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View Full Version : Ebay Upper and Lower arms vs Global West



Simmo
09-07-2011, 02:54 AM
I've been toying with installing tubular A arms on the El Camino to help out the geometry issues, but as I am on a budget checked out ebay to see whats on offer and came up with these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400203563039&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


49116


Cant go wrong with the price (shipping is going to be a killer though!) which of course begs the question of quality/you get what you pay for/costs of failure/death!? So I checked out what some name brands had to offer.

http://www.globalwest.net/64-72-a-body-front-end.html


49117


Follow the links as there are many more pics but you have to admit they look rather similar. I've worked in parts in a past life and this happens all the time, but ignoring the springs and inserts, there are some very expensive stickers here!

Aside from different coloured/material bushes in some cases, I wouldnt mind betting these are out of the same factory, or made off the same jig at least. You welding types may spot differences I cant but to me these seem like the way to go. He's sold 160 sets so I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has purchased his, or the GW product.

Add some tall balljoints and I reckon that'll complete the setup. :smoke:

SS PUNISHER
09-07-2011, 06:23 AM
How much are just the control arms with greasable bushings from GW? I tried to look that up but my computer is lickin the window again. lol, I suspect the price will be a bit closer....

61ragtop
09-07-2011, 10:09 AM
It too looked at some Global knock offs on ebay and after talking to some people on forums and the CEO of Global west via email I decided against getting the cheap version....
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=32958&page=2

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81695-Global-West-knock-off

Not any cheaper if you have to buy the parts all over again cause they dont have the right geometry or they send you over a cliff......IMHO.

Simmo
09-07-2011, 03:15 PM
Cheers for the links, I tried a few more search options and got some more opinions. Interesting that all who had purchased seemed to be happy (maybe all the not so happy ones are stuck down the bottom a cliff lol). They are a critical part, so I too cringe at the thought of losing control at the expense of cheap arms, but I'm also on a budget for this build so the cost/benefit analysis has to be carried out and I especially do not want to pay big bucks for stickers.

I'm all for American quality, however other countries including Asian ones can make good gear at a fair price. When I worked for a major Australasian parts company I learnt a fair bit about where this stuff comes from and what this stuff costs to make. Selling gear at RRP often made me feel sick, but thats the way it is. Yep the majority of stuff was made in Asia, but the failure rates were virtually non existant. Out of interest, in the US, how much of the OE replacement steering and suspension stuff at the main-line auto stores is non-US made? What do you think of the quality/value - honestly? What make of parts do you replace in your daily driver that transports your wife and kids?

I am overlooking the fact that these arms are kinda 'out the back of a truck' ebay sellers, not from your down the road auto store so thats where my concern lies. Do any of the main stores sell this type of cheap arm? I've been told personally by certain 'performance' suppliers over here that yes, in some cases their 'branded' part is made in a Chinese factory, passes their QC, and then carries their logo. So the identical part can be picked up at a considerable discount without their sticker - so not really getting what you pay for. I'm already forking out huge freight and customs bills, so I just dont want to give too much $ away!

Whoops got mildly off topic, but I applaud those of you who can afford to buy American made, can trust the quality, and support your country. 61ragtop - what did the CEO of GW have to say if you dont mind? It's just that those arms really do look identical - but maybe I'm wrong.

I'd be going with Howe joints either way so that eliminates one area of concern, and different bushing material is plentiful, however has anyone tested this type of arm for fatigue/strength etc?

dontlifttoshift
09-07-2011, 05:04 PM
You are not paying big bucks for stickers. You are paying big bucks for research and development instead of supporting companies that rob and duplicate.

dontlifttoshift
09-07-2011, 05:08 PM
To go a little further, if you are going to invest in "huge" shipping and customs costs, why not do it one time and buy quality parts from a quality manufacturer?

Simmo
09-07-2011, 06:26 PM
You are not paying big bucks for stickers. You are paying big bucks for research and development instead of supporting companies that rob and duplicate.

Thats a fair argument, one thats been done over and over. In this case my query is whether they are "knock offs", or a case of same manufacturer different vendor. I could'nt find a statement on the GW site noting their arms are US made? (I didnt look that hard) Correct me if I'm wrong? If they are US made then there's the difference, worth every penny to support your scene and country. On the other hand, if they are off the same run in China, I would like to save myself US$800. (I would pay double the price for the stickers, but nearly four times is pushing it lol)

So my question really is, are these arms made in the same factory? I see there are heaps of arms on the market that look similar, but to my eye these appear identical*, right down to the fluro blue washer underneath the castle nut on the UCA's. Spend some time zooming in on the pics in the links.

As I said in my post above, this happens in other parts of the world so I'd be surprised if the US was any different. So, good copy or same thing minus stickers?

*note:- differing bushes depending on what picture you look at.

BrianP
09-07-2011, 06:34 PM
Have you asked the seller where they are made? If they are made Offshore I would run like he!! away. I'm so tired of buying things that break about a month after I buy them and those are something that you definitely don't want breaking.

TnBlkC230WZ
09-07-2011, 07:19 PM
I too have purchased a few of the budget parts. Most have been replaced or were never installed because they don't fit. I run the GW upper arms on the road course and autocross courses. They are nice arms and It is a joy to know my car will not understeer and actually goes where it is pointed. GW has done the research and knows the alignment settings based on how the car is used. If you are on a budget and truly after performance and drivability, just get the upper arms. That is where most of the benefit is at.

