Ridetech Spindle Machined Wrong?

[piratebaseball]

Hey guys...its me again with a question. Me and dad were trying to hook up Wilwood brakes to the ridetech spindles and the seal does not really seal on the back side. After looking at the stock disc brake spindle and the ridetech spindle, we have found the problem. If you look at the pictures of the ridetech spindle I've attached, about 1/16" is machined out at an angle where the seal would seat. I put the brakes on the original stock spindle and I could feel it seal when we when to pull them off. Not so with the ridetechs. If the ridetechs were machined on the edge like factory brakes or like they show in this picture, http://www.ridetech.com/images/category/tru-turn-d4.jpg, they would be fine. So is this a machining issue or do I need to try to figure out new seals? Maybe an offset seal of some sorts. Either way, the way they match up now, dirt and water will be able to get in the back side. Thanks guys

[TheJDMan]

You need to contact RideTech!

[piratebaseball]

Thanks Steve, thats what I was figuring. They should know me by now...even though their stuff is really nice this has been the 3rd problem with my coilover kit.

[bret]

Can't really tell much from the pictures, probably need to see those spindles back to make sure there is no problem. send your Wilwood hub while you're at it so we can make sure everything is compatible. We can turn it around the same day. You'll need an rma number so it doesn't get lost when it gets to our building.
What have been your other problems?

[Vegas69]

My guess is that you need a different seal or you don't have a problem. Measure the distance from you bearing race to the seal lip and then transfer it over to the spindle for a measurment. The seal should ride nowhere close to the chamfer.

[David Pozzi]

Is the seal flush with the edge of the hub? you didn't drive it all the way in did you?

[bret]

Coincidently, I just pulled a set of spindles off the shelf last night and installed a set of Baer brakes on a 67 Chevelle I'm working on at home. Everything fit perfect.
Do both your spindles have the same problem? It's possible that one spindle could have been mis-machined...much less likely 2 of them were, and that they would have gotten in the same box.
...but I have seen stranger things...

[exwestracer]

Also wondering if the inner bearing race is fully seated in the hub? The seal lip really should go further up than the very edge of the register...

[piratebaseball]

Both spindles were the same way and I pressed the seal flush with the outside of the hub. If the seal would have been out of the hub say 1/16" that would have sealed I believe. With the seal sitting flush in the hub, the seal comes up to the edge of the angled corner when the bearings are sitting flush with the back side. I'll try to take some pictures tonight of the hubs but I'm going to call Ridetech today to see. My stock disc spindles on the edge look like ridetech's website picture. These I have just look like they've had too much taken off the corner when they were machined. Either way, I'm going to call ridetech this morning and I'm sure I'll start disassembling them tonight to hopefully get them shipped back to ridetech asap so I can finally finish the suspension.

[exwestracer]

If you haven't already, I'd still check the inner race. It should be clear down against the lip 52749in the hub. It still doesn't seem like the seal should be that close...

[piratebaseball]

I don't think its the seal though because everything fits perfect on the stock disc brake spindles. When I slide them on the stock disc brake spindles, it seals perfectly on the backside. Like I said though, I'm about to call ridetech.

[piratebaseball]

1) The rear 4 link set up cam with 2 different size springs so I had to swap one of them for the right size
2) The ball joint holes didn't match up to the holes on the control arms so I had to ream/drill to make them fit.

I know these are minor things and I am extremely happy with the product and what its going to do with my ride. Customer service at ridetech has been great as well. I'm just frusted right now because it feels like for every step I take, I have to pause 2 weeks before I'm allowed to take the next step (took 4 months just to get the 12 bolt from Moser). Dad has told me thats hot rodding. If thats the case I may change my signature to hot rod king :)

[bret]

Your Dad is right...there is a certain amount of "pain" associated with anything worthwhile. Although none of it is intentional, the wide variety of components built by a wide variety of manufacturers can sometimes cause incompatibility problems.
And sometime things just get...screwed up.
We build our own cars [and some customers] here so we see this on a daily basis...to the point where its now taken for granted. I've been known to say "its nothing that a 2 million dollar machine shop can't fix".
A perfect example was the coilover system that we installed on Project X a couple of months ago. Check out post in the open forum, or the Feb. 2012 issue of Popular Hotrodding. Because of the way that the Corvette components were installed, we had to make a special spacer to get clearance between the front spring and the control arm. The original installaer did nothing "wrong"...just happened that his particular choice of installation created a problem for our particular component later on.
And so it goes.

Anyhow the point was not minimize you situation...that is a simple "go / no go" deal, and we'll fix it asap. Just trying to let you know that you are not alone in the stormy seas of hotrodding:)

[67zo6Camaro]

1) The rear 4 link set up cam with 2 different size springs so I had to swap one of them for the right size
2) The ball joint holes didn't match up to the holes on the control arms so I had to ream/drill to make them fit.

