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View Full Version : Looking for front subframe suspension setup



avewhtboy
11-08-2012, 07:33 PM
I am looking for a front subframe, like DSE, Speedtech, Jakes Rodshop, that uses C6 bearing assy, brakes etc with a
hub-hub width of 49-52 inches wide and would like to be able to run power steering.

Anyone make one?

Thanks

srh3trinity
11-08-2012, 09:16 PM
Scott Mock (coolwelder62) sells one. C5/c6 control arms and uprights. Fox mustang rack. His price is very reasonable in my opinion. He is currently building mine and several others. Look at the "Cochise" build.

MuscleRodz
11-08-2012, 11:06 PM
DSE X-GEN weld in front clip section is 53.5". Close as you probably gonna get. What car is this for?

avewhtboy
11-09-2012, 09:47 AM
hey thanks for the responses, I am aware of Scotts, but doesn't appear that he makes one with small enough track width,
this is for a Vega.

wellis77
11-09-2012, 10:25 AM
Have you checked with Art Morrison? They have a Sport C6 using C6 spindle and hand-built control arms. I don't know what track-widths that is offered in but their weld-in cross member (non-C6) comes in 48". If you haven't asked them it may be worth a phone call.

avewhtboy
11-09-2012, 10:59 AM
I am aware of a lot of non C6 type, aka mustang 2 and derivatives what I am wondering is if the someone can make a dse, speedtech, JRS, etc
in that narrow a track width, and can it be done with power steering, I have been making calls to all the major manufacturers, but never hurts
to put it on a board like this, thus the question.

Ideally, looking at an appleton or sweet power rack, track width as i said around 48-52, 50 being the target, frame width about 28 inches,
trying to fit as big tire up front as possible, like 275,40/17, inside the fender or a small flare, 4 7/8" backspace wheel. 17x9, tire width approx
10 inches, tire height, 25 inches. Stock fender lip-lip is 65 inches, so thats what I have to work with.

Looking to use either late model S10 spindles with the seperated bearing, or turning down rotor to make hub for rotor hat, or use C6 style
spindle/bearing assembly.

Looking for a crossmember to accomplish this, that will correct caster/camber/antidive/bumpsteer/ etc etc.

thanks!

srh3trinity
11-09-2012, 11:31 AM
Unless you can find one that works off the shelf, I would call Scott Mock. He might be able to work with track width. Not sure about the rack though as his setup is for a standard Fox Mustang rack.

dontlifttoshift
11-09-2012, 11:51 AM
You will have a hard time getting that narrow with corvette control arms like Scott uses.

You mention frame width of 28".....is that outside to outside? If it is you will also have a hard time getting an engine in there.

Look at this, there are dimensions there and I believe this will take a 5" backspace on an 18" wheel.....slightly less on a 17. http://detroitspeed.com/productsall/032041-535-x-gen-frame.html

avewhtboy
11-09-2012, 04:12 PM
thats what I dont know, if dse can make one that would work, but not going to bother asking them since I am not willing to drop
that kind of cash, not that it's not worth it, but not in my budget, plus I am more of a do it yourself kind of person.

If Scott could make a crossmember for me that might be the best solution, thats the kind of info I am hoping to gather here.


I am hoping to start mocking up the frame in the next few weeks so I need to get one ordered.


Heres a link to a project journal I have going.

http://forums.h-body.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=37987

exwestracer
11-10-2012, 06:37 AM
I have to agree with Donny on this one. A few years ago we did a frame for an S10 that used C4 front suspension, and the control arm mounts literally wrapped around the small-block engine.
67413
67414
67415

There's a reason a lot of projects still use MII architecture...

avewhtboy
11-10-2012, 07:29 AM
Hey thanks for the pictures, agreed, vette arms, suspension setup is not what I am after. I am more interested in using
the hub assembly, spindle brakes calipers etc. or like I said in my other post, later model S10 spindles with divorced rotor
setup.

dontlifttoshift
11-10-2012, 08:51 AM
That tall of a spindle with relatively short control arms may give less than optimal suspension geometry.

avewhtboy
11-10-2012, 10:55 AM
That tall of a spindle with relatively short control arms may give less than optimal suspension geometry.

Which spindle, the corvette, the S10, the GMR, the dse, speedtech?

dontlifttoshift
11-10-2012, 11:52 AM
Sorry, Corvette.

avewhtboy
11-10-2012, 01:31 PM
Sorry, Corvette.

OK so the corvette spindle and arms probably out of the equation due to narrow track width and too tall
spindle with shorter arms, then, thanks!

So that would narrow it down to late model S10 spindle or F/B/G/S10 spindle with rotor cut down
to allow rotor hat or after market spindle, which their are many....

Rickey
11-10-2012, 09:04 PM
I am working on a '73 Vega and using the wield in sleeves to adapt S10 spindles (any year) to my factory control arms. Sounds like you have decided against this- Any big reason or have you tried it with bad results? H-Body forums sound like this creates better geometery and is a great setup.

avewhtboy
11-11-2012, 04:47 AM
I am working on a '73 Vega and using the wield in sleeves to adapt S10 spindles (any year) to my factory control arms. Sounds like you have decided against this- Any big reason or have you tried it with bad results? H-Body forums sound like this creates better geometery and is a great setup.


Hey Rickey, my name is Ricky lol,

From what I understand, the control arm pickup points from the factory are not designed for
"handling" which can only be corrected by either altering the stock mount locations or just scrapping
the whole thing and starting from scratch which is what I am doing so I can fit the tires I want.

On the H-body forum do a search for a project thread by Ishiftem, he has done quite a bit of research
on this, I would like to accomplish what he has, except using new frame rails....

Initially I had planned similar to you but I made a phone call to Marcus at SC&C and was informed of
the problems with just bolting on some control arms and a new spindle.

Samckitt
11-11-2012, 06:13 AM
I have to agree with Donny on this one. A few years ago we did a frame for an S10 that used C4 front suspension, and the control arm mounts literally wrapped around the small-block engine.
67413
67414
67415

There's a reason a lot of projects still use MII architecture...

