what take the vin #???

[formula350]

Ok so, I have a 78 firebird non Cali car, less smog restrictions than a cali car, but none the less restricted.

Now I also have a 70, but prefer the 78 style.
So what gives the car the vin?

The frame? the body? does it even matter?

If I turned both into one car, which vin would it take?

I want to keep the 70 vin, but the 78 body, go I get the style I'm looking for, but not have to worry about smog standards.
Those can be really limiting on what I can do with the entire drivetrain?
Does anyone know about this stuff?

[lfdsteve]

The vin belongs to the body. There are people that play all kinds of games and yes you can make extensive rust repairs to a shell and "skirt" the law but the law says the body and the vin are one. You can replace interiors, engines,suspensions,subframes ect. But the shell is the car. So if you take your 70 shell, and add all the 78 parts, sheet metal and such you use the 70 vin.
Hope this helps.

[LeighP]

Yep, the F-body contains a secondary VIN stamping on the firewall that must match the VIN plate on the dash, and should match the VIN sticker on the driver's door (but a lot of the time that decal is missing).

[Rick D]

Think of it like this, Unique Performance!! Now I know your not a big car building company, but when you break a federal Law it can have a very bad out come. Just sayin!! Especialy when you post questions about it on a public form.

[formula350]

Well you see that's why I'm asking because I don't want to break the law, so the answer is that I just use the 70 base and used the panels for the 78 and make it fit somehow, so legally its a 70.
It's just the difference between work.
Either one I go with will need a lot of metal work either way

Smog creates a lot of disadvantages for a car.
Their is a lot less you can do with mods on the engine and carb legal stuff is half the bang for twice the money

[SLO_Z28]

The vin belongs to the "frame". In the case of unibody cars what is considered the frame can vary. On your car the 'frame' is the firewall, upper bulkhead, and upper dash assembly. Think everything below the a-pillars that isnt bolted on, and everything forward of where the floor pan sheet metal ties in.

[Daren]

Well you see that's why I'm asking because I don't want to break the law, so the answer is that I just use the 70 base and used the panels for the 78 and make it fit somehow, so legally its a 70.
It's just the difference between work.
Either one I go with will need a lot of metal work either way

Smog creates a lot of disadvantages for a car.
Their is a lot less you can do with mods on the engine and carb legal stuff is half the bang for twice the money

Lets put all this VIN talk aside for a second.

You own both a 70 as well as a 78 and you like the looks of the 78 better?

Damn you Smokey and the Bandit movie! Your wretched legacy persists to this day.

Now that's out of my system, I think you'd be better off not hacking up a perfectly good 70 and 78 to make some sort of hybrid franken bird.

If the objective is to have a high horsepower polluting bird that looks like a 78, and this is only achievable by cloning a 78 from an earlier pre-smog car, then perhaps you could grab a 74-75 and slap on the 78 front sheet metal, rear bumper, door panels ect? To the best of my knowledge, the 75 is the same body as the 78. The VIN is essentially tied to the body on these vehicles. What years do the smog standards come into effect in the 70s? Is 75 a year that would work for you?

My two cents: I would like to see you stay away from those gorgeous 70-73 cars. Please don't Bandit-disco one of those.

EDIT: to be more clear, you would have to have a per-smog car, with that vin, that has been cloned into a 78. I do not believe you can legally do a VIN peel and stick of a 70 onto a 78. Even if there is a legal loop hole, you'll go to Pontiac Jail. Your best bet is to hope and pray a 75 car is smog exempt in your state and then go about cloning a 75 into a 78. Retail of a 70 Trans Am should buy you a nice 75.

[FirebirdSteve]

Frankenbird...

[formula350]

well not that I need to go into detail but I wouldn't cut up a good car, these is practically nothing left of it as is.
I posted looking for info and advice just the same with everything else on this forum.
It could have helped me with my build, plain and simple. I like the 78-79 years the best. Did you pick your car because someone else thought it was a better style than what you wanted? why even waste your time trying to bash someone's project anyway? Lol

[Daren]

well not that I need to go into detail but I wouldn't cut up a good car, these is practically nothing left of it as is.
I posted looking for info and advice just the same with everything else on this forum.
It could have helped me with my build, plain and simple. I like the 78-79 years the best. Did you pick your car because someone else thought it was a better style than what you wanted? why even waste your time trying to bash someone's project anyway? Lol

I apologize, I didn't mean to offend you. You know internet and tone and such. To answer your question, no you will not be able to apply a 70 VIN to a 78 car. A VIN from one 70 to another... maybe but it's not something people really like to see. I think you'd be best building your 78 or acquiring another 78 or 77 to build as a project car. Even as a parts car, a 70 firebird, especially Trans Am, should be able to pull enough money in resale to get you started on your 78.

