65 gto can not align

[crustysack]

I posted this in the wheel tire forum with no response so I will try here( should have tried here first)
65 GTO 2" CPP drop spindles Global West tublar control arms, QA1 coil overs and 15" Ralley II wheels with 235/60's- I have been driving it without having it aligned since I finished the build- the car drove straight. I finally bring it to my friends shop for the alignment (on a Hawkeye rack) and he cant align it. He can set the toe, but the camber can not be set properly with out hitting the inside of the fender at the top of the tire. can this be a backspacing issue- or can I correct this problem by changing the backspacing. or maybe there is a different spindle I should have got?? any help is always greatly appreciated

[dhutton]

How much camber are you trying to align it for? Hopefully your friend is not trying to align it to the factory specs.

[Roadbuster]

Are trying to do a factory alignment or a new spec one? Factory alignment spec are bass ackwards from what it should be.
For a '68 (the only ref I have) the factory numbers are -1.5 deg castor, +0.25 deg camber and 1/8" toe.
You want something that has positive castor and negative camber.
What are CPP's specs for their spindles or Global West's?

[crustysack]

interesting -I did not know the alignment specs would be different- I will check with both CPP and Global to see what they say- another reason I love this site -folks that share crucial info without making me feel stupid :cheers:

[exwestracer]

Are trying to do a factory alignment or a new spec one? Factory alignment spec are bass ackwards from what it should be.
For a '68 (the only ref I have) the factory numbers are -1.5 deg castor, +0.25 deg camber and 1/8" toe.
You want something that has positive castor and negative camber.
What are CPP's specs for their spindles or Global West's?

Wow, not to argue, but that caster number does not sound right. I wonder if the factory looks a negative caster as being toward the rear? Hard to believe, but so is a negative setting...

Now, before we get into a huge discussion about performance alignment specs... How hard are you realistically gonna push this thing? Those Firehawks are not really a performance tire or size, so the alignment numbers you'd need to optimize them for handling aren't going to be anywhere near what you would want for long tread life...

As far as the physical clearance issue goes, keep in mind that is one of the "wide track" Pontiac designs. They didn't leave much clearance for wider wheels, different offsets, etc.

Did you have to change wheel offset or run spacers to clear the steering arm or Global West LCA with the drop spindles? When you put the parts on, did you have to make any major tie rod adjustments to get the toe close?

[crustysack]

This car is more cruiser type, not taken to the track at all, and it is a daily driver so I would be looking more towards longer tread life than out right performance.I am going to up the wheel size to a 17 this winter with some slightly more aggressive tires .
I did NOT have to make any modifications,everything bolted together smoothly when I assembled the front suspension. Nothing scrapes or hits or binds up- except the outer edge of the tire when I turn and go over a good size bump. I mean I have seen these cars run 20's with the tire tucked up into the fender well how is that achieved??Are the control arms set father inboard on the frame? (if you haven't noticed yet I'm not a pro when it comes to some of these things so excuse my ignorance)should I be running a slimmer tire? Are these control arms meant to have the top of the tire leaned in so when you load it up through a corner the tire straightens out??:confused:

[dhutton]

Try something like .25 degrees of negative camber. It might make a significant difference in the rubbing. A few degrees of positive caster wouldn't hurt either. There is no need to run the factory settings, suspension knowledge has advanced quite a lot in the past 45 years.

[exwestracer]

This car is more cruiser type, not taken to the track at all, and it is a daily driver so I would be looking more towards longer tread life than out right performance.I am going to up the wheel size to a 17 this winter with some slightly more aggressive tires .
I did NOT have to make any modifications,everything bolted together smoothly when I assembled the front suspension. Nothing scrapes or hits or binds up- except the outer edge of the tire when I turn and go over a good size bump. I mean I have seen these cars run 20's with the tire tucked up into the fender well how is that achieved??Are the control arms set father inboard on the frame? (if you haven't noticed yet I'm not a pro when it comes to some of these things so excuse my ignorance)should I be running a slimmer tire? Are these control arms meant to have the top of the tire leaned in so when you load it up through a corner the tire straightens out??:confused:

Well, that's the thing...if you lean the top of the tire in, it is going to handle better and have more fender clearance, BUT you are going to sacrifice treadwear because the inside edge will be gone in no time. A little negative camber (as dhutton suggested) won't hurt much, but it won't help the clearance issue much either... I think .25-.5 deg negative camber would be ok, as those tires will squirm around a lot anyway... Try about 2-3 deg positive caster (the caster adjustment may fix the camber problem anyway with the amount of shims the shop will have to add).