What is the width (hub to hub) of the front of an S10?

exwestracer
11-11-2012, 10:07 AM
Scot,
We have a 2WD 1st gen S10 in the shop right now. I can let you know tomorrow if no one else has that info.

coolwelder62
11-11-2012, 12:30 PM
Since my name has been thrown out there.I guess I will chime in.Getting the 48"-50" hub face is going to be hard since the C-5/C-6 control arm's are quite long.About 54" hub face could be done using a Sweet rack & pinion.But that give you about a 28"Out to Out frame width.If I use 1.50"X4.0" rec tube you would have a 25" inside frame measurement.I would need to know more about the project in order to know if what I build could work.Scott Mock.

exwestracer
11-11-2012, 03:48 PM
Since my name has been thrown out there.I guess I will chime in.Getting the 48"-50" hub face is going to be hard since the C-5/C-6 control arm's are quite long.About 54" hub face could be done using a Sweet rack & pinion.But that give you about a 28"Out to Out frame width.If I use 1.50"X4.0" rec tube you would have a 25" inside frame measurement.I would need to know more about the project in order to know if what I build could work.Scott Mock.

Scott, I think he gave up on the Vette stuff up in post #11... I think.

avewhtboy
11-11-2012, 04:18 PM
Hey Scott, thanks for chiming in... I never thought the arms would work, unless I wanted to go with corvette wheels or something
with 6-7 inches of backspacing, I am not opposed to that if thats what it takes to work, that's what I am trying find out.



What measurements or specs are needed? In one of my posts I listed some specs, would be glad to provide more if needed?

coolwelder62
11-11-2012, 06:34 PM
Hey Scott, thanks for chiming in... I never thought the arms would work, unless I wanted to go with corvette wheels or something
with 6-7 inches of backspacing, I am not opposed to that if thats what it takes to work, that's what I am trying find out.



What measurements or specs are needed? In one of my posts I listed some specs, would be glad to provide more if needed?What I would need is OA/frame width wanted,Total OA Track width.That way I could see if I could put something togater to fit your need's.I am building a weld in clip for a 68 ford mustang right now.

HUSTLESTUFF
11-12-2012, 01:06 AM
You might look at cortex racing for spindles. Mike

dontlifttoshift
11-12-2012, 05:08 AM
If a whole DSE subframe is out of the question due to cost, then the cortex spindles are definitely not in play.

coolwelder62
11-12-2012, 05:27 AM
If a whole DSE subframe is out of the question due to cost, then the cortex spindles are definitely not in play.The DSE weld in 535X clip is a great buy.It's a proven unit and it's complete.

avewhtboy
11-12-2012, 09:18 AM
What I would need is OA/frame width wanted,Total OA Track width.That way I could see if I could put something togater to fit your need's.I am building a weld in clip for a 68 ford mustang right now.

Ok best I can tell, the hubwidth I would be going for is approx 52", I am unsure though, which is why I have this thread going.

If I use 4 7/8" backspaced wheels, 52 would be about right, maybe 51, if I were to use late model corvette/f body wheels with 6-7"
of backspacing I think the track width could be stretched wider, I am open to all of this, thats what I am trying to figure out.

exwestracer
11-12-2012, 10:24 AM
Start with the inner lip width across the front fenders. Subtract about an inch on each side for clearance. That's your max outside track width. Now you can work back from there with wheel width and offset to find the hub to hub width that will work. You must have SOMETHING nailed down to get an answer, otherwise you're trying to solve an equation with more than one variable...can't be done.

avewhtboy
11-12-2012, 12:25 PM
Start with the inner lip width across the front fenders. Subtract about an inch on each side for clearance. That's your max outside track width. Now you can work back from there with wheel width and offset to find the hub to hub width that will work. You must have SOMETHING nailed down to get an answer, otherwise you're trying to solve an equation with more than one variable...can't be done.


Hey ray, i posted these specs earlier, maybe you missed?

Ideally, looking at an appleton or sweet power rack, track width as i said around 48-52, 50 being the target, frame width about 28 inches,
trying to fit as big tire up front as possible, like 275,40/17, inside the fender or a small flare, 4 7/8" backspace wheel. 17x9, tire width approx
10 inches, tire height, 25 inches. Stock fender lip-lip is 65 inches, so thats what I have to work with.


The only difference I see is wheel backspacing, from 4 7/8'-7" depending on wheels I choose.

I haven't bought anything yet, the point of this thread is to figure out what will work together before I buy wheels, spindles, control arms, power steering
rack, etc that will not work together.

So I am pretty open to parameters nothing set in stone yet thats what I am trying to do.

For instance, I don't want to buy wheels to be told I have the wrong offset, thats the point of hashing this out here.


I see too many projects, where wheels didnt fit, tires dont fit, brakes dont fit, end up selling parts for a loss to buy other parts
to make it work, just trying to avoid some of this if possible,

For instance I learned, If I want power steering, for a mustang 2/ ididit/flaming river rack the track with has to be at least 54 inches,

I believe if I use something like appleton rack I can get my track width down to 52 inches maybe even 50, which is where it seems
I need to be. Frame rail width is open, really only limiting factor is tire frame rail interference at full compression and drop and the edge
of the fenders.

k7king
11-13-2012, 10:56 AM
http://woodyshotrodz.com/jegsvega/

coolwelder62
11-13-2012, 11:04 AM
Using C-6 componets you prob. wont be able get a 52" hub face.I would look into the AME frt unit.They offer it in a 48",50",52" widht's.

avewhtboy
11-13-2012, 12:36 PM
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1059.jpg

exwestracer
11-13-2012, 06:17 PM
Well, you gave a 3-4" range for hub to hub width, so I wasn't sure if you'd measured the available space. I get now that your question is trading hub (track) width for wheel offset. Personally, I'd go with wider hub track and more positive wheel offset (backspace). If you go with "build up" stock car type arms, you can build whatever split angle and length you need to make the steering work.

avewhtboy
11-13-2012, 06:58 PM
Well, you gave a 3-4" range for hub to hub width, so I wasn't sure if you'd measured the available space. I get now that your question is trading hub (track) width for wheel offset. Personally, I'd go with wider hub track and more positive wheel offset (backspace). If you go with "build up" stock car type arms, you can build whatever split angle and length you need to make the steering work.


Hey thanks for the reply, feel like we may be getting somewhere, because I don't know what you are talking about when you say I can build whatever split angle and length
I like, but I believe that is what I am looking for.

Lets say I use the above scenario for wheel tire combo, I use the S10 spindle with the divorced rotor setup, lets say I am using frame rail of 2x3 or 2x4, what I would like
to know is how long are listed in my drawing, U, U1, U2, L, L1, L2, to achieve lets say -1 degree static camber, 4 degrees caster, while achieving proper racing geometry?