Simmo
09-07-2011, 07:34 PM
I too have purchased a few of the budget parts. Most have been replaced or were never installed because they don't fit. I run the GW upper arms on the road course and autocross courses. They are nice arms and It is a joy to know my car will not understeer and actually goes where it is pointed. GW has done the research and knows the alignment settings based on how the car is used. If you are on a budget and truly after performance and drivability, just get the upper arms. That is where most of the benefit is at.

That's probably what will happen, this project only warrents arms if they are under $500ish, still be interested to know where GW's are made...

streetnova74
09-07-2011, 07:52 PM
How do you know those picture's they have are actually of the same ones you will receive? If I was going to have to pay that much for shipping, I would surely be buying quality parts.

Rod
09-07-2011, 08:02 PM
yes you're all right there is a point were we all need to worry about the imported parts,
but are all these manufactures parts made in the USA?? really I couldn't find made in the USA on the global west site about the control arms, or on CPP's site, or on SC&C Street-Comp arms, nope on speed techs arms also, even Hotchkis doesn't state their arms USA made, looks like DSE is the only USA made arm(stated on their site on the part) the others might be, they should just promote it more

SS PUNISHER
09-07-2011, 10:20 PM
It's called OUTSOURCING people!!! Labor and materials are cheaper overseas.... I believe there is tax benefits from importing goods also. Doesn't mean that quality is any lower, just that the profit margins are higher.... If it's a overseas company sellin overseas stuff then that's where you gotta be carefull!

There are alot of companies that sell the exact same product as their name brand as store brands. So you can get the high quality stuff just at a lower price.

I'm almost willing to bet that those arms are the exact same thing. There is always the chance that the seller is using a pic of GW arms and selling his own that arent even close. I would definatly contact the seller to get a little reasurance before buying.

Good luck with gettin some goodies!

dirtybird
09-08-2011, 06:27 AM
TOFTT and post an update! If you're not at the bottom of a cliff that is...

1969CamaroRS
09-08-2011, 07:59 AM
You are not paying big bucks for stickers. You are paying big bucks for research and development instead of supporting companies that rob and duplicate.

I think you are paying big bucks to not get cheap control arms that end up cracking on you because they went cheap on the metal so they could sell for so cheap. I don't think I would trust cheap Chinese knock-offs with such a critical item on my car. If they break, especially while driving at speed, its going to cost a lot more than just another set of control arms.

dontlifttoshift
09-08-2011, 08:14 AM
To the OP, it sounds like you are waiting for someone to post that they are from an independent lab and have tested all the control arms and the cheapest ones are by far the strongest and best performing and all of your opinions are indeed facts......not gonna happen.

I understand outsourcing. I think the proper terminology today is "private labeling". I just prefer to support those that support our hobby through sponsorship, show attendance, and/or new product development instead of the guy sitting in his living room in his underwear selling parts that he never sees or touches and will absolutely be unavailable when the product doesn't fit or just plain fails. That's all.

61ragtop
09-08-2011, 08:36 AM
When I was Contacted from global about it he told me they were having issues with these arms being sold from overseas. Issues have been lots of geometry problems and some Cracking. They know this due to people calling global trying to get warranty on them until asked for
Proof of purchase, where they bought them or see them and know they are not theirs.

Not worth any of it if you ask me. I was in the same boat as you but these "possible" issues are not worth the chance. It cost way More to do it twice than once the right way and you can't put a price on safety.

Simmo
09-08-2011, 05:00 PM
TOFTT and post an update! If you're not at the bottom of a cliff that is...

Haha dont need to mate, I've now had numerous PM's from people running them who are happy as, good quality and good resulting geometry.



I think you are paying big bucks to not get cheap control arms that end up cracking on you because they went cheap on the metal so they could sell for so cheap. I don't think I would trust cheap Chinese knock-offs with such a critical item on my car. If they break, especially while driving at speed, its going to cost a lot more than just another set of control arms.

Have someones cracked have they? Pics? Statements? Gee I don't want those ones! Good points though, but refer to para 1 post #7...if they are made in the same factory you are no better off! If they are not, and made in the good ol USA I'm sure you'll be fine...

I have heard of a bad batch of different designed arms, they're different to these. I've had name brand products fail too so my point is what are you actually buying here? If you would like to pay 4 x the price for aftersale service - great.

dontlifttoshift
09-08-2011, 05:26 PM
I would like to know who is so happy with the resulting geometry but didn't have junk big enough to post in the thread. If I feel that strongly that a product is great I will be sure to let everyone know.

If you want to save the money and support xerox engineering - great - just don't expect a bunch to say "yeah, that's a hella good idea"

HTRDMX55
09-08-2011, 07:38 PM
Funny as I just tore apart the whole front suspension today. Have had the global west uppers and springs for awhile now. Bought some tubular lowers off of ebay and to be honest was a bit skeptical too. They seem to be built pretty damn good and the welds are nice too. As far as geometry wont know till i get them installed. I chose to buy the lowers because by the time i had the four bushings pressed out and the cost of new ones with installation I'd end up about even. Wish me luck.

Simmo
09-08-2011, 09:26 PM
To the OP, it sounds like you are waiting for someone to post that they are from an independent lab and have tested all the control arms and the cheapest ones are by far the strongest and best performing and all of your opinions are indeed facts......not gonna happen.

