g body road course

[malibu43]

hi there,i want to ask to the gurus some issue with my car.
According to rules i cannot run with aftermarket spindles and a arms,and i have problems to get the 2ºnegative camber because i had to put lots of shims in there to get those 2º,does anybody knows some tricks for this problems,the tricks got to be very hide,you know,nobody can see it.some pics will be great.
thanks and happy new year

[UMI Tech]

Which sanctioning body? Do you have a copy of the rule book?

Not that we would ever try to bend rules...:angel:

ramey

[FatfreeGTO]

You could put an offset cross shaft in you upper a-arms to gain some negative camber and lose some of your shims

[malibu43]

sorry but i don`t know what are you talking about,please explain.thanks

[malibu43]

ramey,what do you need to know? i don`t know what is sanctioning body,am looking for tricks wich has to be very hide ahaha

[UMI Tech]

ramey,what do you need to know? i don`t know what is sanctioning body,am looking for tricks wich has to be very hide ahaha

Where are you planning on racing and who makes the rules?

ramey

[mpozzi]

Is this car ever street-driven or modified for road course/autocross use and only driven on the track? And, like Ramey asked above, what sanctioning organization are you working with and class are you striving for?

Mary Pozzi

[SicMonte]

not sure if this is going to help but here is my build thread. My monte is set up for street use that see's a lot of autoX and road course time. I just installed Ridetech coil over's on all four corners but I haven't updated the build thread yet.

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?67083-Project-SicMonte

[exwestracer]

Where are you planning on racing and who makes the rules?

ramey

You won't believe it when he tells you... LOL.

How you doing, Jorge?

[FatfreeGTO]

sorry but i don`t know what are you talking about,please explain.thanks

Offset cross shafts are the shaft where your shims are located. They are commonly use for vehicles that have been in an accident when the alignment shop isn't able to get enough positive camber due to the hit. Or from the frame sagging on an old car. In your case you simply install them backwards and they allow you to gain some negative camber and not use so many shims. It would be stealthy and if anyone asked you could play dumb and say they were on the car.

Here is an old link but some info is in it. standard vs offset (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?19113-Standard-vs-Offset-UCA-Shafts)

[UMI Tech]

You won't believe it when he tells you... LOL.

How you doing, Jorge?

Uh oh.

[SicMonte]

You won't believe it when he tells you... LOL.

How you doing, Jorge?

waiting....I gotta hear this!!

[UMI Tech]

On a side note Douglas, I just looked through your entire build. Very impressive! Your car has an awesome stance.

ramey

[malibu43]

hey ray,thanks for the intro.
the car its a race car here in chile,and i race it as road course,but the rules are very closer to stock,in fact the race series name is stock car,its a 80 malibu,with 350,4 speed saginaw,4.11 rear gears,12bolt rear end,almost the whole suspension its stock,but we took the body out to stiff de frame,and build a roll cage ,we cut the floor pan to fit in,am sending you pics how it looks now,remmember any help will be always apreciated.
thanks

[malibu43]

the pics

[malibu43]

hey ray,thanks for the intro.
the car its a race car here in chile,and i race it as road course,but the rules are very closer to stock,in fact the race series name is stock car,its a 80 malibu,with 350,4 speed saginaw,4.11 rear gears,12bolt rear end,almost the whole suspension its stock,but we took the body out to stiff de frame,and build a roll cage ,we cut the floor pan to fit in,am sending you pics how it looks now,remmember any help will be always apreciated.
thanks

[malibu43]

thanks for the shafts info,i need to know how can i make them by myself,you know budget in chile are very tie.

[exwestracer]

Car looks great! Very professional. I never saw a picture of it completed. You didn't run the exhaust out the side like the other cars you showed me?

Can you get square nuts (go ahead and laugh, guys...)?
53356
If you find some one size bigger than the mounting bolts, weld them on behind the shims and paint them, it might not look like a lot of spacer in there...
53358

[UMI Tech]

And you wonder why Pro-Touring is a fun hobby? Jorge is why!

[UMI Tech]

I wonder if a 1/2" taller ball joint would look too noticeable?

[malibu43]

so do you like it?,Any chance to sponsor my car Ramey? haha
thats why always i said any help will be apreciated,the car has been developed with a lot of questions,and a lot of blood ,sweat,and tears

[malibu43]

ray i thoght that i send you the pics with the car done,like you said the headers are in the right way,i never liked it how the other cars looks like it,otherwise i had to cut the sides of the fiberglass hood,and i like the way it is,if you can see,the hood has three parts,one are the fenders witch are welded to the body,two its the front of the car the red piece,and the other its the hood itself.looks nice don`t you think?

