DSE Vs Hotchkis Vs GW front arms - Pro-Touring.com

1968Maro · #1 11-03-2009, 09:10 AM

First of all I know that a number of vendors and manufactures of both DSE and Hotchkis watch this site, but I need an honest opinion.

Like all projects my Camaro has gone a little over board and I have decided that the bolt on sway bar it just not going to do what I want it to for the handling of my car.

I purchased the Hotchkis basic suspension upgrade package, springs, sway bar, 3 inch drop leaf etc. I have now decided that I want to upgrade the control arms as well.

A few things up front

I would like to stick with the springs I bought and the stock spindle and just replace the arms. (trying to avoid going overboard on parts). Everything I have bought for this car that was "bolt on" has always required some modification, So I don’t trust ANYONE when they say, "oh yeah that will just bolt right in"

Also, I know that the only way to really slam that camaro is to put Airbags and 20,000 K worth of parts under their but that is not in the cards. Please don't tell me to put an air ride suspension under it unless you are also going to send me a check.

Question: Hotchkis control arms are more expensive than DSE’s, and everyone seems to love DSE, but everything I have read on the DSE website says that their parts are designed to work as a system. Arms go with springs, drop spindle, etc to work as one system. If I throw DSE arms on Hotchkis springs and a stock spindle am I going to be pulling my hair out trying to get it all to work together? Is it going to perform like it should?

Second Question: I would be willing to pay a little more for the Hotchkis control arms if they gave me what I want, but I have some reservations about the ride height. A 68 Camaro only really looks sharp when its tires are touching the wheel well and the Hotckis suspension seems to really hold that car up in the air.

Can I get this car to sit where I want it with Hotchkis? If so why are so many people having problems with their ride height and Hotchkis suspensions?

Will DSE get me anywhere closer to where I want to be, or is there even a difference?

What about handling and potential problems with marrying to manufacturers?

There are a couple of threads on this website that discuss the problem with the ride height of Hotchkis and their was a Chevy performance article a couple of years ago that showed a 1967 Convertible they did a whole Hotchkis rebuild on, article said it handled like a dream which I believe (Its Hotchkis) but it looked like it was sitting even HIGHER than stock and I really did not like how the stance ended up.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60630

If there is a Hotchkis distributor etc, that runs across this article I am not trying to flame your parts, if it something that was done wrong during the set up of the car please let us know!

Okay last thought before I go! Both sets of control arms are designed to improve the steering geometry as well as stiffness. From my understanding Hotchkis is designed to work with the stock spindle, (which saves me $500 bucks) and DSE is designed to work with their spindle.

Lots of questions here, and I realize I am no Pozzi when it comes to suspension knowledge, so straighten me out!

68Formula · #2 11-03-2009, 10:28 AM

I run DSE arms with the stock suspension (UCA mouting relocated). The DSE arms work very well, and are well-built. The Hotchkis look pretty much the same, except the offset shaft would allow more negative camber without requiring as many shims.

1968Maro · #3 11-03-2009, 11:28 AM

A couple more things I forgot to add.

I am running the Hotchkis 2" drop in the front, and I put the half sized body mounts in the front which should gain me some more drop as well.

Thanks!

cfwjr1974 · #4 11-03-2009, 11:58 AM

Call Mark at SC&C. Use the arms that he sells along with the ATS tall spindles. I have the GW ones on my 68 with the ATS spindles, and the only change I would make is to go with Mark's overall package. He knows his stuff, and you save some money. I did not want to use the DSE bolt on stuff because you basically have to make the Guldstrand mod to your stock subframe. The ATS spindles make the correction for you.

I would also use Tobin at Kore 3 for my brakes. His C5 and C6 stuff works with the spindles for alot less money than Baer or Wilwood. And yes, I have the 6-piston Wilwoods on my car. Just passing along what I have learned from the forums over a 2-year build. SpeedTech also make great arms that work with the ATS spindles.

CW

1968Maro · #5 11-03-2009, 01:13 PM

I am going to to show my ignorance, but I do not know the company you are refering to with SC&C

dhutton · #6 11-03-2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1968Maro

I am going to to show my ignorance, but I do not know the company you are refering to with SC&C

www.scandc.com

They are a sponsor here. Mark will talk your ear off.

Don

Lowend · #7 11-03-2009, 06:58 PM

... having trouble with the concept of paying more for Hotchkis than DSE...

1968Maro · #8 11-04-2009, 07:06 AM

http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?...mitForm=Search

Hotchkis upper control arms $739.95
Hothkis Lower control arms $900.95
Total = $1,640.90

http://www.detroitspeed.com/productp...sion6769cf.htm

DSE UCA's $650.00
DSE LCA's $590.00
Total = $1,240.00

I am not talking about a small differnece either!

Lowend · #9 11-04-2009, 07:20 AM

DSE is probably to finest built components out there for any American car... I think the decision goes without saying

meenaggie · #10 11-04-2009, 04:06 PM

If you don't want to go overboard just run new UCA's and upgrade your stock LCA's with Del-a-lum bushings. You need to run the Gulstrand mod or tall spindle or tall ball joint to get the desired geometry. That is the lowest cost option that will get you 95%+ of the performance improvement.