I know these are minor things and I am extremely happy with the product and what its going to do with my ride. Customer service at ridetech has been great as well. I'm just frusted right now because it feels like for every step I take, I have to pause 2 weeks before I'm allowed to take the next step (took 4 months just to get the 12 bolt from Moser). Dad has told me thats hot rodding. If thats the case I may change my signature to hot rod king :)

Lol, be patient young one... (paint on then paint off). As you learn from experience, just about all of the same model cars are slightly different. Some by assembly from the factory and some just by plan use over the 40 something years. After market parts are designed to do there best to come as close to the standard deviation in sizing and/or machining as possible. Although the parts are superior in design and quality to the originals, they typically need some minor adjustments to fit for each case by case vehicle.

Good luck, it will eventually get to the point you are looking for. And then you can enjoy the reward.

[piratebaseball]

Hey guys,
Just wanted to give you an update. Got tired of waiting so I called Ridetech today. They said the spindle was perfectly fine and that all of them were shaved that much on the large diameter part of the spindle. The person I talked said that they slid a wilwood brake on the spindle and it sealed fine on the back side. So now with that being said, has anybody installed Wilwood brakes on a Ridetech spindle? These are the same wilwood brakes that Frank at Prodigy Customs sales on his website. If so, has anybody had a problem with the seal in the kit sealing? If anybody has the seal part number that you are using with no problems, please post so that I can check and see if the problem is that wilwood sent me the wrong seal. Thanks guys!

[exwestracer]

I still think you have a bearing issue. Looking at your pictures above, it looks like the Ridetech spindle has a very large chamfer where the inner bearing sits. Pull the bearing out of the hub and make sure the face of the inner race contacts the step on the spindle. You won't see this with the bearing inside the hub, and there's no way to tell if the bearing is hitting the chamfer or the surface of the seal boss step. Also, did you double check to make sure the outer races in the hubs are seated all the way against the steps?

The seal really should not be that close to the edge in any case.

[Apogee]

I'd be curious to know the relative depths of the bearing and seal counterbores to one another on your Wilwood hubs as it sounds like it could be something either related to the bearing as Ray suggests or just the seal postion in the hub relative to it. Considering how many of these Wilwood has installed and running, I would tend to think it's a bearing placement/seating issue along with Ray.

Tobin
KORE3

[piratebaseball]

I do not have the flanges in my hubs like you did in your picture and I'm pretty sure the race is down as far as it will go. Please look at my pics and see if any of you guys see anything unnormal. Thanks guys!

[exwestracer]

It looks like the hub has a definite stop for the seal, so I doubt you pressed it in too far. The seal lip does appear to be very close to the inner bearing race, which doesn't seem quite right.... I can't see form the pic whether the race is fully seated in the hub. I'd get in there with a dental mirror or hook pick and make sure the race is down against it's seat.

Did you check the bearing fitment on the spindle? You said the seal worked fine on the stock spindle, so that seems to be where the difference is. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but the seal should not be so close to the lip that a 1/16" chamfer drops it off the edge.

[BuzzKillian]

I am not familar with Willwood hubs... but, It looks to me that the seal has been installed backwards. Most of the seals I have installed had a flange on them and could only be installed one way. Hollow side out... that would move the sealing lip out, probably almost a 1/4".

[exwestracer]

Hub seals may or may not have a flange because the stop may be machined into the hub. It might be the wrong shape seal lip (???), but it's pointed the right direction.

[piratebaseball]

I noticed that the original seal from Wilwood was angled and even on a description on O'Reilly's website that it said angled as well. It's angled back in towards the hub. I wonder if they make a seal that isn't angled and if that would give me that much more of a seal on the spindle side to get past the bevel to the flat part? I went in with a mirror and the race is seated all the way I believe. There is no lip that it sits next to though. My only problem is that it fit and sealed fine on the stock spindle that basically had no bevel on the edge of the large diameter of the spindle. The ridetech's have a huge bevel and it's not sealing. But ridetech said all of theirs are like that and they said they put a wilwood disc brake on my spindle with no problem?

[exwestracer]

Here's a diagram of a typical Wilwood hub
53658

The bearing race is the blue piece. Note the lip machined into the hub behind the race. If you couldn't see/feel a gap in there, then the race is probably seated. If there was a space there from a burr, debris, or whatever; the bearing would ride too far out of the hub and too close to the the seal lip. They are all CNC'd, so you may have got some that accidentally weren't bored deep enough for the bearing???

I understand that the 2 spindles are machined slightly differently and that the hub does seal on your old spindle. I can only keep saying: the...seal...should...not...be...that...close...to ...the...edge...

It could also be a design issue. Wilwood may have cut the seal depth tolerance close on a stock spindle to save a little weight. I know Ridetech said their set fit fine, but that was a different person looking at a different set.

