more the pinion angle will change during suspension travel. Some folks think the uppers are supposed to be shorter than the lowers ... but that's not correct ... it just often works out that way for packaging reasons.

      27" lower links is a good length. 19" upper links aren't optimum, but they're not "horrible" either. Part of the equation is how far apart are they. But it would be better if you can get them a little closer in length to each other. You'll have less pinion angle issues if you do. What I suggest would be to rotate the lower mounts forward ... to shorten them a bit ... say to 25-26" ... and build an upper housing mount that moves the pivot well behind the axle centerline ... say 2-3" ... so you end up with 21-22" upper links. The pinion angle will change less this way.

      Refer to all the info above for heights, mounting methods, etc. Lastly, if you want to offset the upper link, let me know & I'll guide you on that.


    12. #32
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      I can actually swing 26 lower and a 21 upper. Lower mounts are made but I can rotate the lower a tad. It will help with my coil over angles.

      As soon as I get it mapped out I'll post my findings.

      Thanks again Ron.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick View Post
      I can actually swing 26 lower and a 21 upper. Lower mounts are made but I can rotate the lower a tad. It will help with my coil over angles.
      Cool. That will be better.

      As soon as I get it mapped out I'll post my findings.
      Cool. Post photos too.

      Thanks again Ron.
      No worries. Glad to help.


    14. #34
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      This has been one of the more informative threads I've read recently. Ron, thank you for sharing your knowledge. I would also like an advanced copy of the book you're writing!
      Doug

      1970 chevelle, carb'd, turbo'd 383ci with a tremec tko.

    15. #35
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      Thanks for the kind words.

    16. #36
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      Sorry to dig up an older topic but it's stickied so I figure I'm safe lol.
      Since one of the things discussed was a 3 link style what about a torque arm set up? Something similar to the factory f body that runs further up the chassis?
      Am I getting too far off topic asking about panhard vs watts link? What about coil over mounting location/angle (how wide in the chassis, straight up/down or angled)? Links to a similar easy to digest explanation if we don't want to get into it here please?
      Lastly, since this is the truck section and my whale weighs in at 5200lbs any recommendations on link tube/rod end sizing?

      Just want to say what a great read. One of the best explanations I've come across putting it into "regular car guy" terms. If your book is out yet Ron where can I buy one? Thank you for your insight.

    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bottledbird68 View Post
      Sorry to dig up an older topic but it's stickied so I figure I'm safe lol.
      Since one of the things discussed was a 3 link style what about a torque arm set up? Something similar to the factory f body that runs further up the chassis?
      Am I getting too far off topic asking about panhard vs watts link? What about coil over mounting location/angle (how wide in the chassis, straight up/down or angled)? Links to a similar easy to digest explanation if we don't want to get into it here please?
      Lastly, since this is the truck section and my whale weighs in at 5200lbs any recommendations on link tube/rod end sizing?

      Just want to say what a great read. One of the best explanations I've come across putting it into "regular car guy" terms. If your book is out yet Ron where can I buy one? Thank you for your insight.
      Howdy ... (what's your name?),

      Post up your specific questions about torque arm suspensions ... and panhard bars/watt's links ... and let's see if they are quick answers to cover in this thread or worthy of their own thread.

      Thanks - Ron Sutton



    18. #38
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      Oct 2008
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      26
      I'm Matt ;)
      As for torque arm I know it's basically a 3 link, just a much longer (normally) third link. You said the 3 link was better for cornering but not as strong for launching. A big beefy arm running parallel to the driveshaft mounted to its own crossmember would fix that I would assume? Basically a loose copy of the factory third/fourth gen f body set up. Or does the big goofy arm just make for a suspension tuning nightmare?
      As for watts link vs panhard, all my reading says watts link better but not as tune able as a panhard. Is it worth the extra effort from a regular guy standpoint to enginer a proper watts or just panhard it and call it a day?



      Back story, my 99 Sierra needs a frame replacement anyhow so I figure while I'm at it why not get the most I can out of it. I'm also a little off in the fact that it is and will stay 4wd. However it is lowered, not a woods machine. I live in New England and drive it year round. My fiances lowered wrx is awesome in the snow, no reason my lowered 4x4 won't be too lol. That being said it weighs 5200lbs with me in it. Currently has a 500 horse 6.0 in it and it's either getting nitrous or a turbo for next season so I need something beefy to avoid tearing the rear out of the truck.
      So, since you seem to be very down to earth lay it on me, am I Insane and wasting my time or are there reasonable gains to be had? I'm not in dreamland thinking it'll out corner a Ferrari but I want to get the most I can out of my whale


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