Pro Touring Suspension

[mlcurl]

Does any one have experience with the suspension kits from Pro-TouringF-body.com? Budget wise it seems great but I don't want to spend money on something that doesn't work.

[srh3trinity]

I am probably going to go with their upper control arms but I don't have any personal experience just yet.

[prosuperstar]

Be prepared to wait for your parts. I ordered a set of lower control arms over 3 months ago and still havent recieved them.

[ProdigyCustoms]

They use VERY aggresive spring rates. I prefer the ride and overall handling of Hotchkis stuff personally

[zombiekiller]

the kits dont seem to come with much for what you are paying. I also dont see a listed wall thickness on the control arms.

Suspension is always one of those facets of car building in which you really get what you pay for, especially if you are not doing a fair amount of your own engineering and fab work.

[mlcurl]

I'd love to go with the Hotchkis stuff but they are almost twice the price I really only have about 2k to spend on suspension right now. I am trying to get some sort of balanced setup front and rear. Would I be better off working on one end only? Right now the car is a completely stock basket case so it needs about everything. By the way it is a 71 Camaro so I seem to have a few less choices than the first GEN guys.

[BMR Sales]

By the way it is a 71 Camaro so I seem to have a few less choices than the first GEN guys.


We offer quite a few products for 1970-81 F-Bodies. Actually most customers build thie cars one area at a time. What are wanting to do with the car primarily?




70-81 F-Bodies

[Nothingface5384]

I say get spc for upper/lower control arms and pro-touring fbody sfc,chassis bar and body mounts, and get the hotchkis 3-link torque arm rear setup thats comming out in a month or so

[73RSZ28]

I have the PTFB GT kit front and rear with his matched shocks. Ride height is perfect. Suspension is pretty stiff as mentioned above. I don't have any complaints. I also have his sub frame connnectors and solid frame bushings. Those did more improvement than anything. I would definitely start there. My next move is big brakes and control arms.

[mlcurl]

Do the PTFB control arms add camber like the Hotchkis stuff?

[Twentyover]

Do the PTFB control arms add camber like the Hotchkis stuff?

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?83006-True-benefits-of-swapping-to-tubular-control-arms

Please read and understand post 5.

After market control arms don't add camber- your alignment can add camber. Aftermarket arms can change caster, but the big advantage of some aftermarket arms is the ability use different spindles and ball joints to improve camber gain in roll.

[mlcurl]

Ok I read the post and I'm sorry I mis spoke, I should have asked if they have improved geometry or are they just tubular remakes of stock arms. My point is: Will their design allow for improved alignment and performance like the Hotchkis stuff? Are they built such that they are stronger than stock parts? In other words are they worth adding to a build?

[sales@jcg]

I would hold off until you have the money to purchase quality suspension components. Suspension, brakes etc. since you are intrusting your life and others with them. We never cut corners on these areas for that fact... there are other areas like pain, wheels, interior that you can trim cost here and there

[Twentyover]

No need to apologize. Aftermarket control arms are up there with cams as being the most mis-advertised and therefore misunderstood aftermarket products. Fortunately, the sponsors here as a rule strive for accuracy (I've never felt any of them tried to mislead or BS us.)

I'm running a few pieces from Pro Touring F body on my car, and called and asked about some of the arms he was selling. He honestly answered my questions. If you have a question, he's only a phone call away. As him, give him the opportunity to answer. He'll know more about his product than anyone on this board.

[Henesian]

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?83006-True-benefits-of-swapping-to-tubular-control-arms

Please read and understand post 5.

After market control arms don't add camber- your alignment can add camber. Aftermarket arms can change caster, but the big advantage of some aftermarket arms is the ability use different spindles and ball joints to improve camber gain in roll.
That's bull****. Aftermarket control arms add camber, because the arms are shorter than the stock arms and the added positive caster statically makes it easier to increase the static negative camber with the same amount of shims.

[JRouche]

All the talk about static camber is kinda off the mark I think.

Static camber and caster are just that, STATIC.. But suspensions are far from being static. They are dynamic. So to get the full picture for how a certain suspension setup acts while driving you HAVE to look at the dynamic changes that a set of control arms goes through.

I have a very wide range of static adjustments for my control arms. And I can dial in what looks like a great static alignment. But then when I run the suspension through its entire range of travel the dynamic part, it fails. Not a big fail, but not what I want for camber gain and overall camber and caster changes during body roll and suspension movement.