This is a shot in the dark, but if 74 is smog exempt in your state then you may be able to clone a 74 into a 78. The rear window is of a different style and will be difficult to duplicate in a 75-81 style. You'll have to weight your options in acquiring a per smog car and cloning it into 78 vs building a 78 and making it pass smog as far as total cost involved. The 70 VIN onto a 78 car is not going to happen, legally.

Are you considering an LS build? I hear the Erod LS3 crate engine is California friendly.

[SLO_Z28]

I hear the Erod LS3 crate engine is California friendly.

^There ya go. Completely legal, strong, and relatively inexpensive.

[formula350]

It's already been mostly parted out, I would have liked to shoot for 500whp but I can't find a way to make that that will pass ca smog. Ive been looking into ls2 and ls3 engines. My goal for the car is to be able to drive it to an autocross and win, and lack of power will deffinity hinder that ability when I'm up against guys that put as much power as they want to the ground. Even with an e rod, so that's where the whole thought of it came from.
I sopose I could always just bolt on a s/c before events.
Don't want to colone anyhing, just want hp lol

[Jetfixr320]

From what I know, every state is different. And to be on the safe side, I would talk to your States DMV or local law enforcement.
Better safe then sorry when you put all the work into your project and it gets rejected by the DMV or a Smog station.

Steve

[Daren]

I...500whp but I can't find a way to make that that will pass ca smog. Ive been looking into ls2 and ls3 engines. My goal for the car is to be able to drive it to an autocross and win, and lack of power will deffinity hinder that ability when I'm up against guys that put as much power as they want to the ground..
Don't want to colone anyhing, just want hp lol

I've only autox'd a focus wagon for poo poo and laughs, so my experience is limited. I don't think power, so much as suspension, is what gets you around that autox course quickest. It is a precision driving motorsport. I dare say that 01 focus could beat up on a stock 78 T/A with it's over boosted steering box and leaf rear.

Why wouldn't a 450 horse Erod LS3 when paired to a 2nd Gen F-body with steering, braking and suspension built for autox work well? If HP was king on the autox course then 600+ hp drag cars would be dominating.

[vanzuuk1]

But what a cool license plate "frnknbrd"

[MonzaRacer]

OK so if you have the 70(I am assuming 70 1/2 second gen) and its basket case, then take firewall and dash(w/vin) if the lower apillar where doors hinge mount is same, bolt on 78 doors, make the rockers fit and match doors, door jambs to quarters generally have an inner reinforcement/pannel the 1/4s mount too and melding the rear panel should only be figuring out which trunk floor mats to them nad making fillers to go between.
I am seeing this in my mind after watching a guy with a 74 Monte make his car look like a 70 from his grandfathers wrecked and totaled 70. He had basically a body with a pretzel frame(ie junk) northwest termite infested quarters(he got used ones from down south to use) and he grafted on the a pillars/roof from the 70. Kept the frame, firewall etc from the 74. He had large job and I think part of his grafting was taking parts of 70 front frame rails and mating to front of 74 frame (not sure would need to ask him).
BUT guy got metal bender, and english wheel and its rolling around, looks like a 70, still big block 74 MC underneath.
His next incarnation is making his wifes 80s or 90s Mustang look old. I dont know why he has several Fox chassis to play with and many companies can make older Mustangs handle just as good or better. BUT his reason of doing the MC was the family wouldnt let him rebuild Grandfathers car as gramps had had heart attack in it and wrecked, ie hence bad frame. He was gonna rebuild it on different frame and simply restore the body from its rusted condition.
I have no issues if you do reuse appropriate parts to incarnate later car and document it so as to PROVE your case if ever challenged. IE photos/videos for building FROM 70 firewall/dash etc back and tacking on newer front end.
IF you have skill who cares.
As for emissions I would honestly look around for newer LSx powered vehicle, transplant ALL the attached emission parts (and documentingand proving you installed say a 03 C3500 6.0/trans to your vehicle, keeping all vapor canisters, etc inplace.
BECAUSE UNLIKE OLDER CARS EMISSION RIGHT NOW DONT AFFECT POWER PRODUCTION.
Dont believe me, I just fixed a Silverado with a blown (supercharged) Corvette engine swapped in. He got idea and then tried to rip out emissions parts. Connectors where same(car t o truck all GMs mostly use same connector for each system) but we had to use some of parts from the Vette he bought totaled as the car had some minor issues. We found the evap solenoid HAD t o be for that Vette minor issue but drove me nuts for about 2 hrs till I dug up info, had to do with leak detection software as he is using the ECM from Vette.
Now Ididnt build it, just figured out why the dang thing would set a code and after not passing so many system checks it downgrades power output too some degree. Now it runs fine. And honestly best pulling truck I ever drove. He wants to do it to a 4wd for hauling his boat, he has BIG boat.
Good luck in what ever you decide to do.

