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    1. #21
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
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      Minneapolis, mn
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      214
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      Quote Originally Posted by IndyDave View Post
      Street Machine Class: (SMC)
      • All vehicles must be 1955 and newer in appearance, representing a production car.
      Hot Rod Class: (SR)
      • All vehicles must be 1954 or older cars in appearance, no trucks, deliveries or panels allowed in this class.
      • High-Boys and Roadsters are not required to run fenders or hood sides.

      Truck Class: (TT)
      • Any vehicle with a Bed, Panel trucks, Deliveries, El Caminos and Rancheros will be in this class.
      1940 and older trucks are not required to run fenders or hood sides.
      • Fuel tanks do NOT have to be in stock location but must be securely mounted.
      • All truck entries will be determined on a case by case basis. No high center of gravity vehicles.
      I'm not fully understanding these rules. Lots of the earlier trucks are based on their car counterparts.



      Take my Vehicle for instance. It's a 1950 Willys Pick up. I plan to run it fenderless. Where do I fit?
      Sean

      50 Willys Pick up.


    2. #22
      Join Date
      Oct 2010
      Location
      San Diego
      Posts
      51
      Country Flag: United States
      With regards to this post, is it smart to exclude all older cars/trucks? What if it was just a year and/or platform restriction? What if we could attract some older Nissans, BMWs or Lotus etc? Everything but Hondas. One of these past weekends there was a sweet little 510 with a 5.0 in it. Yes he was probably super light and fast but the fact that he couldn't fit that big a tire in there meant he couldn't stick it in the corners. Maybe huge fender extensions to fit those huge tires could be part of the 10% exterior modification rule. In theory this would prevent those go-kart inspired cars. Just spit balling here.
      1966 Ford Fairlane
      mods: blood, sweat, and beers

    3. #23
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
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      San Diego
      Posts
      432
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      Quote Originally Posted by soloracerSD View Post
      Following what Dan wrote Just take SM and allow upper control arm drops 200 tread ware.do the same to ESP. Pick a cut off year or do something we though about .pic a year like 1976.but any car built on a platform same as 1976 like Camaros are allowed .It keeps Mustang Fox bodies out. Just ESP classed spoilers for areo and frame support in ESP and SM..anything more and your SU.

      Maybe just SU for the first year.

      Picking a cut off year is where people will start to ask .why not one more year so I'm in..
      to add ..adjusting the weight formula would help to for SCCA SM street Modified vs Vintage Muscle SM

      SM weight formula is 1800+(200 x liters)=car weight plus a 200lb drop if on 275 wide tires or narrower. Page 199 in the rule book. To keep the larger cars in the mix it will help to change 200 to 260..In SM the controlled weight ends at 3100 that means any motor size after 3100lb..change it to 3500.WE have locally a 66 Fairlane.66 Chevelle and a 68 Roadrunner.Roadrunner not as often these days..

      These are just suggestions ,I don't have a PT car so I'm neutral on the hole think..

      Reading a rule book can be overwellming at first.To know where I get my details just read pages 81 to 113 in the SCCA solo 2 rule book,107 is where SM starts and things become unrestricted. then page 199.Prepared classes start at page 114.If you want total unrestricted try X-Prepared. Attaching SCCA class rules to a supplement regulations is simple.

      Good Guys has done a great thing by introducing many to Autocross.So CAL Challenge also. Both these orginizations are experiencing growing pains.After you drive for fun then you want fair competition.The SCCA started dealing with it 60 years ago.And work on fair competition every year.

      with time come more details..THATS RACING...

      Great to see the opportunities out there to autocross.Just over a year ago I only thought there was SCCA .or a PORCHE club..Then I went to a Del Mar Good Guys event.PEOPLE ARE AUTOCROSSING MUSCLE CARS and I was hearing those days of Mustangs amnd Camaros at the autocross days are over.

