Will 4 inch tubing improve F1C efficiency? - Page 2 - Pro-Touring.com

wicked68 · #21 10-01-2008, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Procharmo

Just did some net research thought I'd share it with you.

This LS-1 Procharged owner thought his inter cooler was faulty causing boost drop from 18-19PSI to 12 PSI and high IAT of 130 degs.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901487

Below is the solution to his problem.

"we got bobs personal intercooler and put it on, took the car out and made around 17psi going sideways the whole time, so we were thinking it must have been the intercooler, for the hell of it we put the other one back on and we made the same boost??? (going sideways again). so we now know that its not the intercooler, and we are pretty sure that it was 2 of the pipes coming out of the intercooler that may have been pushed too far together into the silicone coupler at an angle to each other and restricting flow causing the high IATs and low boost. Im glad its not the intercooler as im sure Bob and Jon are too. Bob, thankyou for all your help with this and im sorry if I caused you any problems posting this up before we knew what was going on for sure."

If the pipes inside the silicone can have that effect then an extra inch of overall diameter will help.

I'd say package as wider diameter as you can whilst retaining you preferred level of stock functionality.(ie radiator, hood catches, inner fenders, etc).
Paul Ferucci's Malibu ( 8 sec small block F2 10.5 tyres) goes from 3.5" F2 outlet to what looks like 5 inch tubing as it leaves the engine bay. Possibly 6" as it makes the 45deg turn.!!!!!

thats a really small filter for that blower - have you looked into doing a split plenum 4 inch setup that will let you put 2 filters on it to get better airflow? have you run the ME numbers on the engine to determine the airflow in cfm you need? k&n tech support can help you do this.

Procharmo · #22 10-09-2008, 02:23 AM

Thanks Wicked68. I have been looking at that side of things as well. The photo above is Paul Ferrucci's Malibu SBC 1200 bhp F2 Procharged race and show winning car. He has since upgraded to an F3 Procharger on his SBC. I think he runs an open sccoop on the track and even if he suffers restiction on the road with the filter he can very rarely use all his horse power.
You are however correct. Heres a quote from Bob at Exoticperformance who has documented many real world tests on the net.

"Exotic Performance Plus07-14-2006, 05:19 AM

thats the guys kit i have

We see ProCharger belt slippage with the eight rib belt when we get into the 14 psi range. When we removed the stock inlet hat and went with the aluminum 4" elbow with a larger filter, the slippage was eliminated plus it picked up two psi of boost to 16 lbs. Bob

bmfcamaro
07-14-2006, 05:40 AM

why would that effect it?

Exotic Performance Plus
07-14-2006, 05:58 AM

why would that effect it?

The stock inlet hat and filter becomes a huge restriction that puts a big load on the blower. Once that restriction if eliminated the blower spins a lot easier. Bob"

The same restiction theory would apply to the piping as to the filter.
Theres a fine line between no filter (turbo bell mouth) with the hot air from header's vs cold air and the extra restiction the inlet piping causes even at 5" dia. I run a slighty larger stainless steel mesh filter which I find less restictive than the K+N oiled models.

Tom Vogel · #23 10-10-2008, 06:13 AM

Why dont you clock the supercharger outlet towards the fender (towards the drivers side of the car) so you can eliminate the 180 degree bend in the charge tube there. Thats what I am doing... ,Procharger (ATI) says that is perfectly acceptible. All I had to do on my BBC was to remove and fab in a small peice of aluminum on my valve cover, so as to allow the supercharger head to clear there. btw... Im running an F1R with an intercooler between the frame rails. I placed a scoop in the front bumper and ran it under the intercooler.

wicked68 · #24 10-10-2008, 04:32 PM

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46950

take a look at my setup we went to. with the single filter we were losing 150 hp.

now it breathes easy. its a 1000 bhp motor that will support 1300 on the F1R procharger . we enlarged the pully to cut down on heat and chop and went with the bigger blower not working so hard since we have trouble using what we have now and 1300 would have been overkill. but it runs very smooth and reliable and should have a long life.

another thing I just noticed in your pic is that it appears that the filter is located on top of the fans from the radiator so its sucking very hot air.

you might pipe it up and split it and run it out to both side fender wells. would be bada55 if you ask me.