[Norm Peterson]

Hi Jorge,

Are you permitted to reinforce the A-arms "for durability under racing conditions"?

Hot work can sometimes do funny things, like making some things a tiny bit longer and others a tiny bit shorter . . . and some welders are absolute artists . . . I think Ray knows where this is going.


Norm

[malibu43]

Norm,i think i got a little clue for what are you talking about,but my technical english its not the best,thats why always ask for pics,so if you have some .... will be great.
thanks

[malibu43]

i forgot to tell you guys,i did some trick with the lower a arms,i made other holes to the frame so the lower arm when a little outside of the car,but the rules inspector CATCH ME.jajaja,so i had to go back where supposed to be stock possition.

[UMI Tech]

Hi Jorge,

Are you permitted to reinforce the A-arms "for durability under racing conditions"?

Hot work can sometimes do funny things, like making some things a tiny bit longer and others a tiny bit shorter . . . and some welders are absolute artists . . . I think Ray knows where this is going.


Norm

We used to run a '76 Monte Carlo street stock on asphalt. We were only allowed stock steering components in the stock location. You'd be surprised how a frame repair after a crash can fix bump steer...

[malibu43]

ramey,tell me more about it,

[UMI Tech]

Bump steer is caused when the lower a-arm and tie rod travel in a different arc. If your car has bump steer you can change it by raising/lowering the mounts for the steering (i.e. the steering box and idler arm). We had crashed one time, actually many times, but one particular time we cut the front end loose and moved it up and down until the bump steer was correct. Of course this explanation is the simplified version as it took many evenings and much measuring and testing and welding to get it right...

[exwestracer]

Ramey, I think he is already using the bumpsteer correcter tie rod ends...right, Jorge?

In case you guys are wondering, I have spent the last year or so helping Jorge off and on with the build of this car via email...

[malibu43]

yes,yes,ray,has been helping me a lot,and you are correct,i fix my bump steer problem but i have to redone again,because i change the spindles (stock ones) so i think its better to do it again.
if you guys wondering,i can tell you Ray its the man.
my next test in the track will be rear suspension,so be ready Ray to the question bomber.
its true what i ve read about the cross shafts,if you turn it 180º you can get more negative camber?but i thing not in every model,or am i wrong?

[exwestracer]

Maybe some of them. If you look at the picture in post 18, see how the flats on both sides of the shaft are the same distance from the center of the bolts on the ends. You would have to have a different distance there for it to be offset.

[malibu43]

ok my man,got it now,get ready,for the rear suspension questions.
if the car where yours,what you`l do in the rear susp,please if some pics will be great.
thanks a lot again

[exwestracer]

Better question is what CAN you do? Stock design? Stock parts?

[SPi]

We have built a few vintage race cars that run in classes with similar rules. For example, we built three C3 big block corvettes that had to have `stock appearing`control arms. so we take a stock control arm and cut, bend, shape, weld, and refinish so it maintains a stock look but gives the benefit of an aggressive alignment and much better ball joint angles. You can achieve what you want out of the stock control arms, but it does take quite a bit of time and trial and error. Also, it is smart to build a jig and fab more than one set in case you damage one, especially at the track. I will add some pics tomorrow if I have any.
Drew

[exwestracer]

SPI... Haha, on a big block C3 I could see that being a BIG advantage...

Jorge, did you ever race the 43 car without the rear sway bar? What exactly is the handling problem you are trying to fix in the rear? Sorry if you told me before and I forgot....

[malibu43]

ray i haven`t yet because the season its closed,but i will try in the track in a few more weeks,remember always the rear of my car try to pass me,i really need to make fast turns,any help as ussual will be great.
thanks

[Norm Peterson]

Ray - any chance ↑↑↑ is what Bob Bolles describes as "tight-loose"?


Jorge - SPi has described (see Post #34) in a lot more detail what I was hinting at. Cut the lower arms, space the two pieces just a little further apart than the cut width, and re-weld. Cut the uppers, butt the two pieces together, do a little edge prep, and reweld. A straight cut mm here and a couple there will be good for about 1° camber, and you could then use a grinder so that on rewelding you get a little more positive caster. You might have to do just a little reshaping to make it look unmodified. (Generally for this sort of tweaking I'd rather hint at what you might try than post what might be a blatantly illegal mod, but this one's been pretty much blown out into the open anyway).


Norm

[UMI Tech]

"Pushy loose" is common in the circle track world (from whence I came).

On a side note, Bob Bolles is my editor as I'm a Circle Track technical contributor. My name is even in the front each month. I really need to get going on the UMI oval track product line...

