fays watts installation

[camaro427-69]

i´m installing the fay´s watts link into my 69. the installation was really easy and straight forward but now i´m struggling with the adjustment. the guide says that the 2 bars running from the leaf spring and the axle tube should be parallel to the axle tubes. i already moved the pivot as far down as possible but still there´s about 1-1.5" missing on the leaf spring bar to get it parallel. what can i do about it? leave it like it is but the manual says they need to be parallel. should i get 2-3" drop leafs for the rear? or should i mount the watts bar lower (i pushed the bar as far up the rear frame till it got stopped from the floor and drilled the lower 4 holes at the mounting points so i can gain about 1" if i pull it and mount at the upper holes but that would mean that i have to slip it almost all the way off the frame so i think there would be a significant drop in stability).

any thoughts?
thanks,
pat

[Bryce]

The watts links need to be parallel at some point in the suspenion travel. I would guess the watts link was designed for a lowered car. The center pivot will define roll center, do you have the roll center set where you want it?

Talk with Gaetano (track junky) he recently installed one and can give you specifics.

[camaro427-69]

hmmmm the one i have is for 1st gen camaro and you have a couple points to adjust the pivot point. my car is stock suspension in the back (multileaf with koni´s)

[Gitter Dun]

Now that you have installed a fays 2 watts link you have two components that will need to share roll centers. The easiest way to figure out where to set the pivot point is to take a measurement from the floor to the center of rear leaf eye. Say for example that is 12". Then take a measurment from the floor to the front leaf eye. Say for example that is 6". You want to set the pivot at center of these two dimensions, so the pivot should be set at 9" off the ground. Hope that makes sense. Dont be too concerned about about how level the bars are. The point where my pivot is in these pictures is not where I have it now. My car sits pretty low and my front leaf spring perches have been relocared so I think its at the second hole up from the bottom now.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/WattsLink101-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/WattsLink100-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/WattsLink099-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/WattsLink098-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/WattsLink097-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/03/WattsLink096-1.jpg

[exwestracer]

I'm sure this is in the instructions, but the main thing with setting up the watts is to make sure the vertical distance between the axle mounts is the same as the center to center distance on the rocker arm. Don't worry about the bars being parallel; as long as the spacing is the same on the ends as in the middle.

[camaro427-69]

ok big help here :) when i look at your pictures the only thing i realize is that my leaf springs add up so much height. here´s a shot from my rearend, it seems to sit really high. it is with the front on the lift and the rear on jackstands but even when i put weight in the trunk it won´t move a bit downwards. probably one of the reasons that the leafs are that high is that the guys in switzerland (car was built by chevrolet in switzerland and also running there till i bought it 8 years ago) fabricated higher springs and the car had high-jackers to pump up the rear (people were weird in the 80s and 90s :bananna2:)
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[Bryce]

At first glance the links look to long to me. Start with the bell crank at 90* to the links. And make sure the links are the same length.

[camaro427-69]

i think i need to get my car lower. if i look at gaetano´s pics the axle sits above the bellcranks middle and my axle is wayyyyy beneath the watts link. what to do.....dropped leaf springs or lowering blocks? btw. i still have my old sway bar, should i get it back in or is watts and sway too much?

[GRNOVA]

I have a Fays installed in my nova from your pics it looks like you need to lower the bell crank , I lowered the entire mount so the center of the pivot is in center if rear housing. Will post pic as soon as I find it.

[GRNOVA]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/12/link002-1.jpg

[SRDzuess4u]

DO NOT RELOCATE the fays lower then the design.

Ray and Tim both have two very good points. If you can stay away from blocks, please do so. You can also call Jim Fay himself, number is right there on the instructions, also if you have TIME...lol...call Marcus at SCand C...he will help you more then you know.

If your in a hurry and want to get this in to see what it does I understand....dont take that wrong....I do understand. But I would also suggest a new set of leafs, maybe a higher weight if those are original. The with the car fully loaded, full gas tank and all, take it to a place that knows how to de-arch the springs to the hieght you want, you will be happier...really. Im running this link as well, good affordable fun stuff. You will NOT need the rear sway.

