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Takid455
12-11-2012, 08:00 PM
Who makes these nowadays. Spal had a fan pmw v3, painless had a 30140 dual fan one. None are available today. The neat point is they ramp up the amps and use variable speeds for the fans. Just see on/ off relay style like Dakota digital PAC 2700.

Any pmw units around ?

CarlC
12-11-2012, 08:42 PM
http://www.dccontrol.com/

I have one going in my car soon. Tell Brian I sent ya.

sjaroslo
12-11-2012, 10:36 PM
Gentleman definitely needs some marketing help with those products.... I've read everything twice and still have no idea what is what.... Maybe it's just me.

MrQuick
12-11-2012, 11:30 PM
LOL....you know, the I/O line along with the 50p35 the new 2sp2 controller utilizes an 80A, 120A peak relay

Bad Bowtie
12-12-2012, 01:56 AM
Another one here, bought one but haven't got that far in the project to use it yet
http://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AR%2D99

Ron Francis Wiring AR-99 Summit carries it so should be able to get it in a couple days
BB

Takid455
12-12-2012, 05:53 AM
I'll research them deeper but at first glance they dont have the features of the variable speed capabilities as the Spal unit did.

sjaroslo
12-12-2012, 09:23 AM
The document for the Dakota Digital PAC-2750 http://www.dakotadigital.com/pdf/pac-2750.pdf makes a reference to the "PAC-PWM-1 module for variable speed control of a fan (this takes the place of the fan low relay)" but then never mentions it again, and I can't find any other reference to that product anywhere through Google.... :dunno: I sent them a question through their website.

dontlifttoshift
12-12-2012, 10:26 AM
let us know what you find out Steve. I have used a bunch of the fan controllers but never noticed the pwm module mentioned.....that would be cool if that existed.

sjaroslo
12-12-2012, 02:42 PM
Got a very prompt response from Dakota Digital:

"The Pulse-Width Modulator will allow the cooling fans to run at varying speeds; that is, at a given percentage of capacity. The PAC-PWM-1 effectively turns single-speed fans into multi-speed units.

Unfortunately, the PWM for the PAC-2750 is not available yet. Looking at the current schedule, we’re looking at sometime this summer for a release."

So, still a ways away, but there is hope.

dontlifttoshift
12-12-2012, 04:01 PM
Awesome! Looking forward to that.

BonzoHansen
12-12-2012, 04:33 PM
http://www.dccontrol.com/

I have one going in my car soon. Tell Brian I sent ya.

I love my dcc controller. I hope his customer service has improved from the many stories I've read. It is a great product.

Takid455
12-13-2012, 08:31 AM
Does the DCC unit allow fans to run say 50% and increasingly vary based on temp?

BonzoHansen
12-13-2012, 08:58 AM
The DCC unit has a temp probe. You set it to run at say 185*. It varies fan speed to maintain 185*. It slowly ramps up, it does not jump to 50%. I've never seen my fans at full voltage, even idling for 20+ minutes in 100* heat. The AC on input turns the fans on 50% IIRC, but I don't have that hooked up right now.

parsonsj
12-13-2012, 11:23 AM
The DCC unit has a temp probe. You set it to run at say 185*. It varies fan speed to maintain 185*. It slowly ramps up, it does not jump to 50%. I've never seen my fans at full voltage, even idling for 20+ minutes in 100* heat. The AC on input turns the fans on 50% IIRC, but I don't have that hooked up right now.I used it on II Much, and mine behaved exactly like Scott describes. I also added the A/C hookup with a trinary switch and it all behaved flawlessly. Highly recommended.

dontlifttoshift
12-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Where does the temp probe go on the DCC controller? What's it look like, have a picture?

sjaroslo
12-13-2012, 02:29 PM
Looks like it is inserted into the radiator cooling fins; scroll down to bottom of page 1:

http://www.dccontrol.com/fk55.pdf

parsonsj
12-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Right. It's just pushed into the radiator fins.

CarlC
12-13-2012, 02:38 PM
It's a small thermistor that is placed into the radiator fins next to the radiator outlet. Basically, just shove it in between the fins. It's attached to a small wire that routes to the controller.