There's links at the top of my archive page: http://www.womerracing.com/resultspage.htm

ramey

ps sorry for the self-linking but I got excited seeing a Circle Track reference

[exwestracer]

I had discussed with Jorge about it being "pushy-loose".

He assured me the front wasn't bottoming (my "go-to" check on stock G bodies). I told him to pull the rear bar off and run it to see if it fixed the problem. Apparently he hasn't yet had the opportunity. Until I had that information, I was waiting to give him any more ideas.

I'd welcome any input, and I know Jorge would for sure!

[malibu43]

ray,could be one of my problems what i told you the other day(write),when i said that i move the lower arms a little outside making a new holes in the frame?maybe i did wrong and that was one of my problems?could it be?
regards

[exwestracer]

ray,could be one of my problems what i told you the other day(write),when i said that i move the lower arms a little outside making a new holes in the frame?maybe i did wrong and that was one of my problems?could it be?
regards


I think it was a good idea and should not have caused the rear end to "try to pass you".

[Norm Peterson]

If you move the chassis side of the rear lower arms outward so that they are almost parallel in plan (top) view without also moving them to be downhill from axle to chassis, you'll get loose steer.

That's what I think I'm reading, anyway.


Norm

[exwestracer]

ray,could be one of my problems what i told you the other day(write),when i said that i move the lower arms a little outside making a new holes in the frame?maybe i did wrong and that was one of my problems?could it be?
regards


Jorge,
Just so we are clear on this, did you move the front suspension lower arms out , or the rear?

[malibu43]

i did move the front lower a arms outside,kind of 10mm from its original holes by the frame,the rear lower are paralell to the ground,i believe i got some problem with uppers? i don`y know in what possition they has to be,paralel to,little up from the rear end,or up from the frame side or viceversa,that got me a little confused.
in the rear lowers i did some bracket to relocated down from the axle side ,to be more parallel.

[malibu43]

could be the whole problem because i got a 12bolt rear end from a c10 truck? i mean its wider then the stock ones,and also am running with 265/50/15,and the rear end steering itself.? i don`t know
thanks

[exwestracer]

Can you post a couple of the same pictures you sent me of the rear end as it is now? That might help all of us understand better exactly what you've got now.

[malibu43]

here the pics,i did took out the rear sway bar already.

[exwestracer]

When you push down on the back of the car, does the suspension seem to move ok? Or is it very hard and only the tires bounce?

[malibu43]

i did the test before,and i took the shocks(unbolt) and then the suspension moves freely,i mean with no problem it all.i ve notice with the shock bolted the suspension was moving up and down with no problem.

[malibu43]

ray,i been reading about the gulstrand mod,but i need to know the template they use will be the same for g body? i mean it will work in my car?
i think its a great mod.
thanks

[exwestracer]

ray,i been reading about the gulstrand mod,but i need to know the template they use will be the same for g body? i mean it will work in my car?
i think its a great mod.
thanks

Jorge,
I'm not sure about a template for the G body... For what you are doing, I don't think you can go too far with it. Like I said, if you are going to cut the whole mount off anyway, don't re-drill it, just cut the bottom off to where the rear bushing just clears the top of the frame.

Use a scribe to mark where the sides of the mount are on the frame rail, so you can get the caster back where it was. I wouldn't try to move the mount front to rear, just in. Make sure you move both ends the same, and it should align ok.

[malibu43]

ray,can you upload some pics for what are you talking about,am litlle confused at this time jaja,thanks again.
regards

[exwestracer]

53742

Mark the frame (orange arrows) with lines at the edges of the mounts BEFORE you cut them off. Then when you move the mounts (blue arrows) and weld them back on, those lines will help you line the mounts back up front to rear.

[malibu43]

got it ray,thanks a lot,its very clearly for me now.

[exwestracer]

Jorge,
I think I may have figured out why the rear is sliding out on you. Set the car on stands, take the rear springs out, put a jack under the center of the axle at ride height and try to move the ends of the axle up and down. If it is hard to twist, you may have too much down angle in the upper rear links.

53780

[malibu43]

ray,the blue arrows are for the direction where i have to move the rear end? i mean up and down,,tomorrow at night i will be in my car doing the test so i let you know on thursday,and like always thank you very much.

[malibu43]

let me get it clear,i take the springs out,and then put a jack under the center of the rear end,but if i let to ride height the weels will be touch the ground,sorry but i dont understand.

[exwestracer]

You have to raise the whole car up, too (or take the tires off). Yes, you have the idea correct.