I understand outsourcing. I think the proper terminology today is "private labeling". I just prefer to support those that support our hobby through sponsorship, show attendance, and/or new product development instead of the guy sitting in his living room in his underwear selling parts that he never sees or touches and will absolutely be unavailable when the product doesn't fit or just plain fails. That's all.

I dont know how you came to that conclusion? It's a well documented in the forums that they are heavier and the ball joints in some cases are inferior. Most change to tall options anyway so this is not an additional expense. I have no doubt they are not the best on the market but its value most are looking for.

If you understood your term "private labeling" you would know it's the label that is different not the product. I'm trying to figure out if this is the case here. (for the ARMS, not the hardware). If they are indeed cracking I can't seem to find reference to it anywhere in the forums aside from hearsay. Show me the pics. I'm not saying they havent I'm just not so sure that they have. It's your descision who/what/where you support and good on you. You clearly have alot of emotion tied up with your chosen hobby and again, thats great, good on ya!

JRouche
09-08-2011, 09:27 PM
Hey Simmo.. I think I get what you are thinking...

First, the question hasnt been answered yet (that I saw) if GW does or does not have arms made overseas.

AND!!! If they do there is a real possibility that the same factory sells to others without the sticker (shock).

So if an importer bought a container (or partial container) of the arms from the same factory then I dont see why they wouldnt be a decent quality. Some of the parts, like bushing materials might be of a lower grade, but that just guessing.

I would not have any problem buying the arms, but thats me. I know Ill end up at the bottom of the cliff someday anyway :nopity:

One thing I dont like is the stainless steel shaft and fasteners. I like to use known quality fasteners and when it comes to stainless thats a quality issue Id rather not depend on an unknown factory metal melter.

But cost not taken into account I think those arms would be good to go. The cost is just a side benny. Now shipping? Bet they can get to you for not too much. Not anymore than any other shipped arm set...

Id hit buy it now and wait for the brown (oh wait, your trucks prolly arent brown, ours are, to blend into the scenery) truck. You might be looking for the green truck :) !

And Ill add, I dont have ANY allegiance with ANY companies. They all have the positives and downsides. And they are ALL in the business of making money. They arent my friends, just neutral business partners with them looking to make a profit and me looking to get some car parts.

I dont get the Love, Love feeling that I see here (and on many car forums) for the manufactures of the car parts that are being sold. They are still companies looking to make a profit and sell as much product as they can. And yes, some companies give great customer support and make the entire process as painless as possible. But what the heck!! Thats what we are paying for. They better have great support and a good product.

They are not yer best bud looking out for you. Its a business relationship, NOT a life long friendship. But with some of the glowing responses I see you would think they are invited out to the estate for BBQ pork (or Lamb) every weekend LOL

Buy it and have fun!!!! Meet you at the bottom of the cliff someday huh and we can BBQ some meat... JR

Hotchkis
09-09-2011, 10:53 AM
yes you're all right there is a point were we all need to worry about the imported parts,
but are all these manufactures parts made in the USA?? really I couldn't find made in the USA on the global west site about the control arms, or on CPP's site, or on SC&C Street-Comp arms, nope on speed techs arms also, even Hotchkis doesn't state their arms USA made, looks like DSE is the only USA made arm(stated on their site on the part)



Rod – Never fear! Our control arms are made in the good ole USA, right where the rest of our parts are made. In fact most of our components are made in our on-site facility!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Bryce
09-09-2011, 11:28 AM
rod – never fear! Our control arms are made in the good ole usa, right where the rest of our parts are made. In fact most of our components are made in our on-site facility!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

awesome!!!!!!

dontlifttoshift
09-09-2011, 01:30 PM
They are not yer best bud looking out for you. Its a business relationship, NOT a life long friendship.

Maybe for you this is the truth. My personal experience has been that good people make good parts....and when the business is done I am glad to call them friends.

dontlifttoshift
09-09-2011, 01:41 PM
[QUOTE=Simmo;835151]I dont know how you came to that conclusion?

Just something I picked up on....guess I'm wrong...


It's a well documented in the forums that they are heavier and the ball joints in some cases are inferior. Most change to tall options anyway so this is not an additional expense. I have no doubt they are not the best on the market but its value most are looking for.

Apperently t's well documented that they are inferior, yet you asked for opinions on them. If it's value you are after, put the tall ball joints in your control arms, pretty cost effective.


If you understood your term "private labeling" you would know it's the label that is different not the product. I'm trying to figure out if this is the case here. (for the ARMS, not the hardware).

Not my term, but thanks for giving me credit. I thought it was well documented on the forums that they were inferior products to the brand name stuff?


If they are indeed cracking I can't seem to find reference to it anywhere in the forums aside from hearsay. Show me the pics.

I never said they were failing, I don't care if they are, that may or may not be your problem. My platform is for supporting vendors who supports us.

You made your mind up before you made your first post in this thread, you have gotten some support and gathered opionions. Best of luck to you and no matter which way you go, remember to have fun in the car.....that's the point after all..

Donny

wmhjr
09-09-2011, 08:12 PM
This thread makes my head spin with all the trash being thrown back and forth. Let's make it simple. Do what you want.

But....