I hope this is clear, this is all new to me, trying to push my knowledge further and eliminate mistakes if possible.

avewhtboy
11-13-2012, 07:39 PM
Jegs Vega frame



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/jegsvegachassis1.jpg

Custom vega frame, for drag car

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/LL8junkyarddogframe.jpg

S10 spindles, with some upgrades on a Vega

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/S10divorcedrotorspindleassemblyinstalled.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/S10divorcedrotorspindleassemblyfront.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/S10divorcedrotorspindleassembly.jpg

exwestracer
11-14-2012, 12:53 PM
Hey thanks for the reply, feel like we may be getting somewhere, because I don't know what you are talking about when you say I can build whatever split angle and length
I like, but I believe that is what I am looking for.

Lets say I use the above scenario for wheel tire combo, I use the S10 spindle with the divorced rotor setup, lets say I am using frame rail of 2x3 or 2x4, what I would like
to know is how long are listed in my drawing, U, U1, U2, L, L1, L2, to achieve lets say -1 degree static camber, 4 degrees caster, while achieving proper racing geometry?

I hope this is clear, this is all new to me, trying to push my knowledge further and eliminate mistakes if possible.

67510
(pmzracing.com photo)

THis is the type of arm I was referring to. There is no cross shaft, so the split angle can be wider or narrower to suit the space available. Also, the links are just turnbuckles (L and R thread), so they can be made in whatever length you need. There are similar setups available for the lower arm as well.

The camber curve should be determined by the width and sidewall height of the tire. For the size you quoted, something on the order of 1/2 - 3/4 deg camber gain per inch should be adequate. You still have 2 variables: relative arm lengths and upper arm angle. The lower arm should be level at ride height. The closer the upper and lower lengths are, the less camber change for a given upper arm angle. Shorter arms give quicker camber change and roll center change, BUT you have a major practicality issue with the frame width.

You'll need a balljoint-to-hub face measurement for your chosen spindle. Note that the frames you posted have the UCA mounts centered on the rail, and that is pretty much standard.

So, let's say you need that 28" outside rail measurement, and you stick with the wheel combo in the drawing. THESE NUMBERS ARE FOR REFERENCE ONLY. I haven't measured any of this stuff... 65 (body)-3 (1 1/2" clearance each side) gives 62 outside to outside of tires. 62-5 1/2" (bulge to hub face both sides) leaves us at 56 1/2" track width which is pretty close to what you had in the drawing. Subtract the 26" center width of the rails (UCA mount as mentioned above) and you have 30 1/2" (15 1/4" each side) from UCA mount to hub face. Here's where you need the hub face to upper balljoint dimension.
67511
Let's say it's 6" (a GUESS!). That leaves you 9 1/4" from balljoint to UCA mount, so that is the effective length of the UCA. U1 and U2 would be based on the length difference needed for split angle and caster. You can do the same thing for the lowers. The UCA should be 75-80% of the LCA length for that size tire.

Are we there yet?

avewhtboy
11-14-2012, 06:44 PM
We are getting close, thanks a lot ray, more to come!

avewhtboy
11-16-2012, 08:00 AM
Got some wheels and some 2x3 square tube, going to get spindle assembly tomorrow with any luck


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_0729.jpg

Z06killinSBF
11-16-2012, 09:16 AM
Don't forget, the '00ish Blazer spindles use a hub'd rotor assy and can get the adapter hubs for them to fit the Vette Brakes.

avewhtboy
11-16-2012, 10:23 AM
Don't forget, the '00ish Blazer spindles use a hub'd rotor assy and can get the adapter hubs for them to fit the Vette Brakes.

I havent forgot, thats one reason I was looking to go this way, I don't think I will need bigger brakes, but its an easy option for sure.

The other reason to use these spindles for the abs sensor, possibly adapt the S10 system to this car....

HectorM52
11-16-2012, 04:17 PM
Do you see any issues pulling the spindle so far into the wheel? Meaning I would think you would need longer control arms to offset the 2.25" of backspacing differnece between stock S10 wheels and stock Z06 wheels...

HectorM52
11-16-2012, 04:18 PM
PS, loving those wheels.

avewhtboy
11-16-2012, 06:28 PM
I got some front end parts today from 2000 S10 Blazer and did a little mocking up to take some measurments.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1067.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1070.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1082.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1076.jpg


I don't think either control are will work. Bottom seems to long top seems to short
and too wide.

Looks like the arms need to be 11-12 inches long.

exwestracer
11-17-2012, 05:34 AM
Actually... If you raise the top arm up some, it looks like the arc will put the pivot shaft over the rail. The lower arms won't mount right under the rail anyway. The front bolt will be in the crossmember. Those may work for you, just at first glance.

Z06killinSBF
11-17-2012, 06:05 AM
Is that a 4 wheel drive front? I think I see a torsion bar. That set up is way different than a 2wd front end.

nevermind: second glance it is an up close shot of the upper a arm cross shaft, disregard

avewhtboy
11-17-2012, 06:31 AM
Thats the problem can not really raise that arm very much before it hits the rim.

I set the frame rails up at 28 inches from outside rail to rail. and 5 inches off the ground in front, 7 inches
in the rear to give it a little rake.

I bolted the hubs to the wheels, then moved the front wheels so my track width is about 61 inches and this is
how things looked. I put the 2x4 in to keep the wheels from leaning in from the weight of the control arms, this
caused the lower control arms to slid under and inside the frame rails.

So then I measure from the upper and lower ball joint to the frame, perpindicular, about 11 inches, so with some
angle to the arms I would say they need to be about 12 inches long.

I was hoping the factory lower control arms would work, then I could buy some adjustable upper arms to correct
the problem with hitting the wheels and setting camber caster... They hit the wheels do to all the backspacing.

These are from a two wheel drive, 2000 S10 4 door blazer.

exwestracer
11-17-2012, 01:07 PM
Thats the problem can not really raise that arm very much before it hits the rim.

Those will have to go then, obviously. The tubular (racing) arms don't have the "hump" in them, so you should be ok there.

I set the frame rails up at 28 inches from outside rail to rail. and 5 inches off the ground in front, 7 inches
in the rear to give it a little rake.

You will need some "kick up' in the front frame horns to give the lower arms some clearance.

I bolted the hubs to the wheels, then moved the front wheels so my track width is about 61 inches and this is
how things looked. I put the 2x4 in to keep the wheels from leaning in from the weight of the control arms, this
caused the lower control arms to slid under and inside the frame rails.