    4. #24
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
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      1,758
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      I'd guess about 60-70 percent of the cars that show up at our SCCA events every month are running on some sort of comp tire or another. I got as far as I could get with my 300 TW street tires...and typically finished about 70th out of 100 in raw time.

      I then found a used set of rims and a friend that could supply me with Club Racing used Hoosier A6s and for less that $200 including mounting and balancing I shaved 3-4 seconds off of my times and now I can finish in the mid 20s out of 100 or so in raw time. This made things MUCH more interesting to me. Not only was the car a LOT more fun to drive, but I didn't feel like I was getting my arse handed to me every time out. I got 6 events out of my first set of used tires before cording the right front, my second set should last me the rest of the year easily. All while remaining Street Modified legal.

      Even though I'll finish in the 20s in raw time, I'll still be in the 30-40s in PAX because the modifier for SM is next to nothing, but I just chose to live with that and deal with not winning or running competitively in the PAX race.

      What are those of you with Regions running a PT class using as a PAX modifier...if anything?

      And do you think most PT car owners have an aversion to running a Comp tire for an autocross event? To me, the tire difference is way more important that drop UCA mounts for example.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    5. #25
      Join Date
      Sep 2011
      Location
      Speedway In.
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      191
      Country Flag: United States
      We're using ESP (.849) X .90 for a PAX but seriously, who cares about PAX? My opinion is PAX has it's place but in most situations all it serves is as an ego-stroke mechanism. In class competition, it makes no difference. It works OK as an index system for events where there's inter-class competition.

      Around here the R-comp to street tire ratio is reversed. The vast majority of our competitors are on street tires. IMO if PT classes occur in SCCA I think it would be wise to keep them on the same type of street tires the other bodies require.
      Dave Dusterberg
      http://www.facebook.com/camchallengeeast
      1979 Aspen R/T (under construction soon to be #19 CAM/T)
      2002 Ram 1500 SLT
      2005 Magnum R/T
      2005 Mustang GT #19 CAM/C

    6. #26
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      Aug 2012
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      Peoria, AZ
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      Hmmm, that is interesting. Since Lincoln, NE is so close to here, a lot of our guys travel to the National events there and set their cars up to run in classes that they can compete in there. There are some of them that are trying the new road tire classes this year...talk about a PAXing nightmare to try to figure out. The PAX makes sense when handicapping stock cars, but above and beyond the stock classes it doesn't make much sense to me either.

      I'm not that familiar with ESP, how much suspension modification can be done to an ESP car.

      Basically it sounds like you can either use tires, or extensive suspension mods, or both to make your car handle better and be classed accordingly.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    7. #27
      Join Date
      Feb 2012
      Location
      Yuma, AZ
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      192
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      Even though ESP is a "prepared" class, the biggest limitations are to drive line and suspension pick up points.
      -Drive line must retain factory long block and cam, and can be overbored no more than .043
      -No relocation of suspension pick up points, and bushings cannot be made of metal.

    8. #28
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Posts
      321
      I've been thinking of the idea of building my truck ( 2013 GMC ) for SCCA but not sure how big it is in my part of the woods ( South Louisiana ) ill have to research some more on the subject.

    9. #29
      Join Date
      Nov 2005
      Location
      Louisville, KY
      Posts
      54
      Quote Originally Posted by musclecarmatt View Post
      very cool...mite make me get into the SCCA part more if they do..
      Our local region (Kentucky, based in Louisville) created a run-what-you-brung class called Street Tire Open (STO). The only rules (beyond the standard safety stuff that applies to every class) is it must be a series produced vehicle and be running on street tires (treadwear 140+). EVERYTHING else is allowed.

      The only tradeoff is we PAX it the same as AM (1.0).

      It has been a fantastic success. It's often our largest class, bringing as many as a dozen cars to each event. It's competitive, too. The tire restriction really levels the playing field.