It's frankly a little stupid to even be making the base comparison about whether or not the part is made in the US, China, or Mars. To start with, it's about the design. Show me any documentation that shows the effect on camber, caster, bump steer, deflection? I can get data about the SPC, DSE, Hotchkiss, RideTech, fill in the blank. There's a reason you're paying more. It's called R&D. Instead of making a part that looks like really neat stuck together sections of tubing, you're supposed to be getting something that you KNOW has a specific impact on your build. So before we even start talking about whether or not they'll fall apart at 130mph when you add side load, it would be nice to know what it's going to do to your front suspension as it moves through travel. Maybe call Meg Whitman at eBay and ask her.

My comments are not a love fest for our vendors, though I do appreciate them. Mine are about not just sticking some piece of crap that you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about the design, quality spec, materials, support after the sale, on a critical section of your car. "Well documented in the forums"? Really? You're going to ignore that there is absolutely zero technical info on them, no material data sheets, and trust completely what you read on some forums? Really? One one of the most critical parts of the car? An area of primary concern to any real Pro-Touring car? Really?

One last thing. Good companies develop relationships with their customers. In the real business world, that's how it works. Is it about margin? Absolutely. Are companies in business to make a profit? You bet. Are those things mutually exclusive from companies and customers having good long term relationships that serve the best interests of both? ESPECIALLY in "niche" markets (like ours), the answer is that good companies can ONLY succeed long term when they seek and maintain relationships with their customers. It's not a love fest. It's simply good business.

Rod
09-09-2011, 08:34 PM
Rod – Never fear! Our control arms are made in the good ole USA, right where the rest of our parts are made. In fact most of our components are made in our on-site facility!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

that's why I have every Hotchkis part you make for my 68 camaro! :twothumbs

CarlC
09-09-2011, 08:54 PM
How many times does a life-critical component have to fail before the attractive price and no R&D/testing becomes a moot point?

There are a few things on a car that fall into the life-critical category: Brakes, suspension components, and the steering system. The engine can croak and all of the sheet metal fly off, but I'll be able to point and stop the car if the big-three stay intact, and that will keep my family and I alive. I find it far more reassuring, and fun, to have a reliable and well-tuned suspension, steering, and braking system.

When the budget is a concern the money spent on trying to get the last 5-10% of engine horsepower could be used instead on the big-three with better overall results. Another 50hp won't make the car handle better or safer.

61ragtop
09-09-2011, 09:11 PM
If you call the major companies I am sure like Hotchkis they will confirm they are made in USA. I know global is as well as it was mentioned in the email from them that they were. Also mentioned was that they could not even make the arms at that price at their cost!! What does that tell you? I have learned too many times in the build of my car that cheap just means you will have some of the money saved to do it right the second time, but in the end it is cheaper to spend the cash up front.

RAnthony97
09-09-2011, 09:32 PM
Global West has a manufacturing facility in San Bernardino, CA. http://www.globalwest.net/info.html

JRouche
09-09-2011, 10:51 PM
Maybe for you this is the truth. My personal experience has been that good people make good parts....and when the business is done I am glad to call them friends.

LOL!!! Good people make good parts? What fluffy animal do you cuddle up with at night. Maybe its time to wake up and visit the world of business? Really? You didnt say good people make good parts did you? I took a nap and woke up. Good people DONT make good parts. People that know what they are doing make good parts, has nothing to do with if they are good people or not. That was pretty funny, if it was not sincere JR

rfalker1
09-09-2011, 11:09 PM
I dont know what you are building my friend... but if I can't get any evidence that these would not fail while driving a 100+ I wouldn't buy them.
I mean if we think about it. these are one of the major components of your.

Excuse me when saying this but when stuff fail going extremely fast that is critical in controlling your or stopping your car the outcome is never good.

So is taking a chance saving a couple hundred bucks worth taking a chance on the car that you put your all into or taking on chance on racking up a huge hospital bill or taking a chance on your life. Not for me!!!

I will leave that to other people, and learn from there mistakes.

GOod luck, when it comes down to it, its your life, your car... do what you want with it and enjoy it. JMO

Simmo
09-10-2011, 05:07 AM
Good arguments for and against..gotta love an open online forum.

Good to see Hotchkis step up and let us know the guff on their product. The previous owner has decked out the Elky with your F & R sways bars. Top Knotch gear for sure...wish the budget allowed your arms to match!

Cool, GW has a manufacturing facility in the US too...looks like it's all unfolding! :)


Not my term, but thanks for giving me credit. I thought it was well documented on the forums that they were inferior products to the brand name stuff?


I initially had no info on them at all hence asking the question. (my bad, should have searched with a few more terms!) I then was curious to know if the arms themselves had a chance of being made in the same factory. It happens sometimes but if I'm to believe everything in an online forum, in this case it seems not!

I've never worried or had any issues with any Asian brakes/suspension parts I've put into my cars before (can't say the same for some Aussie parts though lol) so I figured why should this be any different. Some would say the price is too cheap to be good, but knowing manufacturing cost's on stuff out of Asia I'd have to respectfully disagree.