Thanks Bob

[SRDzuess4u]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/12/link002-1.jpg

Tim...very nice..where does or will the exhaust exit?

[camaro427-69]

thanks tim and bob. i´m definitely not in a hurry cause it´s already winter here in austria and the car is in garage till may. i´m just figuring out cause i will remove the entire rear to get everything overhauled and painted. so good that i test fitted the watts before i did it. gonna remove the leafs anyway so i´ll get some dropped ones.

[neki67]

Pat,

I can't recall your Camaro being that high in the rear. My Camaro has the Watts almost exactly as in Gaetano's pics.

O and FYI; we will be going to Austria again coming summer. This time I won't bring the Camaro since the boys will also come along. We'll have to meet again.

Later,

[camaro427-69]

dang rene. haulin ass on the roads was so much fun this summer.......thought about writing you a message with whatsapp on the watts.

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[neki67]

Didn't see those pics yet! Thanks I'll add them to my album. And yes it was good fun hitting the Austrian roads together. Hope to do it again one day.

I don't use Whatsapp much since I don't have a 3G subscription . . .. . (my employer doesn't want it and they're paying for it) so best sending me an email, textmessage or a PM.

For what it's worth; I use composite leafs with spherical bearings in stead of the poly bushings they come with originally. Same set up as Carl Casanova used untill recently. Good things about them; they're not very expensive, they ride nice (far better reaction than any steel spring) and since they're light, they don't cost a lot to ship although you're probably not driving the Camaro anyhow the next couple of months, right??? BTW, I have a container shipment that'll leave LA mid January so if you would like to ride along just let me know and we'll work something out.

Cheers,

[camaro427-69]

we´d rather meet up in the middle at nurburg-ring :)

[neki67]

we´d rather meet up in the middle at nurburg-ring :)

Well, there are more members interested in a meeting at the Nürburgring. Have a look at this thread: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?84912-PT-muscle-cars-in-Europe-What-s-it-like-there

[Gitter Dun]

I'm not sure how much track time and tuning you do but once again I want to express the importance of the watts link and the leaf springs being as close to each other in roll center as possible. This will be especially important if you are running sticky tires and alot of torque.

My motor puts out 560 ft/lbs of torque at 5000 RPM and having the watts pivot in the wrong location rear steered my car even in a straight line. Exwest Racer is correct. do not worry so much about the angle of the arms. Match the roll centers!!

The Fays 2 watts is a great product and does exactly what it is supposed to when installed and tuned correctly.

From looking at your pic's it does look like you will need to raise the leafs to match the watts. If you intend on racing or spending track time try and not go thicker than 1" lowering block. If you are going to run lowered leafs pm me and I will give you more details.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[camaro427-69]

sent you an email gaetano. i think we´ll stay in touch about the ring rené :)

[rustomatic]

I'm just loving the functionality of this thread--it's the kind of application-specific stuff that gives this site good credibility... Keep it up, folks!

On the mounting of the frame brackets on the Fays2, I'm not sure, but was it indicated that the unit was not mounted fully up on the frame rails? When I installed my Maier Panhard setup, I had to beat the snot out of the trunk floor in front of the tank to get the thing all the way on the rails. I think the Fays2 might require a similar experience, in case this hasn't happened yet. This would definitely have an effect (negative) on both the height of the unit and its ability to support the lateral loads; I'd also suggest welding that thing in, in case you haven't. Just saying...

[Gitter Dun]

You dont want to weld a Fays 2 watts link in. The frame rails on a first gen are only about 16 gauge and over 40 years old. I gaurantee if it was welded in that the frame rails would crack unless reinforced or changed out.

I know a few guys that have welded G-link suspensions to their first Gens(when it calls out to bolt it in at frame rail) and their frame rails cracked.