      Our STO class actually started as Street Touring Fully Unlimited (STFU). We actually ran two events with that class name before more adult heads prevailed, but the class was an attempt to get more participation and eliminate rules anxiety for newcomers, as well as give people a place to play with the cars they built for themselves instead of the rulebook.

      You may want to get a few of your PT friends together and head to a membership meeting for your local region and find out if they have something like it. If they don't, ask them if they'll create it for an event or two to try it out, and then get the word out. The local regions are not bound by the SCCA's National Classes, they're free to do whatever they want at their events.
      Andrew Scott
      '87 GN - 12.8 @ 108
      https://www.andrewdscott.com
      Instagram: @andrewdscott12
      Twitter: @Andrew1427

    10. #30
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      Jul 2012
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      San Diego
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      ESP is a STREET PREPARED Class E-Street Prepared
      Prepared countpart would be C-Prepared stripped down full tubeframe cars.then XP (SM is also unrestricted drive train.but and factory matching engine block..You probably already know this ..Many have read Street Prepared rules and Prepared rules and had them mixed and confused.Often happens when reading the rule book online...(: SM is where you can completely change your suspension but still must use factory mounting points.If anyone wants to read the rule book starting from page 81 to 113 helps a lot at explanning Street Touring,Street Prepared and Street Modified classes
      Quote Originally Posted by DTM Racing View Post
      Even though ESP is a "prepared" class, the biggest limitations are to drive line and suspension pick up points.
      -Drive line must retain factory long block and cam, and can be overbored no more than .043
      -No relocation of suspension pick up points, and bushings cannot be made of metal.

    11. #31
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      Jul 2012
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      San Diego
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      SCCA has the rule book online But a quick description of Street Preapared ESP would be..stock block and heads of your body style run and optional motor.You can change either your front upper or lower control arms but not both..(That would put you in SM)in the rear you can change just the upper control arms and relocate them on the rear axle 4-link to tri-link can happen. panhard bar or watts can be added plus adjustable shocks Sway bars can be added ,larger or removed.Intake and exhaust manifolds can be changed. Your choice of fuel injection or carb.no adding turbo or supercharger(that would put you in SM)

      Racing seats allowed but full interior .(Removing rear seat puts you in SM)

      STX class is similar but smog legal.. ESP is more favorable to Muscle cars Then SM where your allowed more mods but have to mix it up with smaller cars like in STX. So you have choices Lance..

      BTW Lance photos of you autocrossing your Monte Carlo..There is a lot of green grass looks like your are running on wide sidewalks.what place was that?

      Now read the rule book and don't take my word for it.





      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      Hmmm, that is interesting. Since Lincoln, NE is so close to here, a lot of our guys travel to the National events there and set their cars up to run in classes that they can compete in there. There are some of them that are trying the new road tire classes this year...talk about a PAXing nightmare to try to figure out. The PAX makes sense when handicapping stock cars, but above and beyond the stock classes it doesn't make much sense to me either.

      I'm not that familiar with ESP, how much suspension modification can be done to an ESP car.

      Basically it sounds like you can either use tires, or extensive suspension mods, or both to make your car handle better and be classed accordingly.

    12. #32
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
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      Peoria, AZ
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      Quote Originally Posted by soloracerSD View Post
      photos of you autocrossing your Monte Carlo..There is a lot of green grass looks like your are running on wide sidewalks.what place was that?
      It's a precision driving center at a local community college, main intent is to train police officers how to drive but they rent it out to our club and have other driving schools there and such. Here's an overhead shot of the facility.



      It's got it's plus's and minus's...but it's ours and we use it regularly (about 12 local events a year plus a Divisional meet).

