GM A-Body Budget Ebay Tubular Control Arms...Have you used them?? Feedback??

[BBSkylark]

To start out this is my first post on "pro-touring.com" and I'd like to say Hi. I am currently in the planning stage / start of the build of my 1970 Buick GS (GM A-Body), I am planning on a mild pro touring build with minimal auto-x sessions... It will have a Big Block Buick, 5 or 6 speed, 18's, relatively wide tires and stance to match.

Right now I am looking to build a suspension on a budget for my car and have had a hard time finding some feedback from people who have actually purchased and used these tubular control arms? For those of you who have used them could you please take a few min to answer the questions I have below?

Are they as bad as everybody preaches?

What made you buy them?

Are you going to be replacing them with another aftermarket brand? If so why?

Did you use the provided ball joints or opt to change them before installation? If you used the provided ones how have they fared?

Did your car align properly after the control arm installation?

Was there a difference in handling?

I really do not want this to become another flame thread with everybody saying why would you buy these... your ruining the economy buying offshore junk ect ect...:nopity: Please keep it civil and just state the facts, if you have not had first hand experience with them and you would like to comment please make it clear that you have not used them.

That being said I look froward to the conversation and am interested to hear any feedback on these and other suspension components that would make good budget pieces toward my build!

Thanks a bunch!!

[Vicinity]

No experience, but they're made (and welded) in China.

Never had a good experience in quality control from China. I'm not even sure they have a standard for weld quality (bad welds + 100 mph = you dead).

Call Frank at Prodigy, he can help you out in making a choice for a good, SAFE match.

[dontlifttoshift]

welcome to the forum! You have asked a lot of good questions and most of the answers can be found in the linked threads. given your location I would likely call and talk to Marcus at SC&C. His posts on here are informative and invaluable and it seems he wrote the book (at least one of them) on pro-touring.

There is this one https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?82821-Ebay-Upper-and-Lower-arms-vs-Global-West&highlight=ebay+control+arms

and this https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?83276-Summit-tubular-control-arms&highlight=ebay+control+arms

and this one is almost two years old https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?64589-Tubular-control-arms-!!&highlight=ebay+control+arms

so now we don't have to rehash it again.

[BBSkylark]

Thanks for the info. I have read the threads that you linked to "dontlifttoshift" but really have not found the concrete answers that I was looking for from people that have in the past or are currently using the product. The information that I keep finding is from people that speculate against or towards the product without having first hand contact with it.

I dont believe its rehashing something that was brought up in the past, im just trying to trim the fat and get first hand responses from product users. That is what I am looking for the most out of this thread.

Thanks for the information though! I will give Marcus a shout and pick his brain regarding suspension for these vehicles.

[dontlifttoshift]

In my experience most of the guys that use those parts bought them because of the price and will tell you that they worked fine. In the whole scheme of things the money saved is really minimal compared to total investment in a pro touring car.

If an STi was in my garage, I would want my Buick to be better than that..

good luck with your project.

Donny

[Hotchkis]

BBSkylark - Welcome to Pro-Touring.com! This is a good topic. It's been brought up a few times on multiple forums. We're interested in seeing if anyone responds to your questions. We have a feeling most of the members who have had bad experiences with the EBay arms might not be willing to share their stories here.

Be careful when purchasing cheap control arms from from eBay sellers without a physical store front. They don't have a reputation to uphold more than keeping their eBay account in good standing. We've seen some very scary control arms come into our shop for replacement.

One failure of a questionable weld or incorrect material when driving on the street or at freeway speeds could be disasterous for you, your car, and the lives of others.

[RobNoLimit]

Here's my 2 cents. There are a lot of quality companies making good working parts. Most of these are out at events, such as Goodguys, Run to the ---, and Super Chevy, running autocross and road coarse events to show how there parts work. These events are also test beds for product deveopment, and improvement. You never see "Cheepo's Net Sales" at an autocross proving the performance/quality of there parts. Also, these companies that do compete, pay $$$, in sponsorship, show fees.... In fact, they are supporting the very shows that you are building a car for. It makes sense to spend your bucks with the companies the are willing to put-up, and prove there worth, and not the ones that are pirating from our hobby. Maybe that was 3 cents.

[bret]

Its not about the money...it's just...not. You are paying for a reputable companies expertise and the comfort in knowing that they have discarded all the versions of their product that didn't work. You're also paying for the inevability that they will develop someting even cooler/faster/less expensive for you to lust after. If it's really about the price...just leave your stock control arms on the car. They've lasted this long...

Yes...I have personally examined ALL kinds of control arms...name brand, low cost, chinese...in general you get what you pay for. In general, the name brands are solidly built [design is a subjective opinion of the expert dejour]. The low cost arms lack some of the detail refinements...and the imported no-name arms appear to suffer from both quality and design shortcomings.
I probably would not care so much except that it might be my wife and kids in the oncoming lane when one of those shortcomings shows itself.