That's not a problem. Look at how they mount on a stock chassis.

So then I measure from the upper and lower ball joint to the frame, perpindicular, about 11 inches, so with some
angle to the arms I would say they need to be about 12 inches long.

I was hoping the factory lower control arms would work, then I could buy some adjustable upper arms to correct
the problem with hitting the wheels and setting camber caster... They hit the wheels do to all the backspacing.

The LOWER arms hit the wheels? Looks like plenty of room in the photos...

These are from a two wheel drive, 2000 S10 4 door blazer.

The vette arms are narrower, but you should only have a problem when turned WAY to either side.

avewhtboy
11-17-2012, 02:17 PM
Hey Ray, thanks alot for the reply, I am sorry I was unclear, I was trying to say the lower arms are interfering
with the frame not the wheel, but yes, I understand now they would need to be connected to a crossmember
below the frame rails, so the lower control arms may work.

After doing some more spindle research, I am a little concerned about getting correct ackerman with these
spindles due to the lower ball joints being further out than the tie rod steering arm link, is this something
I need to be concerned about?

I am going to take some measurments for the spindles later to post.

avewhtboy
11-17-2012, 06:01 PM
some measurments

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1084.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1090.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1092.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1096.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1096.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1100.jpg

exwestracer
11-18-2012, 05:40 AM
As mentioned previously, you will need to "Z" the front part of the frame to get clearance for the LCA. How MUCH depends on how high the mount for the LCA needs to sit. Measure the distance from the ground to the center of the lower ball joint. Set the bolt hole for the LCA mount at the same height. This puts the LCA "level". That's where you want to start out. Then set the UCA mount to give you 1/2-3/4deg camber gain per inch.

Hopefully one of the computer modeling guys on here can help you out with the sim. Or you can draw it out full size on the floor.

avewhtboy
11-18-2012, 07:13 PM
some measurments and pictures.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1107.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1129.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1110.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1110.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1139.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1140.jpg

avewhtboy
11-19-2012, 10:17 AM
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1142.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1143.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1144.jpg

exwestracer
11-19-2012, 12:49 PM
With your engine placement, is it possible to just run 2 separate crossmembers for the lower mounts? I really don't think you want both sets of mounts hanging on outriggers like the drawing.

avewhtboy
11-19-2012, 03:03 PM
With your engine placement, is it possible to just run 2 separate crossmembers for the lower mounts? I really don't think you want both sets of mounts hanging on outriggers like the drawing.

Thats the issue I am was looking at last night, I was thinking two cross members like you suggested but that would take 14" which I would think
I will need for oil pan clearance.

So I was thinking of using a 2x5 or even 2x6 to sacrifice some space for the oil pan but make the outriggers shorter. Or looking for some
shorter upper and lower control arms.

If I use a 2x6 for the cross member the outriggers would only need to be a couple inches

exwestracer
11-19-2012, 05:53 PM
Hopefully this makes sense. Pardon the pre-school line work. Didn't feel like waiting for the "good" program to load...:)
67700

I'd use 1 5/8 X .134 round tube with threaded slugs welded in. The tube is plenty strong, and any fab shop should have some laying around. If you go with 2X6 for the crossmember, the sleeve will only be sticking out about 1 1/2" on each side.

avewhtboy
11-19-2012, 06:19 PM
Hopefully this makes sense. Pardon the pre-school line work. Didn't feel like waiting for the "good" program to load...:)
67700

I'd use 1 5/8 X .134 round tube with threaded slugs welded in. The tube is plenty strong, and any fab shop should have some laying around. If you go with 2X6 for the crossmember, the sleeve will only be sticking out about 1 1/2" on each side.


I like it, I think I may even be able to run the gusset from the other side freeing up that space.

RS_Customs
11-19-2012, 08:54 PM
Wow, I saw the start of this thread and it took off....or you did on grabbing parts lol.

It's late so I may have missed it in the above pictures....Rick do you have a measurements of the bolting face of the wheel to the frame? I can look at my files and see how it compares to my data on c5/c6 control arm spindle setup. There are some benefits to running them if you can fit them.

Robert

avewhtboy
11-20-2012, 05:21 AM
Wow, I saw the start of this thread and it took off....or you did on grabbing parts lol.

It's late so I may have missed it in the above pictures....Rick do you have a measurements of the bolting face of the wheel to the frame? I can look at my files and see how it compares to my data on c5/c6 control arm spindle setup. There are some benefits to running them if you can fit them.

Robert


Hey Robert thanks for popping in!

I got the parts together just so I could take those kind of measurements. I have not taken that one yet, but would say its
approximately 18 inches from the hub to outside of frame rail. Originally I was going to set up the frame rails at 28 inches, but
have moved that to 27, on paper. Physically I will have to move the rails and take a tire off so I can take that measurement.

For now I would say use 18 inches until I get a more exact number.

avewhtboy
11-20-2012, 05:22 AM
Another quick sketch based on Rays input.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1149.jpg

avewhtboy
11-21-2012, 12:16 PM
OK I took the wheel off and made some more measurements and drawings, I wish I had autocad,

I was a heavy user about 15 years ago....

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1164.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1162.jpg


One thing I did check was hub to frame and it seems more like 14 inches than my guess of 18 inches
yesterday.

avewhtboy
11-21-2012, 01:25 PM
OK some conclusions.

It appears for my current setup to work I would need to shorten the steering arms, replace upper control arms and modify the lowers.

Alternatively I can get wheels with 4 7/8" offset, then use 2.5" shorter upper and lower control arms then I believe the spindles would work.

This would decrease hub-hub width to 50" which eliminates most power steering racks. I think the woodward rack will work with 50".

I guess thats what I need to determine next, I am trying to keep power steering, that is part of the reason for this exercise.

Thanks for all the help so far!

exwestracer
11-21-2012, 05:15 PM
Keep in mind that if you go with a lower offset wheel, the tire will "swing" further toward the fender as you steer. Make sure you have adequate outside clearance if you go that route.

RS_Customs
11-21-2012, 06:38 PM
I was trying to find one of my notebooks I have of suspension measurements and drawings and it seems to be boxed up somewhere. I will try to sort through some of my cad files to pull the measurements, but you may be able to find some of the information you need in the links below if your interested in the c5/c6 suspension parts at all.