      I think I'm stuck in SM for now. The STO class Andrew described above is interesting though. I'm going to talk it up a bit with our SAC and see what they think. Might be something to try for next season.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    13. #33
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Posts
      709
      I think what Lance said above is just the thing for most of us: Just do it for fun and to test your stuff in a relatively safe place. What happens when I show up at an autocross (most likely SCCA, but plan for AAS), which I intend to do more in the future, is this: I get put in CP as a result of a few wacky (or not-so-wacky) mods on my car. As many here know, CP is full of full-race cars that cost as much as a house; I will never compete with these people, even if they're only 10 seconds faster. That ten seconds is pretty far from my car and autocross skills; I really don't care, however, because it's fun to see these cars and drool over them between runs...

      Most people like to feel that they are competing, but not a lot of guys with high-dollar hotrods are dying to thrash their cars on the weekends; most people with supercars are the same way. With the challenges of increased administration and some necessary marketing to make it worth while, the changes might not be worth the effort at SCCA events, which are usually pretty diverse, car-wise, anyway. This is why it's good to have other organizations and events...

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by Turbo6inKY View Post
      it must be a series produced vehicle
      Andrew, can you clear up exactly what this means? I am putting together in my head a way to propose this idea to our SAC and I'd like to be sure I know what this means exactly beforehand.

      For instance, Tyler runs with us every now and then with his Scout II body sitting on what I believe is at least a partial S10 truck chassis, all heavily modified. Does that qualify as a "series produced vehicle"?

      I've already talked with our SAC chair and he is on board with the idea...just wants me to put it together and present it at the next regular meeting. Says we may even work it into a couple of events yet this year if we want.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    15. #35
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      Mar 2012
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      Escondido CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by rustomatic View Post
      I think what Lance said above is just the thing for most of us: Just do it for fun and to test your stuff in a relatively safe place. What happens when I show up at an autocross (most likely SCCA, but plan for AAS), which I intend to do more in the future, is this: I get put in CP as a result of a few wacky (or not-so-wacky) mods on my car. As many here know, CP is full of full-race cars that cost as much as a house; I will never compete with these people, even if they're only 10 seconds faster. That ten seconds is pretty far from my car and autocross skills; I really don't care, however, because it's fun to see these cars and drool over them between runs...

      Most people like to feel that they are competing, but not a lot of guys with high-dollar hotrods are dying to thrash their cars on the weekends; most people with supercars are the same way. With the challenges of increased administration and some necessary marketing to make it worth while, the changes might not be worth the effort at SCCA events, which are usually pretty diverse, car-wise, anyway. This is why it's good to have other organizations and events...
      I believe this is exactly why we need a PT class. Some PT guys get discouraged getting classed with full race cars. The rules you have for Indy seem pretty good, just dont think you need the same classes as Good Guys.

      1973 Corvette Factory Primer Car
      1969 Barracuda Convertible
      1967 Plymouth Valiant

    16. #36
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      San Diego
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      rustomatic. Have you tried SCCA Street Modified..Even though SM are rated as a faster class to CP.They still have interior with just a few frame supports additions being allow.So they aren't tubeframe race cars like CP.But then to be competitive in any class above street touring classes you need to spend a few thousand.. The Same if it was a Pro-Touring class. E-Street Prepared is a good class with allowed mods.but not a wallet buster.I race in C-Street Prepared.have for 20 years .Sometimes it's just a couple mod changes to get you in ESP.

      Quote Originally Posted by rustomatic View Post
      I think what Lance said above is just the thing for most of us: Just do it for fun and to test your stuff in a relatively safe place. What happens when I show up at an autocross (most likely SCCA, but plan for AAS), which I intend to do more in the future, is this: I get put in CP as a result of a few wacky (or not-so-wacky) mods on my car. As many here know, CP is full of full-race cars that cost as much as a house; I will never compete with these people, even if they're only 10 seconds faster. That ten seconds is pretty far from my car and autocross skills; I really don't care, however, because it's fun to see these cars and drool over them between runs...