And that brings up one other point. Its really hard to check for dynamic suspension numbers (camber and caster changes) in the garage. You have to remove the springs or have some springs like I have (air springs). Then its still a process of moving the suspension through its range, at lil at a time and check your camber and caster. I have a simple alignment jig (its very accurate) for checking caster, camber and toe.

So as I moved the suspension through the travel (I was only checking the compression side of travel, thats gonna be the loaded tire in a turn) I documented the caster, camber and toe for every inch of compression. I was very surprised!!

I wanted a lot of caster and only about .5 degrees of - camber at ride height. So messing around with the numbers, arm lengths (for the upper arms), arm location (again, uppers) I found that I had to dial the caster down some to keep the camber curve consistent. And REALLY!! A consistent camber curve is what you want. You dont want the camber curve flip flopping (worst case) or non-linear. You want to get the camber change (in my case it is camber gain, more neg camber) to be as linear as possible. You dont want it jumping from say -.5 or -1 degree of camber at a static ride height then jumping to -2 degrees in the first inch of compression. And then seeing only -.5 degrees for the next inch of compression and even lower for the next inch.

I was shooting for 1 degree of neg camber gain for every inch of compression. I got it, or pretty darn close to it. What was screwing it up? The caster I chose. I have read high and low for issues concerning too much caster and didnt find much besides that it will stiffen up the steering and some tire scrub in tight turns like parking lots. Not a problem for me. And I have read alot of books and none of them commented on any negative issues with some large caster numbers for handling.

I dont know why because there is a trade off, just like ANY suspension change. With the high caster (I think I was at 7*) the camber change during suspension travel was very erratic. I think I had to bring the caster down to 3* to get close to 1* per 1 inch of compression. I forget the exact numbers, its ALL written down on a build sheet though. And the build sheet is actually many sheets. I have three sheets of paper documenting what changes I made and what the camber profile was.

I have adjustable upper arms (SPC) and my mounts were made inward for a reason. So I use shims for the overall placement of the arms and I can adjust them for length also. So I can move the arms in and out, keeping the arm length the same or change the arm length. AND shift the arms forward or backward with offset shims OR a change in length for the adjustable arms individually. SO many available adjustments its silly. But thats what I wanted.

And whats even more funny is the correct setup ended up being NOT a large caster number!! I thought there was no down side to using a large caster number but there IS!! It throws off the camber gain..

One more thing I should add. You cant just run the suspension up and down. At first I thought I could to get the numbers, trying to simulate the car in a turn. Nope. You need to move the frame (the car) also.

Yup. When a car is in a turn its frame is rotating. The frame is rotating so the control arms see it as a side to side (lateral) movement. More to the point why its hard to simulate road conditions while the car is in the garage. As you are driving into a turn the suspension moves but so does the frame. So sitting on the garage floor the frame is level, but it wont be on the road. The frame tilts and that will also change the overall camber and caster numbers.

So yeah, I also put that change in there. How? Well anchor one side of the frame and pull the other side up. My thinking was a base line of a maximum body roll of 5*. So during the first inch of suspension compression I would also induce .75* of body roll. So I would check the numbers without body (read frame) roll, then introduce the body roll to see how it changes the numbers. It changed it enough that it was worth figuring into the entire process.

As the frame rolled (the compression side) it would make the lower arms "appear shorter", they get pulled in, and the uppers would get pushed out as the frame rotates. Something you dont see when you do a "static" up and down suspension check.

But the thing is you DONT have to go though all the physical checking to come to a similar conclusion. There are ways to get to the same numbers. Computers are great, a few good programs out there now. A simple string board (string computer) too, they are also good to go. But both methods need some concrete numbers to make them work, and thats alot of work in itself, gathering all the numbers up.

Ok, so a long talk about suspensions? Yeah, its not as complicated as reading my post :D

I guess my final point might be that its better to go with a tried and true aftermarket part if they have done ALL the work for you and came to a conclusion what works best for your car. Thats the summary and I should put a "sub-post" to get to the meat of my post huh? LOL Wordy JR

[Twentyover]

That's bull****. Aftermarket control arms add camber, because the arms are shorter than the stock arms and the added positive caster statically makes it easier to increase the static negative camber with the same amount of shims.

And I can add positive caster and negative camber by adding a stack of shims between the cross-shaft and the crossmember. I'll stand by my statement that alignment controls camber (and caster, for that matter), and that the primary advantage of some aftermarket arms is the ability to use taller spindles or tall ball joints (changing roll center height and negative camber gain in roll.)