The current generation of DCC PWM fan controllers does not need an on/off feed wire. Instead, once the radiator has cooled via the fan to the minimum set point, the fan goes off. Hence, the fan may run for a short time after key-off to rid the radiator of heat. There is a method to use a key on/off as well.

The DCC parts are brutes. The standard part has a 55A continuous capacity. That's what's going in mine to run the Mark VIII fan.

sjaroslo
09-24-2013, 08:19 AM
Just followed up with Dakota Digital and they informed me that they have scrapped plans for the PAC-PWM-1 altogether, sorry to report.

cwylie
09-24-2013, 08:54 AM
Yeah I ordered a controler from DCC a few months ago and after 2 weeks of it never shipping I sent him an e-mail asking when it would ship and he didnt even respond he just refunded my money.

rickpaw
09-24-2013, 09:45 AM
Painless F5 controller has PWM control, and can control 2 fans. Kind of spendy @ almost $300 though

http://www.jegs.com/i/Painless-Performance-Products/764/30142/10002/-1

http://painlessperformance.shptron.com/p/f5-dual-fan-controller-with-metric-sensor

scott_fx
09-24-2013, 10:17 AM
wow these things get expensive! these could be built for half the price if you know how to do a little coding and are handy with a soldering iron.

sjaroslo
09-25-2013, 03:21 PM
How important does everyone feel it is to be able to turn the fans completely off above a certain highway speed? I see that now as the main difference between the Painless F5 and the DCC approach; the Painless can do it, the DCC does not. On the one hand, that used to drive me crazy with my previous car. Because of the way the electronics were set up, once the fan kicked on but the temperature reached an equilibrium, the fan would never turn off on the highway, so the ability to decode the VSS signal and turn everything off after 5 seconds above an adjustable speed sounds very appealing.

On the other hand, I am pretty sure that the DCC is a top quality product, it brings an endorsement from John Parsons (which carries a lot of weight in my mind), and I have a Vaporworx set up for the fuel pump that also will use DCC stuff, so there is precedent....

I think I also like the DCC approach of putting a probe in the radiator, rather than screwing in to the port on the head, but I'm not sure if I like it because I think that it is more technically accurate, or that it simply avoids having to come up with another "tee" fitting to be able to drive both the controller AND my water temp gauge; the port on the other head will use the factory sender to feed the ECU; not sure if the signal can be split electrically or whether one would need two senders (or three, total). I guess I have the same issue with the VSS--I need to feed the signal from the trans to the ECU, but there is a VSS output on the bulkhead connector, but I was going to use that to drive my speedometer.... Not sure that it can also be routed to the PWM controller...

*Sigh*

scott_fx
09-25-2013, 03:43 PM
i can't imagine there not being enough current for multiple taps off the sensor if it's a digital output. The current draw for microcontrollers are very low.
if it's analog signal (0-5v) then i can see this as being an issue.



How important does everyone feel it is to be able to turn the fans completely off above a certain highway speed? I see that now as the main difference between the Painless F5 and the DCC approach; the Painless can do it, the DCC does not. On the one hand, that used to drive me crazy with my previous car. Because of the way the electronics were set up, once the fan kicked on but the temperature reached an equilibrium, the fan would never turn off on the highway, so the ability to decode the VSS signal and turn everything off after 5 seconds above an adjustable speed sounds very appealing.

On the other hand, I am pretty sure that the DCC is a top quality product, it brings an endorsement from John Parsons (which carries a lot of weight in my mind), and I have a Vaporworx set up for the fuel pump that also will use DCC stuff, so there is precedent....

I think I also like the DCC approach of putting a probe in the radiator, rather than screwing in to the port on the head, but I'm not sure if I like it because I think that it is more technically accurate, or that it simply avoids having to come up with another "tee" fitting to be able to drive both the controller AND my water temp gauge; the port on the other head will use the factory sender to feed the ECU; not sure if the signal can be split electrically or whether one would need two senders (or three, total). I guess I have the same issue with the VSS--I need to feed the signal from the trans to the ECU, but there is a VSS output on the bulkhead connector, but I was going to use that to drive my speedometer.... Not sure that it can also be routed to the PWM controller...