Looks like the upper arm is 8.55 and the lower is 15.96

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?13842-C5-suspension-measurements

http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8387

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/gt40-tech-chassis-brakes-tires-wheels/27159-c5-corvette-ball-joint-taper.html

Robert

avewhtboy
11-22-2012, 08:15 AM
Hey man thanks for the links, just went through those.

I had found those dimensions for the C-5 arms, looks like that gives about 140%
difference for the set.

On the S10 control arms its closer to 125%.

I came across this last night, was a very interesting blog I read the whole thing
last night finished it about 3am

http://www.rhoadescamaro.com/build/?m=201211

RS_Customs
11-22-2012, 03:31 PM
Rick, are you able to make arms? you could always use the vette knuckle and make both or one of the arms. There are also a few companies that might be able to make you custom length arms.

If you do go the blazer spindle route, and need to get lower, I have a new pair of 2" drop spindles with new sealed hubs and corvette brakes bracket I bought several years back.

Robert

avewhtboy
11-22-2012, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=RS_Customs;951658]Rick, are you able to make arms? you could always use the vette knuckle and make both or one of the arms. There are also a few companies that might be able to make you custom length arms.

Hey robert, ideally I would like to get all these dimensions put in a suspension analyzer program by someone who is familiar with it to discuss what it says and
go from there. I don't have a source for someone to make arms but have not researched that route yet, what about you?

At this point no decision on any parts, need to find correct dimensions then see what I need to put it together, where that tie rod end needs to be etc etc,


I am not sure what specifications are still needed to plot this all out

I think after reading the rhoades build I want 5-10 degrees of caster and camber and
I believe the control arm ratio should be closer to 150 than 125 which would give me
control arm lengths like 14 inches on the bottom and 7-8 inches for the upper.

The vette lower arms are almost 16 inches with an upper around 8.5, I don't
believe I have room for 16 inch lower control arms and have room for exhaust
and steering.

avewhtboy
11-24-2012, 02:01 PM
OK so I downloaded the demo and put some points in....



http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/suspensionanalyzerprintscreenvegaframeb.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/suspensionanalyzerprintscreenvegaframec.png

avewhtboy
11-24-2012, 06:24 PM
In this plot I basically narrowed the 2001 Corvette specs 7 inches. In doing this I lost 3.5 inches
off of each lower control arm thus changing the effective rates. Did not seem to have a huge
difference.

LINES EDITED WERE:

Upper ball joint
Upper frame pivot front
Upper frame pivot rear
Lower ball joint
Lower frame pivot front
Lower frame pivot rear
Tie rod on Rack
Tie rod on Spindle
Track width
Tread width (for larger tire)
Camber




http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/2001vettestatsnarrowed7inchesforvegaframe.jpg

2001 Corvette specs

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/2001CorvetteSpecsPerformancesuspensionanalyser.jpg

j-rho
11-24-2012, 10:19 PM
Saw this thread as a link referrer...

If you're going this clean sheet man, why not put the engine behind you? Mate it up with a G50 or Sierra transaxle depending on power levels. Then you'll have all the room to do anything you want with the front suspension, manage cooling better, and best of all - you'll have a much lower polar moment and a much higher static rear weight distribution, than any of these crappy old musclecars people are building. All these builds with a bajillion HP going through crappy 200TW tires, ugg - at least with ~60% static on the rear 345 tires, you'll have a chance of putting some of it down.

Also, I wouldn't use those parts - the circle track catalogs have lots of stuff to choose from that isn't as expensive, and will offer a lot of adjustability to help with tuning down the road.

avewhtboy
11-25-2012, 06:10 AM
Hey thanks for the reply. I suspect most of this was sarcasm, since this is a vega after all, not another high dollar
first/second gen camaro build. Regardless I respect what you are saying after reading your blog and the CVD series.

This is all Marcus at SC&C's fault.(totaling j/k) My plan was to just bolt on some control arms and fit some larger tires, but then
after speaking with him about the pitfalls of the stock front suspension, well here we are.

Any advice you have to offer here would be greatly appreciated, outside of moving the motor to the back of the car.

avewhtboy
11-30-2012, 08:58 AM
I have to agree with Donny on this one. A few years ago we did a frame for an S10 that used C4 front suspension, and the control arm mounts literally wrapped around the small-block engine.
67413
67414
67415

There's a reason a lot of projects still use MII architecture...

Hey Ray, I was looking at this picture again, what I notice is it looks that that truck has wheels with
4.5 inch backspacing. Is that correct?

If I set this up with the Vette Wheels with backspacing of 7.38 inches that will gain me 5.75 inches
to move the control arms out, about 2.75 inches further out on either side from what is in these
pictures right?

Do you recall what the outside frame width was on the S10 chassis?

Thanks.

A pic to show I am getting it read for new frame rails...

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1172.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1179.jpg

exwestracer
11-30-2012, 10:20 AM
Sorry, I don't remember ANY details about that truck, other than it was a real PITA to package everything.

Looking at the first picture, the frame support fixtures are almost exactly 1/2 way out on the frame bench crossmember. I measured one and they are 49 1/2" wide, so that would put the frame rails somewhere ABOUT 24-25" on center. Hope that helps.

avewhtboy
12-02-2012, 03:50 PM
Picked up my C5 suspension pieces and did a little more measuring, cutting, welding and this is where I got...

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1191.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1195.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1193.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1197.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1197.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1197.jpg

HectorM52
12-02-2012, 07:58 PM
I'm sure this is a silly question, but you do plan on tying the front of the sub back up to the top of the firewall, right?

HectorM52
12-02-2012, 08:46 PM
Okay, here is what seems to be a logical next step. I think you should make a drawing from the SIDE of the car plotting the points you know about where the UCA's and LCA's should mount. At least in the "X" and "Y" direction. Don't even worry about the "Z" direction for my example. Doing so you will be able to locate the height (top and bottom elevation) of your frame rail. Obviously you don't want to have your framerail too high and not be able to get your UCA mount low enough to locate it correctly.

avewhtboy
12-03-2012, 07:52 AM
The steering rack should be here this week, also ordered some threaded tube ends for the lower control arm mounts, I need to get the upper
control arm brackets made so I can get those mocked in. The place I have been getting steel from has a laser cutter if I can send them a dxf
or dwg file they can cut them out for me.