It's frankly a little stupid to even be making the base comparison about whether or not the part is made in the US, China, or Mars. To start with, it's about the design. Show me any documentation that shows the effect on camber, caster, bump steer, deflection? I can get data about the SPC, DSE, Hotchkiss, RideTech, fill in the blank. There's a reason you're paying more. It's called R&D. Instead of making a part that looks like really neat stuck together sections of tubing, you're supposed to be getting something that you KNOW has a specific impact on your build. So before we even start talking about whether or not they'll fall apart at 130mph when you add side load, it would be nice to know what it's going to do to your front suspension as it moves through travel. Maybe call Meg Whitman at eBay and ask her.


The KMJ outfit on Ebay puts some figures up. Like any vendor though, this may or may not be the case. As has been already touched on, at least with DSE, Hotchkis, GW etc etc you could expect rectification. That's the other reason you are paying 4 x more. On other projects I have, and will do again.


"Well documented in the forums"? Really? You're going to ignore that there is absolutely zero technical info on them, no material data sheets, and trust completely what you read on some forums? Really? One one of the most critical parts of the car? An area of primary concern to any real Pro-Touring car? Really?


The KMJ crowd has more info on their add than most of the name brand stuff has on their sites. Forums are a great place for impartial advice and yes, I take it into account when making purchasing decisions. Yep it is a critical component and that is the only concern here, but if the specs are true, and are proven acceptable from a number off this and other sites I'm going to at least consider them. I know name brand stuff is good, largely because of the sheer number of happy customers I read about in these forums. However I doubt these vendors have never had a product fail/issues. I have still yet to see a pic of a cracked arm yet so I'll be keeping an eye out until I ship my next order over. I get what you and others are trying to say, I just have a slightly different angle on it. Ultimately, do what you want to do, spend your $$$ where you see fit and have fun doing it!

wmhjr
09-10-2011, 05:58 AM
I still don't get the preoccupation on being manufactured in the US. From a jobs perspective, and of course my preference, sure. But for me it's not the biggest issue. One point, however, is that the companies that do the R&D right as well as all the other stuff, tend to either have their manufacturing in the US or they have very good off-shore manufacturing. There is such a thing. I have personally been involved in it, and would put some of that manufacturing up against similar components (not automotive related) that were manufactured anywhere on this planet.

The point is before that. Does this ebay no-history unknown knockoff discount version of a part have some numbers posted? Maybe. And exactly where did they come from? How are they validated? The name brand stuff isn't good because of the sheer number of happy customers. It's good because the data is backed up, and those vendors are at our events right next to us running those components, beating on them in public and continuing to test and validate designs. Please show me where the KMJ "specs" are "validated" by a bunch of guys who you have no idea who they are, who are almost certainly not pushing their cars the same way we are (true, because the only real events to do this are the ones that our guys put together, and those cars sure ain't there).

I looked at the KMJ site. Have to admit, I'm just not impressed. Based on what I've observed there, I put zero stock in any of the "technical documentation" on their site, and less than that on forum responses. Find me one of those guys at SCCA or one of our events, beating on cars with huge side loads and tremendous velocity changes and find me somebody involved in the design that I can actually have an english language based conversation with (as I have with the manufacturers of every suspension component on my car) and just maybe my mind will change.

I agree with do what you want to do, and spend where you see fit. I just don't agree with the attitude that there is apparently (to you) so little difference). If this car is going to see any track use, or any type of "tough" use, this is not an area to take shortcuts IMHO

wmhjr
09-10-2011, 06:05 AM
LOL!!! Good people make good parts? What fluffy animal do you cuddle up with at night. Maybe its time to wake up and visit the world of business? Really? You didnt say good people make good parts did you? I took a nap and woke up. Good people DONT make good parts. People that know what they are doing make good parts, has nothing to do with if they are good people or not. That was pretty funny, if it was not sincere JR

JR, I'm guessing you're not in the business world. People who know what they're doing AND who are doing things right make good parts long term. Our industry is filled with technically brilliant people who were one hit wonders, but failures on their ability to properly service their customers caused their failure. This particular market is a very VERY "niche" market. The target population is far too small to allow for poor customer service. Poor customer service eventually typically means failure, and we've seen that happen. Remember Crane cams? It wasn't design that killed them, was it?

Here's my experience in this particular market. The best companies out there do a great job of personally interacting with their customer base. I won't start naming names but suffice it to say that just about every manufacturer of these types of componenets on my car I've personally interacted with, shook their hand, and had conversations. I see them vetting those designs, and often stepping up to resolve issues. This ain't getting a Big Mac at McDonalds. They have to do this because their market is limited, and the good ones do it well because they have a combination of good people and smart people - often the same people. Point is, this is not GE. Jack Welch processes and attitudes aren't enough to succeed here. Frankly, they could kill a business in this area. Gotta adapt to the market you're in, JR. "Know your customer". ESPECIALLY as products become commoditized, it's all about the relationship.

dontlifttoshift
09-10-2011, 06:14 AM
[QUOTE]LOL!!! Good people make good parts? What fluffy animal do you cuddle up with at night.

It's not real fluffy, its a sock monkey...


Maybe its time to wake up and visit the world of business? Really? You didnt say good people make good parts did you? I took a nap and woke up. Good people DONT make good parts. People that know what they are doing make good parts, has nothing to do with if they are good people or not. That was pretty funny, if it was not sincere JR

I visit the world of business, everyday. In fact your hobby (mine as well) is my business. I am not in manufacturing, I have no interest in it, but I put an enormous amount of faith in the vendors that we sell parts from. Good people DO make good parts. What I should have spelled out for you is they make good parts because of their knowledge, they continue to be in business because they are good people. There are always exceptions, but in general, great parts in this industry come from good people. Not everybody is in this just to get in your wallet. It's proven time and time again that business built on that model in this industry usually fail outright or at the very least fail to grow. When the people in charge are car people and genuinely care about the customer AND their product they will succeed and those will be some of the best parts on the market.