[Daren]

OK so if you have the 70(I am assuming 70 1/2 second gen) and its basket case, then take firewall and dash(w/vin) if the lower apillar where doors hinge mount is same, bolt on 78 doors, make the rockers fit and match doors, door jambs to quarters generally have an inner reinforcement/pannel the 1/4s mount too and melding the rear panel should only be figuring out which trunk floor mats to them nad making fillers to go between.

A 70 Trans Am is significantly more valuable than a 78. Applying a 70 VIN to a 78 car would be to plate lead with gold.

It's not too far off from taking the VIN off a 70 GTO Judge Ram Air VI convertible and placing it onto a 70 GTO convertible. There is couple hundred thousand dollar difference between the two vehicles. There is nothing wrong with making a 70 look like a 78, legally, although you're going to Pontiac jail, so long as the car still has the 70 car VIN. A 78 car with a 70 VIN tacked on is a big no no.

I'm all for frakenbirds and front clip swaps on vehicles. It's fun. I have an 80 car with a 77 face right now. I used to own a 79 Ranchero with a 79 T-bird front sheet metal. The cars are what they are and the VIN need to reflect that. Clone, hack and do what you want but those VINs need to be intact. The OP clearly wanted to do just a VIN swap.

[formula350]

That may or may not have been what crossed my mind, but like I asked to begin with, what takes the vin, and I don't want to go thourgh any legal stuff, or go hacking up any cars, I just didn't want to deal with the prius loving smog Nazis. so I just had a thought, that I could somehow avoid it.
I would say I changed my mind but never made a decision to begin with.

I know about all the requirements of an ls swap as far as smog goes
Engine can't be out of a truck, all the original smog related stuff has to be there in relatively the place, and the list goes on

Problem is, an ls3 cost 10k for an e rod and even a wrecked vette would be hard to get whole of at a price I could afford. I'm really looking at like 5 for a completed swap.

But thank you everyone for your imput and my question has been answered, I don't want to go to real jail or pontiac jail haha
Or lose my valued possession
This car has more sentimental value than money could ever buy
I'm sure their are plenty of guys who have a car that's like another limb to them.


But for the record... I would disco bandit the Hell out of a focus haha

And I think you gave me a name for my project haha frankenbird

[formula350]

Mind blown...

AB 2289 - New Smog Check Law

Set to begin January 01, 2013; Model year 2000 and newer vehicles will no longer require the tailpipe emissions test portion of the smog check process. AB 2289 will require late model vehicles be administered the smog check's visual and functional tests only.

The implementation of AB 2289 is expected to reduce the time and cost of the smog check. The program will now take better advantage of a vehicle's OBD II technology by eliminating tailpipe testing and instead using the vehicle's own OBD II emissions monitoring system.

This new smog test system is already in place in 22 other states. "This new and improved program will have the same result as taking 800,000 old cars off the road, also resulting in a more cost effective program for California motorists." said ARB Chairman, Mary D. Nichols.

Currently California's smog check procedure requires all vehicles undergo a tailpipe emissions inspection to measure harmful pollutant output from the tailpipe, a visual inspection for present and properly installed emissions components, a functional test to insure the proper operation of various emission components; and as part of the functional test, an OBD II computer diagnostic check.

Under AB 2289, the tailpipe emissions portion of the smog inspection will be eliminated for 2000 model and newer cars, trucks, vans, and SUVs.

Background on the OBD II system - All vehicles imported into the United States as of 1996 have had to be equipped with an On Board Diagnostics system referred to as OBD II. The OBD II diagnostic system is designed to monitor all aspects of your engine's emission conditions and report this information to a central database within it's computer. This information is processed and checked against the computers pre-determined values for various input levels and performance patterns.

If any problems are found, the computer will determine whether to alert the driver or not. If a decision has been made to alert the driver of an emissions problem, the "Check Engine" or "Engine Malfunction" light will illuminate on the vehicle's dashboard. In more serious emission conditions the computer may even begin to rapidly flash the "Check Engine/Malfunction" light indicating to the driver, that the vehicle needs immediate diagnosis/repair attention.

AB 2289 now requires the smog test inspection to rely on data from a vehicle's own on board emissions computer to determine the vehicle's harmful emissions production as opposed to using a smog machine to sample the vehicle's emissions output from the tailpipe. This design is expected to reduce the cost of equipment at the smog station, reduce the amount of time it takes to smog check a vehicle, and reduce the cost of the smog inspection to the consumer.

AB 2289 - Makes changes to the following smog inspection procedures and guidelines:

A. Authorize the use of On Board Diagnostic II testing to expedite the process.

B. Vehicles known to release large amounts of pollution must test at stations with the highest performance ratings.

C. Stricter fines structure for improper inspections.

D. Permit the state to contract with the private sector to manage franchise-like networks of independently owned Smog Check stations.

E. Encourage community colleges and other training institutions to develop technician-training programs.

[novaderrik]

put the newer parts on the older shell.. the only real major difference will be the wrap around rear window on the newer car and the filler when the tail lights bolt in.. a little cutting and welding takes care of those problems..