The pictured with the control arms clamped to the frame is roughly at ride height, 6 inches from rails to ground, top of kicked up rail 15.5 inches
if I remember correct. Concern now is if there is really room for the motor between those rails....

exwestracer
12-03-2012, 11:45 AM
In FRONT view, is the LCA mounting bolt level with the lower ball joint center? A straight on front picture of your mockup would help to see the relative angles.

avewhtboy
12-03-2012, 12:00 PM
In FRONT view, is the LCA mounting bolt level with the lower ball joint center? A straight on front picture of your mockup would help to see the relative angles.

More or less, according to performance analyzer the LCA front and rear pivots are not level and the ball joint is 6.375 inches from ground. That is a 2x6 channel those threaded rods
are sitting on. so roughly 6.25 ish i would say, I am just mocking things up to see if it will work or not, taking measurements etc. I will lower the frame back down
and do take some pics with measurements...


In looking at the A arm geometry from the factory there is 12.625 inches between front upper and lower pivots and 10.625 inches between the rear upper and lower pivots
Also, the lower arm is pitch up from front to back and the upper is pitched down from front to back.

Factory spec is nine degrees of caster, I would like to lower that to 6 degrees so I was thinking of raising the rear upper pivot about .46 inches, to decrease
the caster, is there an adverse condition I will be inducing by doing this? Do I need to move something else in addition?

I used to do front end alignments, part time job at Sears when I was in school, so I know a little about front end geometry but this is getting deeper....

exwestracer
12-03-2012, 04:20 PM
Raising the pivot won't change the static caster. It will change the amount of front brake anti-dive and caster GAIN. Shifting the UCA mounts forward in the chassis will reduce the static caster.

avewhtboy
12-03-2012, 06:04 PM
ok, so armed with a little info looks like if i move the upper control arm mounts forward .375 inches it should lower the caster to approximately 6 degrees.

I was thinking, when we did alignments of course we could not move the pick up points forward or backward or up or down, to add subtract caster you
had to stagger the upper shims if I remember right.

I think its coming together, I should have a rack in this week so thats the next and probably biggest part of this puzzle to come.

Thanks for all the help. I am trying to push my knowledge this is the biggest project I have taken on.

Rick

drflex
12-04-2012, 07:38 AM
What I would need is OA/frame width wanted,Total OA Track width.That way I could see if I could put something togater to fit your need's.I am building a weld in clip for a 68 ford mustang right now.

i'd like to see that mustang clip..and what would be the cost.

exwestracer
12-04-2012, 08:14 AM
ok, so armed with a little info looks like if i move the upper control arm mounts forward .375 inches it should lower the caster to approximately 6 degrees.

I was thinking, when we did alignments of course we could not move the pick up points forward or backward or up or down, to add subtract caster you
had to stagger the upper shims if I remember right.

I think its coming together, I should have a rack in this week so thats the next and probably biggest part of this puzzle to come.

Thanks for all the help. I am trying to push my knowledge this is the biggest project I have taken on.

Rick

If your floor is level, or you have a "smart level", you can use this simple fixture to "pre-set" the caster on the spindle. This one is for that same truck I posted pics of earlier.
68329

avewhtboy
12-04-2012, 09:35 AM
thanks Ray I will be looking to set something like that up once I get all the pieces to the puzzle.

avewhtboy
12-04-2012, 11:02 AM
Got the steering rack I won off of ebay, a little rough around the edges, but really needed something just to stick in place for measuring.

I hope this works, I think the make one narrower by about a half inch if I need to.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1206.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1207.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1208.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1212.jpg

avewhtboy
12-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Got some upper control arm brackets cut

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1230.jpg

HectorM52
12-06-2012, 07:08 PM
Good progress.

Did you cut into the firewall? Any progress on the framerails or crossmembers?

avewhtboy
12-18-2012, 08:24 AM
So moving along slowly with this little project. The brackets I had made were just massive, so decided to have a second set
made, thanks Scott!.

I cut the firewall out more and fabbed up the subframe connectors that will meet up with the new frame rails.
Also I got some tubing to make the front lower control arm mounts.

Then I got scared that I was going to get all this welded up and have no room for a motor so I bought one, I think
there is going to be plenty of room.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1242.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1253.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1254.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1260.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1264_zps216cb6e7.jpg

I need to find some way to connect the Coleman rack end to the corvette spindle. What I am wondering is the taper
on the corvette tie rod end the same as other GM spindles? The corvette tie rod end has 14mm thread where I believe
I believe I need 5/8 since sleeves etc are more readily available.

Samckitt
12-18-2012, 09:04 AM
New brackets in the mail:

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/PC170746_zps5280dc66.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/PC170747_zps082a48e5.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/PC170748_zps54bdf938.jpg

exwestracer
12-18-2012, 09:47 AM
You can solve your tie rod attachment problem with a bump steer kit. It's a stud that has a tie rod taper on one end, and a straight shank for a heim on the other. I don't know if they are made specifically for Corvettes, but I'd bet the steering arm taper is common GM...

Then use heims at the rack and the steering arm with adjustable sleeves.

avewhtboy
12-18-2012, 10:26 AM
Thanks Scot and Ray, I think I may go to the local auto parts store and try to do some comparison shopping, Maybe I will buy a few different style
rod end and see which one fits best.

Once I figure out which rod end to use then I can get the rest sorted out. I would rather do that then the bumpsteer kit, but I may find that I need
that kit anyway!

exwestracer
12-19-2012, 05:17 AM
I would rather do that then the bumpsteer kit, but I may find that I need
that kit anyway!

I was kind of thinking that as well...

drflex
12-19-2012, 10:38 AM
New brackets in the mail

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff65/samckitt/PC170747_zps082a48e5.jpg

maybe i missed it..but where can i get some of these?

avewhtboy
12-19-2012, 06:11 PM
I got them from a member here, the guy that posted the pictures as a matter of fact.

May want to send him a private message. Great guy, saved me a lot of time trying to make these.

avewhtboy
12-22-2012, 07:42 AM
Got the upper control arm brackets in and mocked up. They look much better fit pretty good.