[Skip Fix]

My point is: Will their design allow for improved alignment and performance like the Hotchkis stuff?

Yes I had bought some of the upper arms for my drag car.with The same number of shims, as in minimal, it had 2 degree more negative camber -same spindle and ball joint also.I didn't need for a drag car so they came off and factory ones with Global bushing went on.

Greg I will disagree with you - the factory arms are very limited in the adjustment in postive caster and negative camber as the driver's side will hit the steering shaft before you get too much. So you can not adjust them just by alignment.A control arm already made shorter need less shims or with maxed out shims can give you more of both settings.

[bret]

2nd Gen F bodies have reasonably good geometry to start with...they don't need near the extra components that the 1st Gen cars do to drive and handle well. We offer tubular control arms and a rebound adjustable coil over package for $1650. You can use up to an 18x10 wheel with a 6" backspace and a 275/35-18 tire with no fender mods.

[Twentyover]

My point is: Will their design allow for improved alignment and performance like the Hotchkis stuff?

Yes I had bought some of the upper arms for my drag car.with The same number of shims, as in minimal, it had 2 degree more negative camber -same spindle and ball joint also.I didn't need for a drag car so they came off and factory ones with Global bushing went on.

Greg I will disagree with you - the factory arms are very limited in the adjustment in postive caster and negative camber as the driver's side will hit the steering shaft before you get too much. So you can not adjust them just by alignment.A control arm already made shorter need less shims or with maxed out shims can give you more of both settings.

If you want to know if a supplier's parts perform a function or not, call the supplier. I never purchase something like A-arms without talking to the manufacturer or a trusted reseller, to make sure the part does what I think it does, or he explains to my satisfaction why I really don't want it to occur.

A -2 degree change in camber is 5/16" with a 9" spindle.I have about 1/2" on my 70 Camaro, and could make more if I trimmed the upper pivot. I do think there seems to be too much focus on static camber in this thread. In every post I've said that the advantage of some aftermarket arms is positive caster and ability to use non-stock parts to improve negative camber gain. Not static camber.

Several have stated directly or indirectly that aftermarket arms are shorter.That may be in the case for parts they have, but aftermarket arms may also be longer to accommodate additional spindle or ball joint height. The may also have altered ball joint mounting plate angles to allow for these taller parts. They may also be exactly the same as stock (or as good a copy as the manufacturer could make for his price point.)

I guess the point is, first determine what it is you think you want the part(s) to do, select the part you want, contact the manufacturer, and have them, not me, not a competitor, answer your questions

[mlcurl]

I guess the point is, first determine what it is you think you want the part(s) to do, select the part you want, contact the manufacturer, and have them, not me, not a competitor, answer your questions


I understand what you are saying about contacting the manufacturer but I have my doubts that any manufacturer will be completely honest about the shortcomings of their parts. For me, it is nice to hear some information and reviews of people who have the parts and use them on a daily basis in real world situations rather than on a skid pad testing them.

[JD'sTT55]

2nd Gen F bodies have reasonably good geometry to start with...they don't need near the extra components that the 1st Gen cars do to drive and handle well. We offer tubular control arms and a rebound adjustable coil over package for $1650. You can use up to an 18x10 wheel with a 6" backspace and a 275/35-18 tire with no fender mods.

Bret that is some info I've been searching for. Is that with a stock subframe and spindle? If so any idea what the ride height was from lca mount to the ground?? That is the direction I'm looking towards on the front end and am looking for a baseline ride height for the front so I can match my 3 link rear suspension ride height to match.
Thanks Jeremy.

[79-TA]

People, just read the page!

http://www.pro-touringf-body.com/control_arms.html

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/10/Control_Arm_Ad556x254-1.jpg



My point is: Will their design allow for improved alignment and performance like the Hotchkis stuff?

Yes, the Pro-Touring F-body arms offer a greater range of adjustability for static negative camber and positive caster.

[opnwide]

I have their upper arms on my car. Using stock lowers. I was really looking for improved geometry as I'm not tracking the car or anything, but its nice to have. I swapped a arms due to clearance issues with my ex. plumbing. I used around 1/16-1/8" of shims on mine. The old a-arms had 1/4"+ of shims, and the geometry was probably still not as good.

[SLO_Z28]

These arms are of the highest quality. I have them on my car, Ive had them on my car since PTFB first started making them. Ive never had any issues with them. They perform EXTREEMLY well. They allow you to run a tall ball joint, something that you absolutely want to run. I am able to get about 5 degrees of caster with no shims with these arms.