BTW, I just gotta tell you that is one effin beautiful car...

[UMI Tech]

Hey Crusty. I second Ray's motion of how awesome your car looks. My dad had one of these back in '65, 389 Tri-Power...

[BMR Tech]

I posted this in the wheel tire forum with no response so I will try here( should have tried here first)
65 GTO 2" CPP drop spindles Global West tublar control arms, QA1 coil overs and 15" Ralley II wheels with 235/60's- I have been driving it without having it aligned since I finished the build- the car drove straight. I finally bring it to my friends shop for the alignment (on a Hawkeye rack) and he cant align it. He can set the toe, but the camber can not be set properly with out hitting the inside of the fender at the top of the tire. can this be a backspacing issue- or can I correct this problem by changing the backspacing. or maybe there is a different spindle I should have got?? any help is always greatly appreciated

As Roadbuster pointed out, OE alignemnet specs are not really recommended in todays times, especially for late model radials and aftermarket suspension parts. OE specs use very little caster and positive camber. If you have power steering I would run as much positive caster as you can get and about .25 degrees of negative camber. Your Global West arms should already have 3 degrees of positive caster built into them if I am not mistaken so your alignment techinician may have actually had to stagger the shims oppositely (from the norm) just to achieve the OE caster specs. I doubt that you need a different offset wheel, it sounds like either a part incompatability or an alignment issue. I would post your alignment sheet so we can see where you are and make recommendations based off those specs.

On a side note, some spindles and A-arms are just not compatible with each other. Some manufacturers alter the inclination angle of the spindle which can effect the ability to be aligned, especially when other brands of product are used. I know that Heidts spindles and Global West upper A-arms are not compatible. I would check with Global West to see if there are any other known compatability issues.

[CFster]

I mean I have seen these cars run 20's with the tire tucked up into the fender well how is that achieved??Are the control arms set father inboard on the frame? (if you haven't noticed yet I'm not a pro when it comes to some of these things so excuse my ignorance)should I be running a slimmer tire? Are these control arms meant to have the top of the tire leaned in so when you load it up through a corner the tire straightens out??:confused:

Nice car.

Some people (like me) go with a taller upper ball joint or spindle like an AFX (what I did), to correct the backwards factory camber curve. So now, under compression the top of the wheel tilts in, instead of out.

[John Wright]

Any additional caster will help the steering wheel find center, and give a little heavier feel to the steering. The factory, overboosted, steering is so easy that it isn't all that fun to drive fast, and masks any steering feedback that you should be getting from the front tires.

[Skip Fix]

"BUT you are going to sacrifice treadwear because the inside edge will be gone in no time"

Depends how much body roll he gets-might make the tire be straight up.

[exwestracer]

"BUT you are going to sacrifice treadwear because the inside edge will be gone in no time"

Depends how much body roll he gets-might make the tire be straight up.

Driving straight ahead??? He said it was a cruiser... How much of the time are we really using that camber gain on the street?

[CFster]

A side benefit of more positive caster is more negative camber when turning, but not when travelling straight. The only drawback to too much positive caster is heavy steering as was already said, and in extreme cases a high speed wobble (think shopping cart).

[crustysack]

thanks for all the info I will be trying to get over to the shop this weekend and see what we can work out-i will call GW today and see if my spindles are compatible and if they offer specs- again guys thanks for all the eye-opening info and also the compliments on my car- She has an 02 LS1 w/m6, the aforementioned suspension mods, 06 GTO seats, and a ton of carbon fiber parts-some more pics here https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81609-65-GTO-LS1-quot-Carbon-Copy-quot&highlight=65+gto
just got off the phone with Global West and they said "Oh theres NOOO WAYYYY you'll get close to oe specs with this setup. Heres what he gave me
5 1/2 degrees positive caster passenger side
5 degrees positive caster drivers side
1/2 degree negative camber both sides
3/32 toe in
and then called my buddy and he said they would have tried oe specs if I had not supplied anything else- hopefully get this done by next week- thanks again for the info and enlightenment :cheers:

[BMR Tech]

Let us know how it goes!