[camaro427-69]

update.......i installed my new faf leafs with 2"drop and placed some weight into the trunk to simulate the gas tank weight. the car wasn´t seated yet but i don´t think it would drop way more after a few days. the bars were adjusted to the same length. does the axle mount does have to look straight backwards or can i turn it a little upward to get the angle of the bars more similar? can i leave it like that?55666

[Gitter Dun]

That looks alot better. I think the axle mount should match the leaf pad mount. It looks like you could drop down one more knotch. Try and get it as close as possible and then take her for a spin. Try a couple of rolling launches. If the car stays straight you should be good. If it vears to one side you haven't matched the leaf roll center.

[JRouche]

update.......i installed my new faf leafs with 2"drop and placed some weight into the trunk to simulate the gas tank weight. the car wasn´t seated yet but i don´t think it would drop way more after a few days. the bars were adjusted to the same length. does the axle mount does have to look straight backwards or can i turn it a little upward to get the angle of the bars more similar? can i leave it like that?55666

Oh YES!! It looks much better. The arms look better and the RC height looks better.

The right side arms looks a lil odd, like it has more of an angle? And I forget, but I dont think that matters? As long as the arms are the same length?

It been too long since I have worked on my watts link I kinda forgot. In one ear out the other, use it or loose it. And I think I lost it but here goes.

The watts link relies on the arms being equal because of the radius that the arms travel. There are two radius's that are key. The radius on the outer arms and the inner arms. So it makes sense the arms need to be of equal length. Otherwise one arm will move faster (or slower) for suspension travel if they are not the same length.

But as far as angle for the arms? Should they be at the same but opposite (180 degrees out) angle or is the angle of the arms a non issue? I think NOT. I think they should be at the same angle. Why???

The bell crank will be a constant. Its the starting point lets say. It has a fixed rotation and radius, it doesnt change for suspension travel. But the outside mounts for the arms are the variable.

So picture the outer arm mounts as being the variable during suspension travel. Again, its a radius motion. If one side is at its middle (9 O-clock for the left side and 3:20 O-clock for the right side) point at rest, at ride height , like the picture shows.

Visualize the movement during suspension travel. Lets look at compression. The right side arm already looks like its past the 90 degree mark so it will pull faster than the left side which is at the 90 degree point. Get it. The right side arm is already past the 90 degree point and the further you go from that as the arm rotates it rotates faster. The left side is in "dwell" at ride height while the right side is in a motion position. Put the suspension in travel, say compression, the right side is gaining pull on the bar already when the left side is just coming off of the "dwell" point or the null point.

Its about circles, radius's. When you are at the center of the circle (there are only two of them for suspensions) then the motion is small. Once you move off one of the two points the arms are in motion. There are two dwell points on any suspension links. You wont ever see all the points. But most suspensions will travel through at least one of them during travel. Control arms, trailing arms and even steering arms (umm bumpsteer is one).

I like to set up my suspension so ALL the links at ride height are at the "null" point. Meaning the links are at the 90 degree point and any travel will be plus or minus from that point. It makes for a very predictable ride.

Solly!! I strayed. Um watts links. Same thing.

It might be the picture but it looks like the right side is already on the rotation for compression. Its gonna try to pull the right side over faster then the left side. What will happen? Not sure. I think its not balanced... JR

[Pabst]

i think the outside of the right link needs to go up till it is parallel and poof, it's fixed. it looks like it's pointing out parallel with the ground and i dont think it should be. turn it upwards and the links will become parallel.

[camaro427-69]

ok thanks a lot guys. i hope to work out the right adjustments as soon as i can hit the road but for now it´s still winter time ;)

[exwestracer]

Just make sure that the links ARE the same length, and the vertical distance between the 2 axle mounts is the same as the distance between the mounting points on the bellcrank; and you are good to go. If the bellcrank mounts are 5" apart, then the right side axle mount needs to be 5" above the left side.

The links do NOT have to be parallel, and the bellcrank does not have to be straight.

[camaro427-69]

okeeeeee :) gonna check that out. now it´s already 3 days since installation and the leafs should be seated.
thanks ray!