I would hold off until you have the money to purchase quality suspension components. Suspension, brakes etc. since you are intrusting your life and others with them. We never cut corners on these areas for that fact... there are other areas like pain, wheels, interior that you can trim cost here and there

This product isnt cutting corners, it has THE best design for bushings IMO.


They use VERY aggresive spring rates. I prefer the ride and overall handling of Hotchkis stuff personally

Do you even know what their rates are? I ask because I know, and I don't think you do.

[SLO_Z28]

I understand what you are saying about contacting the manufacturer but I have my doubts that any manufacturer will be completely honest about the shortcomings of their parts. For me, it is nice to hear some information and reviews of people who have the parts and use them on a daily basis in real world situations rather than on a skid pad testing them.

Talk to Dave at PTFB. You'd be surprised how honest and open he is. His product is a everyman product, and he will explain where it fits in, in the big picture. Its not the best stuff, but it is the best bang for your buck.

[opnwide]

I agree. Dave (never met him) seems to be in this for the love of it-not the money. F-bodies are his passion, and he has just come up with a few products that work well and at a nice price.

[mlcurl]

opnwide & SLO_Z28,

Thanks so much for chiming in. This is the type of post I was hoping for...good or bad from someone who actually uses the parts. I appreciate anyones input but it is nice to hear from someone who has them. I need all the help I can get because I come from the street rod & drag race crowd and this will be my first attempt at something that handles. Are you running the entire kit from PTFB or just the upper arms? I am considering the whole package with the sway bars. I want to step up from the stock suspension but I need to keep the budget in check on this build so bang for the buck is what I need.

[73ta]

I'll let you all know, after the winter. I have purchased virtually every part he makes for suspension in the Comp version for my TA. Total suspension rebuild. Have most of the parts in hand and they are of very good quality. Here's to the winter project!

[SLO_Z28]

opnwide & SLO_Z28,

Thanks so much for chiming in. This is the type of post I was hoping for...good or bad from someone who actually uses the parts. I appreciate anyones input but it is nice to hear from someone who has them. I need all the help I can get because I come from the street rod & drag race crowd and this will be my first attempt at something that handles. Are you running the entire kit from PTFB or just the upper arms? I am considering the whole package with the sway bars. I want to step up from the stock suspension but I need to keep the budget in check on this build so bang for the buck is what I need.

Call him on the phone, be sure what you want before you buy it, and he will sell you a complete matched kit that will perform. He can match sway bar and spring rates front and rear, get shocks valved to the springs, and offer THE best a-arms on the market. I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything from him.

[SLO_Z28]

Not to derail too much, but where are you from in Lodi 73ta? I lived there for some time, dont think I ever saw the car at A+W or even around town? My parents still live in that sleepy town.

[musclecarmatt]

i have pretty much all dave's chassis bracing under my car........front bar and adjustable rear sway bars,G-braces,cowl brace,sway bar brace,subframe connectors,and solid body bushings.....top notch stuff and been running it a year and no problems at all......

[10Aniv]

Another satisfied customer of PTFB. Dave is great to talk to and we end up just bs'ing on the phone about cars. Not too many other places will do that. I know if I have an issue I can call and he will take care of it. So far all my suspension stuff is from him minus the coil overs. He actually recommended not getting them, and he sells them, but I really wanted them, maybe I will regret it later......

[73ta]

I've lived here all my life except for 4 years. I've had the TA since 1975. Been to the A&W a few times!

[LeighP]

I'm an agent for Dave (PTFB) in Australia, and I've used a large amount of his gear on my project.....haven't gone with the arms at this stage, but I've had long conversations on the parts.
Seems my take on it is the best solution is to use both upper and lower arms, as this will ensure the wheel centre line is correctly placed....as the arms deliver more caster by the top ball joint being further back and the lower ball joint being further forward (stated simply...I know theres more to it than that)....but thats how I interpreted what he said to me.
As to spring rates, Dave will be the first to tell you not to use too high a rate of spring on a road car....he told me he won't sell track/competiton rates to people for road use as it just doesn't work for a street driven car.
Very approachable guy who'll tell you what works and doesn't work......but he's a small operation and it can take a while to get the parts if they aren't on the shelf. I do know the economic downturn has made things difficult as it's put some of his suppliers and support services (powdercoaters etc) out of business, forcing him to track down new sources....all takes time.