[malibu43]

Ray i will do the test on saturday,so i will post you the results on monday.
thanks again

[malibu43]

Ray i did the test and the rear end moves freely from up and down,but i notice that the rear maybe are not straight,i mean ,when i try to put back the springs one was hard to put in possition then the other,will be the problem that the ears are not in the possition that has to be?.
any help will be great

[exwestracer]

Ray i did the test and the rear end moves freely from up and down,but i notice that the rear maybe are not straight,i mean ,when i try to put back the springs one was hard to put in possition then the other,will be the problem that the ears are not in the possition that has to be?.
any help will be great

I guess it's possible the rear end is not square. Are the springs sitting at different angles (front to rear)?

When you raced it, did you notice that it was trying to spin out more in left turns, right turns, or both?

[malibu43]

ray the spring are not in straight position,one its more ahed to the engine then the other,and when i raced in left hand turns the right wheel spinning a lot,but in the opsited conditions right turns(very tight) the rear try to pass me.
hope this help you
thanks

[malibu43]

what am sure about the rear end its has the same wheelbase in both sides

[exwestracer]

Ok, did you also check to make sure the car is square? X measurement from lower ball joints to the ends of the rear axle? I don't remember if we talked about that or not, sorry...

[malibu43]

nop,do you suggest to do it? and square if it needs?

[exwestracer]

nop,do you suggest to do it? and square if it needs?

Yes. Very important if you are turning left and right. Just make sure you are going off exactly the same point on both ends of the rear axle.

54568
When I measure this, I drop a plumb bob off of the brake drum step, right against the flange. Use the grease fittings in the lower ball joints for your front points.

[malibu43]

Ray,our friend Chris Allen its in chile for a while,and he visit to me today and we talk about my issues for 1 hour,and he teach me how to measure my car and also told me that maybe my big problem its from the beginning when i swap the rear end, the stock one from the 12 bolt from c-10 pick up truck,also he told me 5 different ways to measure the square of my car i will do it during the week,i think the whole problem its the rear end and its not square at all.
Anyway guys,i apreciated all your help and advices ,and i will continued working in my car and racing because its more then a passion its a way to live the life,and life its good.
thanks

[130fe]

Ray, Chris here. I talked with Jorge today and we discussed several ways to measure the "squareness" of his car. I will help him and we will try to figure out why things aren't right.

[exwestracer]

Chris,
That's cool that you get to see it first hand. Hope you guys can get it "squared away" for him. Let us know what you find out!

[malibu43]

yeah ,thanks to both of you guys.

[malibu43]

ok guys,i did my homework last saturday,the only thin i did not measure was the upper control arms mount,and upper spring perch.
all measures are taking in metric,and the references point was the lower ball joint. seeing the pics i understand that something its wrong with my car,hope this helps us guys.
regards

[malibu43]

here we go548705487154872548735487454875

[malibu43]

can you guys see that the rear left spring its not in the right possition its more forward to the other side(one problem).

[exwestracer]

Good job! Looking at all the drawings, the axle is definitely your problem.

NOW...looking at the first 2 drawings, the wheelbase is shorter on the right side, BUT the diagonal is longer. The ONLY way this is possible is if the axle is twisted and offset to the right a LOT.

Set the axle on stands with the rear tires off and measure from the brake backing plate straight to the frame rail on each side. I'll bet you find it's further on the right side than the left.

I think you forund your problem, amigo...

One question about the measurements. Are you sure the distance from the lower mounts to the ball joints (drawings 3 and 4) is the same straight AND diagonal...? That should not be possible.

[malibu43]

ray,the second drawing its from lower(axle side) sping perch to lower ball joint so,maybe the difference its because the left hand perch its foward then the other,could it be? and also i send you pics from both sides of the springs,the left one its inclinated to the front of the car,thays way the measurements diare differents? i guess.
dont understand about brake backing plate to the frame rail,sorry
thanks

[malibu43]

if what you saying its right(i think so),how can i fixed? and do you have the measurements fron a stock rear end so i can make it exactly to the one i have in the car?

[exwestracer]

54886

Measure between frame and back of brake plate here.

[malibu43]

got it ,thanks a lot.

[exwestracer]

Did you weld the spring pads on the axle or are they stock? Maybe measure from the axle ends straight forward to the ball joints (like drawing 1 except straight forward, not across).

Please re-check #3 and #4 as well. These measurements are not possible...