I like the cog belt setup. did you guys make your own tensioner pulley?

Procharmo · #25 10-10-2008, 04:52 PM

That picture is Paul Ferrucci's race and show winning Chevy Malibu when it had an F2 on his SBC. He went 8's and won championships. I was referring to his 4" tubing.
Please see below where my 355CI F1C with 4" tubing fries 315/35/17 MT drag radials at 2500rpms in front of Lamborghini London whilst navigating a parked Aston Martin DB7 convertable and leaving rubber in South Kensington in Friday evening traffic!!!!!!!!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AAIUoxJv6SQ

Procharmo · #26 10-10-2008, 05:34 PM

Earlier that day I dragged my locked front tyres up Beckingham High Street for 100yds whilst frying my rears. At below 3000 rpm! That takes torque and it came from a 355 SBC. I think the extra air volume and reduced restiction didn't hurt low end tourque. Boost was 0lbs at all times.

Prior to this I had to scream the P600b with 3in tubing. I then fried my tyres at 2000 rpm with the P600b and 4" tubing let alone the F1C.

I have answered my own question. Thanks for all the support.
Cheers.

blown69nova · #27 10-10-2008, 07:51 PM

I just read this thread yesterday and it just so happens I have been having rpm issues with my 383/YSi setup. I have tried fuel, timing, even valve springs. Turns out it may have been my air filter all along! I use a K&N cone 4" id x 9"L. I decided to try a "filter minder" and according to it, the blower is pulling 25" of vac!
I tried it without a filter today, pulled hard to 6k but flattened out so I shut it down. Turns out it made 3psi more, but leaned out to 13+ afr's-good thing I shut it down!
Steve

wicked68 · #28 10-11-2008, 04:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blown69nova

I just read this thread yesterday and it just so happens I have been having rpm issues with my 383/YSi setup. I have tried fuel, timing, even valve springs. Turns out it may have been my air filter all along! I use a K&N cone 4" id x 9"L. I decided to try a "filter minder" and according to it, the blower is pulling 25" of vac!
I tried it without a filter today, pulled hard to 6k but flattened out so I shut it down. Turns out it made 3psi more, but leaned out to 13+ afr's-good thing I shut it down!
Steve

I think its overlooked on ::MOST ::: amature blower setups outisde the pros. 1300 hp requires about 2000 cfm to support it.

Plus putting too much filter on never hurt anything.......

blown69nova · #29 10-11-2008, 02:16 PM

You are absouletly right, and with a "homemade" setup, the blower manuf. is not much help.
Steve

notagn · #30 10-12-2008, 11:19 AM

any words on best air filter then with 4" inlet?

Procharmo · #31 10-13-2008, 11:33 AM

I feel that the stainless mesh filters are the least restrictive, easiest to clean and longest lasting for the street. You guys are correct if you could fit a pair of these under a cowl hood then that would be even better.
For racing I'd use a Turbo bell mouth with a mesh fine enough to stop grit from meeting 74K rpm impellor blades. The filter I'm currently using is 9" diameter at the base.
The guys over on Yellowbullet have plenty of real world experiments and experience with this subject.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...owl+air+intake

There's another thread in which Jake fabricates a 4" tube leading to an open ended box filling the entire cowl induction mouth. Its the best soultion I've seen yet but I can't find the threadright now.

Procharmo · #32 10-13-2008, 12:23 PM

Found it!!!!!!

You can contact http://jakesperformancefabrication.com

DeltaT · #33 10-13-2008, 10:52 PM

That would do it! Do you think there's a filter in there? Maybe just some mesh. Nice air path, pretty direct.