I am truly sorry that your personal experience leads you to see otherwise.

CarlC
09-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Guys, no personal attacks. A civil discussion can be had without them. It's not like we have not gone down this exact road in other threads.

Simmo
09-10-2011, 09:41 PM
I still don't get the preoccupation on being manufactured in the US. From a jobs perspective, and of course my preference, sure. But for me it's not the biggest issue. One point, however, is that the companies that do the R&D right as well as all the other stuff, tend to either have their manufacturing in the US or they have very good off-shore manufacturing. There is such a thing. I have personally been involved in it, and would put some of that manufacturing up against similar components (not automotive related) that were manufactured anywhere on this planet.

To be honest I dont really care either, heck I'm on the other side of the world! Rightly or wrongly, for many it is an additional reassurance of quality. As far as the quality of non-US manufacturing goes I have stated numerous times I have absolutely no issues with it :)



The point is before that. Does this ebay no-history unknown knockoff discount version of a part have some numbers posted? Maybe. And exactly where did they come from? How are they validated? The name brand stuff isn't good because of the sheer number of happy customers. It's good because the data is backed up, and those vendors are at our events right next to us running those components, beating on them in public and continuing to test and validate designs. Please show me where the KMJ "specs" are "validated" by a bunch of guys who you have no idea who they are, who are almost certainly not pushing their cars the same way we are (true, because the only real events to do this are the ones that our guys put together, and those cars sure ain't there).


Maybe I didnt make it clear, this project wont see the track. As I dont frequent these events for logistical reasons, I do take opinions off these sites into account. I have no doubt the name brand stuff is good and can back up their claims even though I have no idea who they are. In the past I have used their parts and on the next project that will see some track time I will again for exactly the same reasons you state. I feel that $300 + ball joints for a tidy engine bay, a few degrees +'ve caster and a little more camber nearing the -'ve for moderate driving is money well spent IMO. It sounds like you are part of the select few who push their car to the limit regularly and actually require the top level gear you have purchased.


I looked at the KMJ site. Have to admit, I'm just not impressed. Based on what I've observed there, I put zero stock in any of the "technical documentation" on their site, and less than that on forum responses. Find me one of those guys at SCCA or one of our events, beating on cars with huge side loads and tremendous velocity changes and find me somebody involved in the design that I can actually have an english language based conversation with (as I have with the manufacturers of every suspension component on my car) and just maybe my mind will change.


I'd be interested to know what makes you think the information on their site is false. However, you are entitled to your opinions, and it sounds like you are satisfied with your due diligence and your choice of gear. Great for your application.


I agree with do what you want to do, and spend where you see fit. I just don't agree with the attitude that there is apparently (to you) so little difference). If this car is going to see any track use, or any type of "tough" use, this is not an area to take shortcuts

In some cases there is no difference, and again, no it will not be tracked. Cheers for your input :)

JRouche
09-10-2011, 09:49 PM
Yeah, all great info. I still DONT think good or great parts are produced because a person is "good". Thats such an open definition about a persons quality as a person, a "good person". It was funny when I saw it and I was just trying to say so.

The statement "My personal experience has been that good people make good parts..."

WTF is a "good person"? Thats a quality that can be opinionated. BUT!! A good product can be quantified and thats what we are concerned with. Sure, good customer support is good. But just because a person is a great salesman, or a good customer support guy does NOT even mean he is a good person.

Maybe the statment would be better like saying good parts are usually made by good people... And thats still is iffy. I know some not so good people (down right a holes) that turn out some great parts.

I just have a problem with the "good people make good parts". Thats a F'in joke. Good people can make lousy parts, just as well as the A-holes out there.

Blanket statements!!! I have an issue with them. They dont WORK!!! JR

TT302Z28
09-11-2011, 04:03 AM
If you are ok with "*hit happens" buy the cheap arms.

You get what you pay for. Sometimes it is just that there would be a window you can throw a product through if it's junk. Not everything made in the USA is better magically because it was made in the USA. I wish that were true, our economy wouldn't in the toilet. Who will you call when the eBay arm fails?

I have been in manufacturing all my life and there is a very simple rule to it. To achieve the same or lower cost to the consumer but more profit you either make more of it or take cost out. It is obvious they have copied the design, took cost out and mass produced it. Do you know what a certified welder makes an hour? I'll bet the name brand companies can tell you.

For God's sake just buy them and get it over with. There is nothing wrong with the eBay arms, it's just that we all get free t shirts from the suspension companies when we convince you to buy their stuff (sarcasm).

Good luck.

dontlifttoshift
09-11-2011, 04:40 AM
JR, check you signature.

I think most understand what I am saying, if you don't I'm sorry.

Donny

JRouche
09-11-2011, 04:22 PM
LOL.. I know right Donny! I put my sig like that cause its true. I dont know chit, Im often way off the mark when it comes to forum discussions and I tend to drift away from the topic at hand. Wait till you see the 2012 sig line. Might be something like "Sitting on the couch in a diaper cause I cant get motivated to get to the chitter".