With all of the SFI/DOT/FVMSS safety regulations that abound, I'm somewhat surprised that suspension compoents have avoided the neccessity of being certified in some form. THEN watch the prices climb.

As a test of a companies dedication to product design and manufacture...ask them for a copy of their product liability insurance.

[SparkyRnD]

We have a feeling most of the members who have had bad experiences with the EBay arms might not be willing to share their stories here.......because the parts failed, they crashed and are no longer around to warn us

I think I fixed that quote for you!

[Twentyover]

It's not possible for me to answer your question,but I will respond. First,I have not used unbranded control arms. I have used Hotchkiss, Global West, SPC, and maybe a couple others.

You refer to eBay Tubular Control Arms as if there was an eBay suspension company that made parts. .There is not.The arms being sold on ebay may be made in any one of a number of factories in China, India, SE Asia, or even in the US. The seller is usually not the manufacturer, he's usually reselling a product that he contracted to have built. It may be his own design, but most likely is a knockoff of one of the name manufacturer's products.So far I've said nothing new.

The big deal for me is most resellers have no idea about quality control or validating product quality. They assume you send a part to someone and they reverse engineer it, when in fact the contact house will usually just try to copy the appearance. The reseller doesn't know how to specify the weld schedule, raw material requirements,process controls,etc.

I have the good fortune to work (and the occasional bad fortune to be unemployed in) the automotive industry. I currently work as a product release engineer for one of the 'Big Three'. When I worked in the supplier base, we would get a material cert for- I'll use the example of extruded aluminum bar stock. The cert came with composition limits as established by the Aluminum Association, along with actual laddle composition from a sample taken from the pour. That cert traveled with the billets from that pour at the foundry to the extruder , who provided us with 12 ft lengths of 62mm bar. We turned this bar into caps for aluminum A/C Receiver Driers.We could track the cert to lot numbers of the heads, and then to build dates for completed R/D Assemblies.If we were to get a return part,we could track material back to the original pour, process verification back to lot testing, and design back to validation testing, the DVP&R & PPAP. Remember this is for a part that is comfort related , not in general safety related. This is the life and requirements for a quality Tier 1 supplier

As a release engineer at the OEM, I have a list of product validations that are required prior to hanging a part on a car. In my case, pressure cycling, vibration durability, functional life- these are just a few of the durability specifications, we're not even talking about functional performance requirements.

I would expect name brand suppliers to do this, albiet on a much smaller scale. Establish raw material composition and standards ( OD, Min wall, tube type- Seamless, DOM, ERW?). Weld schedule that will guarantee adequate penetration, etc.

I look at stuff made offshore- we use it at my employer's place. We specify and test the crap out of it, and we still occasionally get it wrong and have quality spills.


Now my question in response to your question- How much of this do you think the armchair reseller does? How much do you think he even knows about? I can't say his stuff won't fail,but do you believe he has any reliability or confidence interval testing that suggests it won't?



Finally, addressing your question about difference in handling- if there are no other changes than the control arms, there is no reason to expect a difference in handling. The dirty little secret that less scrupulous reseller don't mention is that unless pivot geometry changes (and control arms themselves aren't able to do that), there is no change in handling

[online170]

Welcome to the board! Your descriptions and history seem identical to mine :) We went to school for the same thing, and are building the same car. Where abouts in ON are you?

[drc270]

Welcome...
I personally used the e-bay budget arms on my 69 camaro build. It was the only corner I cut on the entire
project and I regret it.
Original price aprox. 400.00
2 thousand miles 2 ball joints failed, new b/js 150.00 plus the time to tear it all apart and rebuild.
3 thousand miles bushing failure that was enough for me so I ordered Global west arms
All said, the budget arms cost me more in the long run in time , frustration, parts and alignments.
There is a reason why they are CHEAP.

[BBSkylark]

It's not possible for me to answer your question,but I will respond. First,I have not used unbranded control arms. I have used Hotchkiss, Global West, SPC, and maybe a couple others.

You refer to eBay Tubular Control Arms as if there was an eBay suspension company that made parts. .There is not.The arms being sold on ebay may be made in any one of a number of factories in China, India, SE Asia, or even in the US. The seller is usually not the manufacturer, he's usually reselling a product that he contracted to have built. It may be his own design, but most likely is a knockoff of one of the name manufacturer's products.So far I've said nothing new.

The big deal for me is most resellers have no idea about quality control or validating product quality. They assume you send a part to someone and they reverse engineer it, when in fact the contact house will usually just try to copy the appearance. The reseller doesn't know how to specify the weld schedule, raw material requirements,process controls,etc.