Hey, your 355 F1C sounds great!

Here's the K&N on the other end of my 4" inlet tubing. For scale, the adapter I made yokes down from 6" to 4" on the other side. The filter is 8"W and 12.5"T:

Passenger wheelwell.

Still need to build a rainbox for the filter.

Jim

Procharmo · #34 11-13-2008, 12:47 PM

Well thought out Jim and it definately looks like enough filter not to cause a restriction. Well done.

I'm still pondering on my intake set up. But no obvious issues with the 4inch on the blower outlet yet. I'm waiting for the Proseries carb hat to arrive. when I get dyno time I will be able to compare both the EV and EV Pro hats to see if necking down from 4" to 3.5" at the hat harms air/fuel distribution or boost.

Procharmo · #35 12-03-2008, 01:46 PM

I just switched from an EV 3.5" hat with a 1" spacer to the 4" EV Pro hat and I can feel more torque from 2000rpm upwards. Its harder to keep traction from a dead hook or from a 30 mph roll!!!!!
Dyno results will come after I have fixed my swaybar. It ripped itself out of the frame on the passenger side!!!!!!!

Procharmo · #36 10-19-2009, 06:51 AM

Just found the following from the supercharging Guru's over on YB.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...d.php?t=179464

Supercharged - NewEra Racecraft

Default F2 outlet tube diameter?
I see procharger says to run a 3.5 outlet tube yet I see alot of people run 4 inch outlets off F2s. Is there a benefit to running the 4 inch tubing over the 3.5 tubing. I think I know the answer but just want to get other peoples takes on this. Thanks!!!
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Default Re: F2 outlet tube diameter?
Our findings are the 4" makes more power, and ran better ET. This is on a X/S combo.
DonB.
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Unread Today, 12:02 AM #3

Default Re: F2 outlet tube diameter?
Thanks Blownbird!!! just wanted to make sure.
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Which conclusivley proves that pushing compressed air down a bigger pipe is easier than a smaller pipe!!!!!!

DeltaT · #37 10-30-2009, 10:35 AM

If your IC inlet & outlet are 4" and your hat inlet is 4", then other than packaging difficulties I can't think of any reason not to go to 4" right off the blower.

Corky Bell's book 'Supercharged!' has some cfm calculations by tubing diameter that may provide a more disciplined answer.

Looking good!

Jim

383hq · #38 12-27-2009, 01:11 PM

Interesting thread guys (even If I'm a year late on it,
Heres a good link for putting some theory behind your pipework designs, it takes a little bit of understanding and common sense (ie remember entry and exit losses, and understand your nominal pipe sizes/wall thicknesses)

http://www.freecalc.com/gasfram.htm

Between this and Dave Vizards work on exhausts, most of gas flow stuff is covered in and out !

I'm not scared to admit (not omit!) my mistake's, I, too swapped out intercoolers chasing a mysteriously disapearing 3.5 psi from the T trim.I'm Kicking myself I didn't think a little more before initaly acting (or in this case reacting). 4"or 5"pipe drops this down to .25psi and .15psi drop (in theory)

The other interesting thing, given I assume a 1/2psi pressure drop + entry losses at the filter, These aren't really negated with a postive dynamic pressure. ie. forced air into the filter at 2-3 psi still gives significant inlet losses at this pipe size. A combo of a increased dynamic pressure (ram air/naca duct) and 4"+ pipework would be ideal at this point. Looking at some of the Banks turbo kits, he goes noticably bigger within 1-2"of the turbo inlet where ever he can. (That's what set warning bells of in my mind)

My fabricator had my best intentions in mind - he thought he was doing me a favour wth the attached intake setup by taking the airfilter away from the extractors. it was just compromised in the packaging.
I came away from a dyno session with only half a plan, took measurements before and after intercoolers, etc etc......

Photo's attached but it's more functional then good form, when compared to the high class work I've viewed on this site.