Solly to sound like a pain in the butt. I dont know what gets into me (might be the tequila) but I DO go off the deep end sometimes. My bust Donny. Solly for the stupid comments and personal BS.

But also solly to Simmo for my non productive dribble. I hate it when I do that.

I think I need a drunk passcode for my computer to keep me off it at night. I seem to do more apologizing and stupid posting anymore instead of productive input...... Not cool... JR

rustomatic
09-11-2011, 09:03 PM
I'd be impressed to find steel tubing/plate parts for old American cars that are not from China. A great many of the items on my Falcon are Chinese, and are working well enough so far. I'm really wondering about my new Maier panhard bar, as it had no statement of provenance. That said, it welded in fine, and amazingly allowed me to wail far more mercilessly on the car in turns; it's also quite attractive...


Cheers for the links, I tried a few more search options and got some more opinions. Interesting that all who had purchased seemed to be happy (maybe all the not so happy ones are stuck down the bottom a cliff lol). They are a critical part, so I too cringe at the thought of losing control at the expense of cheap arms, but I'm also on a budget for this build so the cost/benefit analysis has to be carried out and I especially do not want to pay big bucks for stickers.

I'm all for American quality, however other countries including Asian ones can make good gear at a fair price. When I worked for a major Australasian parts company I learnt a fair bit about where this stuff comes from and what this stuff costs to make. Selling gear at RRP often made me feel sick, but thats the way it is. Yep the majority of stuff was made in Asia, but the failure rates were virtually non existant. Out of interest, in the US, how much of the OE replacement steering and suspension stuff at the main-line auto stores is non-US made? What do you think of the quality/value - honestly? What make of parts do you replace in your daily driver that transports your wife and kids?

I am overlooking the fact that these arms are kinda 'out the back of a truck' ebay sellers, not from your down the road auto store so thats where my concern lies. Do any of the main stores sell this type of cheap arm? I've been told personally by certain 'performance' suppliers over here that yes, in some cases their 'branded' part is made in a Chinese factory, passes their QC, and then carries their logo. So the identical part can be picked up at a considerable discount without their sticker - so not really getting what you pay for. I'm already forking out huge freight and customs bills, so I just dont want to give too much $ away!

Whoops got mildly off topic, but I applaud those of you who can afford to buy American made, can trust the quality, and support your country. 61ragtop - what did the CEO of GW have to say if you dont mind? It's just that those arms really do look identical - but maybe I'm wrong.

I'd be going with Howe joints either way so that eliminates one area of concern, and different bushing material is plentiful, however has anyone tested this type of arm for fatigue/strength etc?

rustomatic
09-11-2011, 09:09 PM
You've put this nicely, Tim--I ride my mountain bike in your back yard, by the way! Being a northerner, you might have an idea of what Flowmaster has paid its welders in West Sacramento: like not much at all for what they do. Then again, I'm not really privy to their process, or its level of automation. While jobs in the USA are good, it's kind of insulting when you have a product that tons of people buy, while knowing the guys who make it get paid squat, or not much better than the overseas equivalent...

Chinese quality has stepped up in recent years. Consider the fact that Taiwan is now about at the level of Japan in the 1980s, production quality-wise. I'm genuinely happy to find Taiwan labels on stuff I've bought, as I know their quality in manufacturing has had decades to improve, and actually has done so...


If you are ok with "*hit happens" buy the cheap arms.

You get what you pay for. Sometimes it is just that there would be a window you can throw a product through if it's junk. Not everything made in the USA is better magically because it was made in the USA. I wish that were true, our economy wouldn't in the toilet. Who will you call when the eBay arm fails?

I have been in manufacturing all my life and there is a very simple rule to it. To achieve the same or lower cost to the consumer but more profit you either make more of it or take cost out. It is obvious they have copied the design, took cost out and mass produced it. Do you know what a certified welder makes an hour? I'll bet the name brand companies can tell you.

For God's sake just buy them and get it over with. There is nothing wrong with the eBay arms, it's just that we all get free t shirts from the suspension companies when we convince you to buy their stuff (sarcasm).

Good luck.

JRouche
09-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Chinese quality has stepped up in recent years. Consider the fact that Taiwan is now about at the level of Japan in the 1980s, production quality-wise.

Right. It seems so for some stuff. And I see more and more stuff coming outta India (not car stuff but machine related stuff). Almost like India is the China of the 80s-90s, and China is knocking on the door for quality that Taiwan had in the 80s-90s. And Taiwan is getting up there to the quality that Japan was producing when they shifted gears from inexpensive but decent tooling.

It really seems to be a progression. I read old writings of machinists who were bad mouthing Japanese tooling from years ago. Now they have some great product lines and are comparable to any high end machinery and tooling from any country.

Not in my lifetime but I imagine the Philippines will follow India and then Indonesia..

The Philippines is already taking some US work (jobs) in the form of call centers and medical professional work. My wife is a Nurse case manager for Blue Cross. They are laying off a few hundred workers (professionals) this year and moving the work to the Philippines.

Its just progression and there is no stopping it.

I am 100% for supporting American workers. But sometimes its the diff between a guy not able to do anything on his car cause he just cant afford the extra cost by using American made products and being able to get his car on the road and enjoying it by going with a less expensive import.