That's not what I am doing but I plan on going overboard.

meenaggie · #11 11-04-2009, 04:06 PM

P.S. Hotchkis oftens runs on-line sales for their stuff as much as 25% off.

cfwjr1974 · #12 11-04-2009, 05:29 PM

i am also a "go overboard" guy. truly "overboard" is a DSE subframe with all of the goodies. that's in my future on another car.

if you are retaining the stock subframe, the difference between bolt-on upper and lower ca's is minimal if you stay with the top 2-4 brands. the most important thing is to make the geometry correction. you have to either use the tall spindles or make the guldstrand mod to accomplish this.

i am not wild about the idea of making any mods to my stock subframe, so i am a tall spindle guy. this also eliminates DSE's bolt-on stuff. i would not over pay for the arms. get great arms, but absolutely get the tall spindles. if you like the guldstrand mod route, buy DSE's stuff.

cfwjr1974 · #13 11-04-2009, 05:38 PM

also, put coil-overs on the front to set the height. no air ride needed. just make sure you buy upper and lower ca's for coil overs.

i'm done. sorry to sound like i am taking over the thread.

CW

Hotchkis · #14 11-09-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1968Maro

First of all I know that a number of vendors and manufactures of both DSE and Hotchkis watch this site, but I need an honest opinion.

Like all projects my Camaro has gone a little over board and I have decided that the bolt on sway bar it just not going to do what I want it to for the handling of my car.

I purchased the Hotchkis basic suspension upgrade package, springs, sway bar, 3 inch drop leaf etc. I have now decided that I want to upgrade the control arms as well.

A few things up front

I would like to stick with the springs I bought and the stock spindle and just replace the arms. (trying to avoid going overboard on parts). Everything I have bought for this car that was "bolt on" has always required some modification, So I don’t trust ANYONE when they say, "oh yeah that will just bolt right in"

Also, I know that the only way to really slam that camaro is to put Airbags and 20,000 K worth of parts under their but that is not in the cards. Please don't tell me to put an air ride suspension under it unless you are also going to send me a check.

Question: Hotchkis control arms are more expensive than DSE’s, and everyone seems to love DSE, but everything I have read on the DSE website says that their parts are designed to work as a system. Arms go with springs, drop spindle, etc to work as one system. If I throw DSE arms on Hotchkis springs and a stock spindle am I going to be pulling my hair out trying to get it all to work together? Is it going to perform like it should?

Second Question: I would be willing to pay a little more for the Hotchkis control arms if they gave me what I want, but I have some reservations about the ride height. A 68 Camaro only really looks sharp when its tires are touching the wheel well and the Hotckis suspension seems to really hold that car up in the air.

Can I get this car to sit where I want it with Hotchkis? If so why are so many people having problems with their ride height and Hotchkis suspensions?

Will DSE get me anywhere closer to where I want to be, or is there even a difference?

What about handling and potential problems with marrying to manufacturers?

There are a couple of threads on this website that discuss the problem with the ride height of Hotchkis and their was a Chevy performance article a couple of years ago that showed a 1967 Convertible they did a whole Hotchkis rebuild on, article said it handled like a dream which I believe (Its Hotchkis) but it looked like it was sitting even HIGHER than stock and I really did not like how the stance ended up.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60630

If there is a Hotchkis distributor etc, that runs across this article I am not trying to flame your parts, if it something that was done wrong during the set up of the car please let us know!

Okay last thought before I go! Both sets of control arms are designed to improve the steering geometry as well as stiffness. From my understanding Hotchkis is designed to work with the stock spindle, (which saves me $500 bucks) and DSE is designed to work with their spindle.

Lots of questions here, and I realize I am no Pozzi when it comes to suspension knowledge, so straighten me out!

All projects seem to go overboard, don't they? Since you asked, our arms feature a tig welded, CNC machined spring cup with stackable shims, so you can actually fine tune ride height and get it pretty low.

Also when you compare our arms side-by-side with any other arms and see the machine work, TIG welding and strength built into each arm you can see the quality there. Our parts are designed to work best as a system - Hotchkis arms with Hotchkis springs and sways work best.

Finally, when it comes to price, due to economies of scale, we are now manufacturing more F-body upper and lower a-arms, and we have lowered the list prices substantially. These are exactly the same super high quality a-arms we have always produced, just with a lower price.

1st Gen F-Body

Part number Description List price-pr

#1107 Upper a-arm-complete $660.00

#1109 Lower a-arm complete $715.00

2st Gen F-Body

Part number Description List price

#1106 Upper a-arm-complete $715.00

#1108 Lower a-arm complete $825.00

Prices have been lowered for dealers as well, so call us or your local distributor.

All said, our parts are top quality, designed, tested and manufactured by one company as a system (unlike some of the cheaper setups) and they work really well - just this past weekend Mary Pozzi's 2nd gen was one of the fastest cars on the track and her car is leaf sprung with a crate motor battling some pretty high zoot stuff.

ProdigyCustoms · #15 11-09-2009, 05:10 PM

The price drop is very refreshing. A big thanks to Hotchkis, I mean come on, does anyone ever LOWER their prices? We are proud to sell your parts.

Hotchkis, DSE, Speedtech, all great arms, and we sell them all. Truth is they all do the same thing. So quality and price are your determing factor, and all 3 of these are great quality pieces we proudly represent and use. In fact, I am fairly certain we are the only dealer that repsresents and uses all these products.

I would use any of them on my personal car. Since you already have Hotchkis, kinda makes sense to keep it all Hotchkis.

Part number Description List price-pr

#1107 Upper a-arm-complete $660.00

#1109 Lower a-arm complete $715.00

And we can save you even more with our sale.

1968Maro · #16 11-10-2009, 07:03 AM

Thanks for the input guys,

Frank,

I will be calling you in a few days.