The rear relief for the rear control arm bushing is too close on one side, will probably need
to open that a little but other than that seems to fit really nice.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1283_zpsd7aca356.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1292_zpsd9900777.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1291_zps24e0933c.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1284_zpsf0a6f7b3.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1286_zpsee517869.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1287_zps4e01c2e1.jpg

MonzaRacer
12-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Well many people say a Vega has a bad suspension, yet several have made them handle. As for bad design, not really. I know of three Vega/Monza cars with simple redesigned arms and different spindles and after some minor mods the cars handled pretty good. I got to see IMSA race car once, all the front end was welded up good as the cars lacked enough pinch welds and limited pinchweld gap clearance attention. WHY these cars were meant as cheap economy cars, at the time attention to close gaps and fitment were not considered critical.
Jeff at Schwartz Performance proved they could be made to handle and run good and didnt even take huge wheels or large amounts of power, his was powered by a aluminum 5.3 from Buick version of Trailblazer.
As for fitting huge wheels, well yeah then you need to cut a car up, and drop it on another frame.
Lots of work.
Me, I am working with what my car has. If I need to make slight tweaks to the control arms, ok. But to cut a car up well you have to be ready to destroy something.
You seem to forget that many people think MustangII frontends are lousy YET so many people have adapted them to fit and actually work.
I see a lot of work, and dont get me wrong, I understand why, I just see a lot of work designing a frame.
Why not simply buy one of the race car frames like Alston (I heard guy in Ill bought them and is still in business.) S&W and others. buy one of those, add in a suspension that fits and works and drop the body OVER it?
Then you could have a perfect platform to add in ANY front or rear design you wanted.
I have several plots of a H body front end from an alignment machine, just got them from friend who wanted to know if his car was bent. He made adjusting lock places for lower arm adjusters. He set lower arms in and out and front out and back in and so forth.
Marcus says that the design is bad, yet so far I havent seen anything horrible. It was just built for utilitarian use, NOT turning a corner.
After some minor fixes the Fbody subs do pretty good, most of the companies have redesigned bolt on parts, maybe drilled some new holes but the actual mounting point wasnt changed, just the height of the pivot point.
As for me I am working on ways to make what I have on my Monza work better. If it takes making new arms, guess I might. But one guy started making lower arms, may look into what "fixes " they make or if I can modify those. But Marcus said he could make me upper control arms so after new year I am gonna send him some H body uppers, well at least one, to make me SPC adjustables. I figure if done right I could use either H body upper joints OR S10 also so if I need takk uppers G body stuff will work for me.
My next fix is proper fixes for the steering as I will have Lee go through my box next year too.
But good luck with your project, hope it comes out like you want.

avewhtboy
12-24-2012, 06:20 AM
Hey Lee, thanks for your thoughts, I have read a lot of your posts here and there so I realize you have put a lot of time and
effort into all things h-body and pro touring.

This project has been in my mind for at least 5 years so I am enjoying finally getting along with it. For me, after weighing the
pros and cons of the stock front suspension and how far you can take it verses a custom front clip I decided to front clip it.
I did this after reading many threads on hbody forum regarding the front suspension and speaking with Marcus.

Once I decided to front clip it I contacted several manufacturers regarding what they have available or could build and came close
to buying the mustang two clip, but there was just enough negative reasons (for me) to not use that set up.

So next, If say I want to spend $5-7k, I need to provide a list of all the specs so they can build it. By the time I came up with
the specs I decided I can build it myself and save $4-6K. Now it will not be as pretty and I am sure to encounter some problems
along the way, but I am as much about learning new things and pushing myself to do more than about just bolting things on because
people say this is the way to go.

As far as those fast Vegas out there road racing. I think that says more about the ability of the drivers wheeling those things
than the cars themselves. I however am no hot shoe driver so I hope to create a better platform to hone my driving skills on
with the added opportunity to keep improving on the platform the car is built upon.

avewhtboy
01-04-2013, 08:13 PM
Odd, just noticed in upper right hand corner this thread is listed under "items for sale" ???

I have been piddling in the garage over the holidays got a little further with this.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1343_zps85f21e6e.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1353_zps2d157a0e.jpg

HectorM52
01-05-2013, 03:11 PM
Your crossmember "kick-downs" should have been notched so they hit both the sides and bottoms of the framerails. That's the connection point that's going to handle the "loads" of the suspension and transfer them to the frame. Just a thought.

avewhtboy
01-06-2013, 09:39 AM
Your crossmember "kick-downs" should have been notched so they hit both the sides and bottoms of the framerails. That's the connection point that's going to handle the "loads" of the suspension and transfer them to the frame. Just a thought.

Not sure what you are talking about, they do touch everywhere and that crossmember is 2x6 rather than 2x4 that most people use so it should
be plenty strong.

avewhtboy
01-06-2013, 09:40 AM
Moving to the rear of the car for some modifications. I had a couple friends stop by that wanted to get in on the action...so we cut the rear
inner fenders for mini tub.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1354_zps6bdf90b5.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1357_zps99263ab5.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1358_zps94c3cfea.jpg

Twentyover
01-06-2013, 01:27 PM
Your crossmember "kick-downs" should have been notched so they hit both the sides and bottoms of the framerails. That's the connection point that's going to handle the "loads" of the suspension and transfer them to the frame. Just a thought.


Not sure what you are talking about, they do touch everywhere and that crossmember is 2x6 rather than 2x4 that most people use so it should
be plenty strong.

I think Hector is suggesting you would improve strength of the assembly, and fatigue resistance, if the top of the kick down, where you currently engage the bottom of the frame rail , was narrower; and you were to engage both the bottom of the longitudinal rail and the inner vertical surface of the rail. Results in putting some of the shear load into compression and generally increases weld area.

I. watching this thread, as I'm also interested in a narrow track front suspension to replace the Mac Strut in my Capri....

HectorM52
01-06-2013, 04:31 PM
Not sure what you are talking about, they do touch everywhere and that crossmember is 2x6 rather than 2x4 that most people use so it should be plenty strong.
Yeah, Twentyover said it better than I did. There's some added strength in the multiple "directions" that the load touches the framerails.

RS_Customs
01-06-2013, 05:23 PM
About the best picture I have loaded up to PB showing what they are talking about.

Robert
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac271/RS_Customs/Projects/Project%20Just%20For%20Fun/IMG_0466.jpg

HectorM52
01-06-2013, 06:30 PM
Thanks, I was looking for a picture like that...