I have the good fortune to work (and the occasional bad fortune to be unemployed in) the automotive industry. I currently work as a product release engineer for one of the 'Big Three'. When I worked in the supplier base, we would get a material cert for- I'll use the example of extruded aluminum bar stock. The cert came with composition limits as established by the Aluminum Association, along with actual laddle composition from a sample taken from the pour. That cert traveled with the billets from that pour at the foundry to the extruder , who provided us with 12 ft lengths of 62mm bar. We turned this bar into caps for aluminum A/C Receiver Driers.We could track the cert to lot numbers of the heads, and then to build dates for completed R/D Assemblies.If we were to get a return part,we could track material back to the original pour, process verification back to lot testing, and design back to validation testing, the DVP&R & PPAP. Remember this is for a part that is comfort related , not in general safety related. This is the life and requirements for a quality Tier 1 supplier

As a release engineer at the OEM, I have a list of product validations that are required prior to hanging a part on a car. In my case, pressure cycling, vibration durability, functional life- these are just a few of the durability specifications, we're not even talking about functional performance requirements.

I would expect name brand suppliers to do this, albiet on a much smaller scale. Establish raw material composition and standards ( OD, Min wall, tube type- Seamless, DOM, ERW?). Weld schedule that will guarantee adequate penetration, etc.

I look at stuff made offshore- we use it at my employer's place. We specify and test the crap out of it, and we still occasionally get it wrong and have quality spills.


Now my question in response to your question- How much of this do you think the armchair reseller does? How much do you think he even knows about? I can't say his stuff won't fail,but do you believe he has any reliability or confidence interval testing that suggests it won't?



Finally, addressing your question about difference in handling- if there are no other changes than the control arms, there is no reason to expect a difference in handling. The dirty little secret that less scrupulous reseller don't mention is that unless pivot geometry changes (and control arms themselves aren't able to do that), there is no change in handling

Twentyover, thank you very much for the response. Being as I have worked in the engineering and quality department of a Tier 1 auto supplier for "The Big 3" (and more) I am fully aware of the direction that you are coming from. In the past I have had the privilege to visit and tour a few "aftermarket" name brand factories that supply performance parts to the automotive industry (I will keep them nameless). I have found that the quality procedure for OEM pieces from a first hand experience outweighs the aftermarket 100-1! Sure they have basic quality control measures but the process and strict guidelines that the larger manufactures require are simply not there... Yes testing is done on the pieces but just the basics (ie. weld penetration, tensile strength, part conformity ect...) basically if the part is strong and looks like the design then its good.

I also understand that if the design of the related piece is not changed the handling characteristics will not be affected. The control arms that I was specifically looking at had 5 degrees of castor added to them, I guess I should have been more clear as to "wondering" did the control arms add the 5 degrees of castor +/- to a certain tolerance of course and provide an improvement in the handling characteristics of the car?

All that being said that is great information that you have provided for somebody who does not have a background in the industry and thank you very much for responding.


Welcome to the board! Your descriptions and history seem identical to mine :) We went to school for the same thing, and are building the same car. Where abouts in ON are you?

I'm in Southern Ontario about 6 hours away from you. I have seen you post in other forums such as v8buick :) Its going to be a while before I get my car on a road but its been 8 years already so whats another few lol... At least its progress!

[MCB Matt]

They break, we have seen/heard of it! Save your $$$ and buy US made arms, we carry several. This topic has been brought up so many times, if you only knew how cheap those arms arw to buy from china you would never run them. No tech support, no REAL warranty, no good testing done.....

[coolwelder62]

Buy,American made product's.Keep our fellow american's working.Remember What go's around come's around.

[Phillip Steele]

Ya I got suckered into buying the front upper and lower tubular control units. Let me tell you that they are nothing but junk! I had a 69 Skylark (loved that car). I now own a 67 Impala ( B body)which I put these on.
First off the bumper pad compleatly disintergrated while I was putting the units on. the lower spring coil seats fell apart. I had to replace them with Global West parts. With a 2 Inch drop spindle I had to grind the end off the lower to get it to turn.
As I was putting on the upper ball joint the shaft spun coming out of the ball joint. I had to replace the bumpers ,lower coilspring seats,upper ball joints. I am in the process of getting lower ball joints. According to Global West these units are Chinese knockoff JUNK!!! AVOID THEM AT ALL COSTS!!!!! Spend the money and get a good set. You will have a better unit with good quality control. I can tell which one are junk by the color. The junk one color look like puke red versus a bright red on the Gobal West stuff.
Plus it is American made.

[Bonehead]

Just my own personal opinion here, but I don't build cars to save money on cheap stuff. If I cant afford it, I wait till I can or go another route. With all the quality US made manufacturers and some who are sponsors here, that's where my investment is going.