      Most people like to feel that they are competing, but not a lot of guys with high-dollar hotrods are dying to thrash their cars on the weekends; most people with supercars are the same way. With the challenges of increased administration and some necessary marketing to make it worth while, the changes might not be worth the effort at SCCA events, which are usually pretty diverse, car-wise, anyway. This is why it's good to have other organizations and events...

    17. #37
      Join Date
      Aug 2007
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      Roanoke (FortWorth) Texas
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      786
      Im the same way. Just show up and take whatever class they want to put me in. Its not like Im after a title or prize money. I do however look over the results sheet afterwards to see how I compare to those cars that ours are meant to emulate. That would be the late model Muscle Cars. Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers... As long as it had a full interior and street tires, its fair game for me. Bottom line is that I dont need the SCCA or some other sanctioning body to tell me who my competition is. I already know. Same thing happens when I show up to good guys. You know a race car/truck when you see one.
      Chris

      Total Cost Involved - Ridetech - Fatman - Total Control Products - Gateway Performance - MaverickMan Carbon

    18. #38
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      Apr 2005
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      Colorado Springs
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      760
      Quote Originally Posted by rustomatic View Post
      and some necessary marketing to make it worth while,
      I think this is key. Hard core car guys know what SCCA is but I'd venture a guess to say a lot may think it is the exclusive playground of sports cars and not muscle cars. You want to bring new people into it, get the word out in front of the new people.
      TonyC@HP2

    19. #39
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      San Diego
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      Agree 100%you will have fun comparing laps times after each event.In time you will close the gap on some of the drivers.


      One of the first things a Vintage Muscle Autocrosser does is lower the Upper front A -arm .Shelby drop or Gulstran,(spelling?).that would put you in prepared class like CP..Knowing that I got a loose agreement with the San Diego region to allow vintage muscle cars to run SM with the drops.Even ESP now.It's a bummer to be put in a Prepared CP when the drop is the only reason on a vintage Muscle car..
      The SCCA does give allowances to some cars if they see a demand for them to be raced.

      I've talk with Doug Gill SCCA Solo2 Cometition manager,several times on Vintage Muscle cars and the Shelby drops.He told me a allowance for Upper Control arm drops for vintage muscle in SMmaybe ESP could be voted on if interest is shown.He takes phone calls.If you have a understanding of the rule book it helps.
      If you have any Questions



      BTW if you have a Mustang Shelby GT350 65-66 you are legal in F-Stock with the control arm drops.or have a clone of one.Perfect example of a Vintage Mucle car clone and run in a competitive SCCA autocross class. Search here" 67 Camaro SCCA Build",Jason Rodes he is a success full SCCA autocross car builder

      Quote Originally Posted by GrabberGT View Post
      Im the same way. Just show up and take whatever class they want to put me in. Its not like Im after a title or prize money. I do however look over the results sheet afterwards to see how I compare to those cars that ours are meant to emulate. That would be the late model Muscle Cars. Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, Vipers... As long as it had a full interior and street tires, its fair game for me. Bottom line is that I dont need the SCCA or some other sanctioning body to tell me who my competition is. I already know. Same thing happens when I show up to good guys. You know a race car/truck when you see one.

    20. #40
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      Sep 2011
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      We here in the Indy Region copied Goodguy's rules because they are nationally recognized. Our thinking behind it is that most people autocrossing their PT cars are already familiar with them, they don't have to make a single change to have a place to compete. The problem we encounter here with many potential participants (regardless of type of car) is that they read the rule book first and become tentative about joining in on the fun. While there are current classes that PT cars can be placed, they don't exactly fit and if they're reading the rules like so many, they pass on our events. So, give them rules they already know, make it easy, make it fun.

      As for what National is thinking, I haven't a clue. It's all talk right now.
      Dave Dusterberg
      http://www.facebook.com/camchallengeeast
      1979 Aspen R/T (under construction soon to be #19 CAM/T)
      2002 Ram 1500 SLT
      2005 Magnum R/T
      2005 Mustang GT #19 CAM/C

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