Anyway, Rick, that's just something to think about. I'm not sure if it's worth any more strength, but a lot of the other subs I've been seeing have had the notch as shown.

avewhtboy
01-06-2013, 07:41 PM
I thought about trying to cut it that way, but decided against it, thought it would actually be weaker than adding a plate there as a gusset. For sure I will
make sure its sufficiently stout in the end. Again in that picture is a 2x4, I think, I am using a 2x6 so its 30% stronger at least! See how far those tubes
stick out of that crossmember? This should be overkill really.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1376.jpg

Hotwire
01-28-2013, 12:51 PM
Bumping the thread / subscribing. :)

Glad to see you got the steering situated, hoping our ramblings over your dinner helped. ;)

Coburn_Performance
01-30-2013, 02:02 PM
Can you post more details on your steering rack and how you connected it to the uprights. I'm facing pretty much the same problem and need all the help I can get before the trigger gets pulled on one of these racing steering racks.

Craig

avewhtboy
01-31-2013, 06:29 AM
Can you post more details on your steering rack and how you connected it to the uprights. I'm facing pretty much the same problem and need all the help I can get before the trigger gets pulled on one of these racing steering racks.

Craig

Here are more pictures, I checked out your thread, I didn't comment because I am certainly no expert, just a guy building a car.
I did basically the same thing you did with string to figure out where the rack needed to be for the inner tie rod ends to not induce
bump steer, to correct ackerman and allow for oil pan clearance.

Oil pan clearance is still to be determined, I believe I will be using the pan from an F-body which still may need to be modified to clear the rack.

I am not too concerned with this, I think its just a matter of determining which pan to use without buying 5 different ones.

The rack has 18.25 inches between the inner tie rod ends. I mounted 1/4 inch plate to the front of my cross member and mounted it
on that plate. It will most likely need to be spaced up about 1/2 inch for bumpsteer, spacers are made for this. I got this rack from ebay for
less than $50 shipped, really just using it for mocking up the frame, proof of concept, but I believe this rack length will work fine.

Check out Sweet, Coleman as well as Woodward already pointed out.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1378.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/IMG_1377.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1342_zps7516ecc0.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1343_zps85f21e6e.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1344_zpsefc5fdb8.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1345_zps4dfdfe24.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1346_zpsad8d8656.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1347_zpsad1233ff.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1348_zps7ccabcde.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1353_zps2d157a0e.jpg

there are more pictures on my photobucket page you can browse around or if you need anything specifically let me know

avewhtboy
01-31-2013, 11:17 AM
I have moved toward the back of the car now. Adam came over and we cut some rear frame rails but ran out of steel. The plan was to mini tub it, this is more complicated on a "unibody" car since the frame rails run through the inner rear wheel well. Going to make it a little larger than planned initially, that way I can get the car lower and possibly fit 305 tires on the back.

I am curious about were to mount the rear trailing arms. This is a torque arm 3 link with the torque arm front link connected to the transmission crossmember, really just 4th gen F body adapted to fit (shortened). My plan was to mount the front pickup point as far outward as possible while
leaving room for the tires. This would leave the trailing arms mounted outside of the rear kickup frame rails. I noticed most frames seem to have
the pickup points either inside the frame rails or directly on them. Is there a reason for me not to mount them outside the rail, my thinking is I want
them as wide apart as possible? No?

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1354_zps6bdf90b5.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1357_zps99263ab5.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1358_zps94c3cfea.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1260.jpg

avewhtboy
11-26-2013, 08:26 AM
I am updating this and leaving it under suspension because I am still working on the suspension, front and rear now, so I have lots of questions.

I guess it's high time for some updates, I for sure have more to do but did get it in a "roller" state. Should have my welder coming over soon to try to get this thing all burned in and sufficiently gusseted.

I ended up taking 14 inches out of the F-body rear axle to get it narrowed enough to fit the Corvette style offset wheels. So the rear axle is 2001 F-body with abs sensor for 3 channel system. It has a zexel torsen posi unit and 4:11 gears. I went ahead and had the tubes welded to the center section and bought one of those aluminum covers that brace the inner bearing caps. The axles are from Moser 28 spline, custom length to fit the housing.

All this was done to keep the lighter weight of the F-body axle to also allow use of the torque arm mount built in the housing.

I ended up with a full frame for the car. Initially I was not planning to back half the car but once we cut out enough room for the tires it seemed like what had to be done.

I bought a set of 10 inch long ridetech coilover shocks and mounts to suspend the car. I have to say ridetech was great and delivery was quick and as ordered.

I toyed with using a watts link for the side to side control on the rear axle but decided to go with the panhard bar instead, though I have not finalized the location of this.

Once I set it on the ground the frame measured six inches from the floor in the front of the car and 6.5 inches in the rear. I suspect that to lose 1-2 inches more once the motor trans, gas tank etc are in the car. So its sufficiently low.

I did buy an F-body oil pan to test fit but think I may end up using the truck pan just shortened a bit to keep it off the ground. Still to be determined for the oil pan.

Pictures

Motor test fit, I think this is with the F-body pan, which is sitting on the crossmember.


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1494_zpsda44c26d.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1494_zpsda44c26d.jpg.html)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1495_zps1c94b1d7.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1495_zps1c94b1d7.jpg.html)

Front Suspension with RideTech Coil Over shocks

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1648_zps86d6b6cf.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1648_zps86d6b6cf.jpg.html)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1652_zpsd5c05196.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1652_zpsd5c05196.jpg.html)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1654_zps123bbf15.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1654_zps123bbf15.jpg.html)


http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1656_zpsed75fa40.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1656_zpsed75fa40.jpg.html)

Rear suspension with Ride Tech coil over shocks

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1658_zpsdf29184a.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1658_zpsdf29184a.jpg.html)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1660_zpse5af1ba5.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1660_zpse5af1ba5.jpg.html)

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn164/avewhtboy/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1668_zps953583ba.jpg (http://s304.photobucket.com/user/avewhtboy/media/Pontiac%20Astre/IMG_1668_zps953583ba.jpg.html)

Hotwire
11-26-2013, 08:38 AM
Looks good Rick! I have a truck pan and pickup in the shed if you need it. Also if you need a panhard bar to mock with, check out a late model suburban or tahoe, should be more than enough length and give you ideas for mounting.

avewhtboy
11-26-2013, 10:57 AM
Looks good Rick! I have a truck pan and pickup in the shed if you need it. Also if you need a panhard bar to mock with, check out a late model suburban or tahoe, should be more than enough length and give you ideas for mounting.


Hey Jeff, thanks but I have a truck pan I got from Adam and I have a panhard bar and brackets I bought from Speedway they just are not pictured because I am
not certain where it's going yet. I am going to take some pictures of it mocked in different places with questions regarding effects.