[malibu43]

ray you re absolutly right,i made a mistake in the drawing nº3 it must be 2.98 and 2.985.
the pads on the axle are not stock,the rear end come from 69 or something like that from a chevy pick up,the one used to have a panhard bar.
what abou this,if i cut everything all the upper ears,lower mounts for lca and springs pads,square the rear end again and weld everything back in the right possition? i could do it but i don`t have the stock measurements from a stock rear end,i think one of my problems also its that the upper ears are mounting to close to the edge of the pumking and that way the uca are too down from the axle side,coul it be.
ray the whole story its i buy to the guy the rear axle and he told me that was ready to fit in the g body,i think he lie to me,but there`s nothing i can do because was a while ago and the guy its no longer available.
anyway am trying to do the best with all my friends help,so if i got to fixed i will.

[exwestracer]

See how far off center it is and go from there. When you put the axle in the car, was it hard to get all the bolts lined up to go in?

[malibu43]

ray,i don`t remember if was hard or not,but take me some time ti fit in,specially the uppers.i think i have to redone everything,and straight in up.
thanks

[malibu43]

ray,let me work on saturday and i let you know.
thanks

[malibu43]

Ray,am posting the new measurements with drawn,i hope this help to make a desicion,at this time i get the help from a friend to take the goos measurements,any question let me know.
thanks again

[exwestracer]

Did you move any brackets, or just measure it again? It all looks much better. Did #6 change, or did you just measure it after?

[malibu43]

better picnº5

[malibu43]

ray i haven`t move any brackets the car its the way it was before,now i had the chance to work with a friend and plom bob,but stills need some work to fix,and i don`t know how.i was thinking to start all over again,buy a stock rear end,and get the gear ratio that i need,but budget its tie in this time.
Any suggestion will be great to fix my issues.
thanks

[malibu43]

the first time i took measuremente i didin`t take a pics from the back brake plate to the frame,this its the first time.

[exwestracer]

the first time i took measuremente i didin`t take a pics from the back brake plate to the frame,this its the first time.

I don't know Jorge, with the new measurements it doesn't look all that bad. I'd leave that axle in it and run it without the rear sway bar before you start cutting it up. I don't know why the spring perches are so far off, but the axle is what really matters and that looks closer to being right. IF the axle moves freely like I asked about earlier, it should handle ok with what you have.

[malibu43]

ray ,i think the lower perches has to be reweld to propper possition,so the spring will be working at all his travelin the right way.if the axle moves freely up and down(tested before) how much travel it has to have? 3.4.5 inches?,because in the laterally way it doesn`t move at all.
i will get the pinnion angle finder to check my measurements,i think the whole problems are the upper control arms,can you tell me (pics) the way it has to be set up with the car resting at floor,i thing my deal its TRACTION,or the rear end its too wide?
i like to say thanks ray and the other guys to get me the chance to learn and help me to get my car right.
my best regards

[exwestracer]

3" up from ride height is plenty of travel. Just make sure the axle will twist too. The wide rear will make the car more stable once you get it set up right. Can you raise the front mounts for the upper arms? I still think they may have too much down angle for your racing.

[malibu43]

ray,what about if i can get the chance to fabricated a new uppers rear? adjustable ones ?will be better then nothing' or definitely i have to rise the rears upper (frame side),do you know how can it be achieve?thanks amigo

[exwestracer]

Jorge,
Do you have room in the front brackets to drill new holes higher up? If you went to spherical bearings (see photo), you might have more room to move them up. Not likely anyone would notice them way up under there. I don't think you need to make them adjustable if you get the pinion angle correct. Just make the arms the length you need.
55376

[malibu43]

ray what do you mean in the fron brackets? pumking side? i check my car saturday and i dont have plenty room to make new holes in the upper frame bracket,so i have to try other,can you show me some pics about how it has to be install? thanks again amigo

[exwestracer]

ray what do you mean in the fron brackets? pumking side? i check my car saturday and i dont have plenty room to make new holes in the upper frame bracket,so i have to try other,can you show me some pics about how it has to be install? thanks again amigo

Not much you can do on the axle mounts, Jorge. If you are going to take some angle out of the upper links, it will have to be on the frame brackets...OR you will have to run a higher ride height.

[malibu43]

i will try to make a couple of extra pair of holes,ok and thanks

[exwestracer]

i will try to make a couple of extra pair of holes,ok and thanks

I didn't say it would be easy, but working on the axle will probably be worse...

[malibu43]

all right

[130fe]

Hey Jorge, stop goofing around on here and get back to work JAJAJA just kidding. Will have a few things for you when I come back in a couple of days. I will send you an email today.

[malibu43]

hey amigo , i had the chance to write in the forum,am running the shop bymyself,juan carlos is on vacation,lot of work here,you work 3 days a week and have vacations? i need your job man.
hope to see you soon
regards