*Sigh*

scott_fx
09-26-2013, 08:21 AM
asked around a bit and this is the response i got concerning multiple taps off of any signal wire:

That's called "fanout" and yes, it is a concern in digital circuits as well. Ideally you'd check the datasheet for the component, but that might not be an easy option with proprietary or obfuscated hardware.

If you at least know the impedance of the device you are attaching, you could make an educated guess. But the best solution (that i can think of) would be to use a jfet op-amp in voltage-follower configuration as a buffer.

sjaroslo
09-26-2013, 08:42 AM
asked around a bit and this is the response i got concerning multiple taps off of any signal wire:

Thanks for the info. Not that a lick of it makes any sense to me, but the effort is appreciated nonetheless :-)

scott_fx
09-26-2013, 08:44 AM
pretty much they are saying you need to 'amplify' the signal if you're going to tap off of it multiple times.

parsonsj
09-26-2013, 11:16 AM
Going back to the question about the fans running while the vehicle is cruising: I think it can be overcome by getting a thermostat that opens below the temperature that the fans kick in. If the radiator is correctly sized, the coolant temp should drop to the thermostat temperature, and the fans won't run.

That works fine for the coolant temperature bit, but the A/C makes it trickier. In that case the DCC controller will turn on the fans when it senses the A/C running, even if the vehicle is cruising. I don't know about the Painless part, but I'll bet it will do the same. IOW, most of these controllers just have a simple A/C override without taking vehicle speed into account.

Samckitt
09-26-2013, 12:52 PM
John Parsons, you use the factory GM setup or going aftermarket?

sjaroslo
09-26-2013, 01:52 PM
That works fine for the coolant temperature bit, but the A/C makes it trickier. In that case the DCC controller will turn on the fans when it senses the A/C running, even if the vehicle is cruising. I don't know about the Painless part, but I'll bet it will do the same. IOW, most of these controllers just have a simple A/C override without taking vehicle speed into account.

Actually, John, it looks like they covered this. From the F5 manual:

"Note:If vehicle has the A/C compressor running but is also traveling above the vehicle speed set point the F5 controller will not engage the cooling fan. This is because when a vehicle is traveling at highway speeds the air moving across the A/C condenser should be adequate for the heat transfer required by the condenser."

parsonsj
09-26-2013, 04:12 PM
Actually, John, it looks like they covered this...Cool! That's a big plus, and makes the Painless controller the better product.


John Parsons, you use the factory GM setup or going aftermarket?I'm going to use the GM E67. I've got the A/C refrigerant sensor and pigtail, and two C6 fan controllers. I'm working with Vintage Air on integrating the GM sensor into their trinary switch. More to come, but I think I've got all the bases covered.

andrewb70
09-26-2013, 05:34 PM
....

I'm going to use the GM E67. I've got the A/C refrigerant sensor and pigtail, and two C6 fan controllers. I'm working with Vintage Air on integrating the GM sensor into their trinary switch. More to come, but I think I've got all the bases covered.

Need more tech on this.

I have the E67, but it would be great if my dual Spal fans were turned on gently and in sequence. How do you integrate the C6 fan controllers with the E67 ECU? I don't have A/C, so I would think this makes it easier.

Andrew

parsonsj
09-26-2013, 06:56 PM
How do you integrate the C6 fan controllers with the E67 ECU? I don't have A/C, so I would think this makes it easier. It's pretty simple, really. Just add the PWM wire (J3-54, iirc) to the ECM, snag a C6 fan controller ($89 on Amazon), do some basic wiring, and have your E67 switched to PWM fan control (instead of discrete). Most tuners can do this. The guy who can set you up with a kit is Bill at BP Automotive.

sjaroslo
09-26-2013, 09:24 PM
How does one know if one is using an "E67" controller?

82906

parsonsj
09-27-2013, 04:47 AM
Steve, I'm pretty sure all the GMPP crate offerings use the E67.

GNon18s
09-28-2013, 06:41 PM
This reminds me, I ordered the Painless F5 controller six weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up. Hmm, guess I better call about that Monday.

sjaroslo
09-29-2013, 06:05 PM
This reminds me, I ordered the Painless F5 controller six weeks ago and it still hasn't shown up. Hmm, guess I better call about that Monday.

Not a good sign!