Did you double check that the bearing installs all the way up to the face of the spindle boss?

[piratebaseball]

Here are some pictures that I took this afternoon. It is a hodge podge worth of stuff. The spindles in the picture are the stock factory spindles as I have not received the ridetech spindles back from them yet. The measurements from the inside of the inner race to outside of the hub measured 7/8". The inner race was bottomed out as you can see in ther picture. From the outside of the race to the outside of the hub was around 3/8". From the back of the bearing seated in the race to the outside of the hub is 1/4". Let me know what you think. Thanks!

[piratebaseball]

Picture #1,2 &3….shows the seal with the “open” side turned outward from the hub. Plenty of seal surface this way, but according to the instructions , the open side goes inward.



Picture #4 & #5…. shows how the seal would be contacting the spindle IF there was no chamfer on the Ridetech spindle, the seal surface contact is complete. Add the chamfer and the seal would be riding on the chamfer edge compromising the seal surface.

(The seal is ¼’’ thick and was positioned flush, where the bearing would seat against the spindle shoulder.)



Picture #6…. Simply shows both sides of the seal



Picture #7….with the bearing & race seated fully in the bore, the seal pressed in correctly in its bore, the measurement is ¼’’.



Picture #8…. confirms race has bottomed out in the bore.



Pic #17…. shows another angle of the seal on the stock spindle with the “open” side out.



Pic #19…. with grease applied to the seal lip, the hub with the bearings and seal was installed on the stock spindle and then removed. You can see, by the grease mark that was left, if the chamfer was not cut on the Ridetech spindles the seal would have plenty of surface area to seal. With the chamfer there is no place except on the “corner” of the that chamfer for the seal to ride.

[piratebaseball]

We also did check to see if the bearing goes all the way up to the spindle. It did. Thanks guys for all your help!

[exwestracer]

We also did check to see if the bearing goes all the way up to the spindle. It did. Thanks guys for all your help!

You really should check that on the Ridetech spindles when you get them back. That's where the problem was after all.

Do you have a set of stock hubs?
https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53665&stc=1&d=1326058794
If so, check the dimensions shown in this picture against a stock one.

[exwestracer]

5369153692

Here is a comparison of just your stock and Ridetech spindles (your photos, cropped) for everyone to look at. I'm still of the opinion that the seal should be further up on the step than the difference in chamfer. It does look like the ridetech may have a slightly larger radius chamfer where the bearing rides, but not much...

Great pics in your last post BTW. The bearing races are definitely seated in the hubs...

[Bad94]

All i can say is i had a Kore C5 brake kit on my stock spindles and i put the ridetech spindles on and put everything off my stock spindles onto the ridetech spindles, and no problems.

[tandk22]

I talked wilwood about my brakes a while ago and they said there kits only work with stock spindals and heidts spindals. might check with wilwood. todd

[jdpepper]

https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53675&stc=1&d=1326058800

Is this as far as the hub will go on the spindle? I may be wrong but if so, I don't think its all the way in.

[piratebaseball]

Yes sir, at that point there the back of the bearing is up against the spindle.


https://www.pro-touring.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53675&stc=1&d=1326058800

Is this as far as the hub will go on the spindle? I may be wrong but if so, I don't think its all the way in.

[jdpepper]

Picture #8…. confirms race has bottomed out in the bore.

It's kind of hard to tell in the pic but it looks like the front race bottomed out but the rear still has room before it bottoms out.

[piratebaseball]

Hey guys just wanted to give you an update. The disc hub that they put on my spindles at Ridetech turned out not being a wilwood. It was a baer hub instead. So does anybody know if wilwood discs fit on these spindles? I believe ridetech is order a hub set to test them and see what the deal is. Now that's customer service!

[piratebaseball]

Just wanted to give you an update. I got my spindles and brake hub back from Ridetech today. Wilwood's brakes will not fit on the ridetech spindle and barely fit on a stock spindle and seal on the back side. Ridetech customer service was great. They really went out of their way to help me out. They sent me two new seals that'll fit to actually seal on the backside and I have to install the seals backwards. I'll get the seal numbers so if you guys run into the same thing, you'll know how to fix it. I'll also get some pics too of the install to show you. Thanks guys for all your help and to ridetech as well!

[exwestracer]

So did you figure out exactly WHAT the difference was? I'm sure there are some others out there who would like to know. Installing a grease seal backwards might fix the problem, but there's obviously a design issue somewhere...

[camrat68]

So are you saying that Wilwood brakes WILL fit on a ridetech spindle as long as you change the seal on the backside?

Jim

[GeoffP]

I'm bumping this to see if maybe the p/n for the seal can be posted. I have Wilwood brakes on my car and want to use Ridetech's Tru Turn on my car in the near future.