All of my suspension is made up of American built parts. And who knows, they may still rely on imported raw materials but at least I know its being worked on by the average Joe that could use the work.

Companies like Art Morrison, TCI, Air Ride tech, Ballistic Fabrication, Cat industries, Fays2 (watts link), Wilwood (right here in my town), Speedway Engineering (sway bars), SPC control arms, Baer for the bumpsteer fix and heck, even the wheels (Billet Specialties).

Im prolly missing a few US companies. But even if its only providing a welder with a job, or a designer and the sales staff. A penny here and there helps.

But.... Its gonna cost a lil more. If I had to, just to get my car on the road I would shop ANY supplier that fit the need. As far as quality goes. Well, Ill leave that up to you pros to work out. Im not schooled up enough to comment on that, no engineering degree here :) JR

rustomatic
09-13-2011, 09:33 PM
My five-leaf mid-eye rear springs were made in India (I did buy them locally, however)... They are doing okay thus far, especially with the new Panhard keeping track of them laterally...

Simmo
09-14-2011, 01:07 AM
But also solly to Simmo for my non productive dribble. I hate it when I do that.


You are forgiven. I did have a laugh when I read the back cover of the assembly manual that arrived today...I now think we must have it all wrong!


I have been in manufacturing all my life and there is a very simple rule to it. To achieve the same or lower cost to the consumer but more profit you either make more of it or take cost out. It is obvious they have copied the design, took cost out and mass produced it. Do you know what a certified welder makes an hour? I'll bet the name brand companies can tell you.

For God's sake just buy them and get it over with. There is nothing wrong with the eBay arms, it's just that we all get free t shirts from the suspension companies when we convince you to buy their stuff (sarcasm).



Sorry I have no idea what a certified welder in the US earns.....not enough I bet! That is if his job hasnt been replaced with automation.

Haha I'd made the call to run the SPC uppers a while ago...I'm just amused/entertained at the attitude of some on here.

At $320 + the tall ball joint options, it offers the best bang for buck IMO. They offer arms for a lot less for other applications, so as far as quality manufacturing goes I don't believe you need to spend top dollar to get it. I'll have to remember to get my T-Shirt...

knucklebusted
09-14-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm not sure what the thread has devolved into but I bought these arms this spring and put them on my car with no problems what so ever. Shipping was free in the US.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/body-64-72-monte-carlo-chevelle-tubular-control-arms-/170694941458?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27be361b12

They bolted in with out a hammer and were built sturdy enough I have every confidence in them. Have you looked at how flimsy the factory stamped arms are? Really!

I left the bottom ball joint in place and put the tall pro-forged upper in as I wanted as much handling as I could get from a stock-ish front end with stock spindles, brakes and steering geometry.

Jcmolina
06-23-2012, 12:34 PM
Guys I just installed the cheap control arms from eBay on my 71 Chevelle and do far no issues yet. I have been driving the car al summer and my only issue is that the steering might be a little tight but alignment went well.

chevelletiger
06-23-2012, 05:31 PM
I would like to add something to this and im not trying to piss anybody off...but as someone working in mfg. Most material you get from metal supply houses such as tube services,schore metals, benner metals,industrial metal supply get thete stock from china,india,etc.theres very few us steel mfgs in the us.sad but true.and for a note to people cpp control arms are made in anaheim ca. USA!....but there welded by mexicans which arent american!just because someone is not american does mean they have any skills to weld or machine anything good,they might weld better than some of the members that dont habe these skills.yes. Qc is sometimes a problem but so it it in the states.as for companys Doing testing MOST of these places dont have testing equippment or money to do extreme testing like an oe can.dse does i know and spc.from what i also have found out by marc at scandc is the gw,dse,hotchkiss,speedtech lowers do not have revised specs.spc's do.im not putting these co. Down im stating facts.if eveybody wants all american call the co. Your wanting arms from ect. And ask them if there parts are made by a china man mexican or any other non american,and if they use metal from an american metal supply mfg. And never buys offshore steel and see what answer you get i bet they wont tell you the whole truth and dance around it.

chevelletiger
06-23-2012, 05:41 PM
Btw i had a h.f. Stud gun started doing alot of bodywork started looking for a usa gun called uni spot.made in china! So...i bought a motorgaurd magna spot which said made in the usa,so i took it apart and guess what same parts with same china.labels on the components as the h.f. One! So i called them and asked of the parts.where made in china,they said it was proprietary information :-(

Jcmolina
06-24-2012, 09:52 AM
Yes exactly now days to be cost efficient you must either buy china parts or manufacture. My situation is a good example I own a custom door shop but I manufacture in Mexico but all materials are bought in th USA and I have to do this because then I would be out of business. So I go back to the China tubular arms I bought on eBay they are working fine and have no issues with any part out there almost everything is being manufactured or supplies being brought from somewhere

69-nova
08-08-2012, 02:16 PM
im 17 and building a budget 69 pro touring nova. im prob gona go pick up a set of these http://www.kmjent.com/cart/product.php?productid=4531&cat=&page=1 control arms tomorrow. good idea or bad idea? needs replies ASAP

analyte
08-08-2012, 04:42 PM
I would like to add something to this and im not trying to piss anybody off...but as someone working in mfg. Most material you get from metal supply houses such as tube services,schore metals, benner metals,industrial metal supply get thete stock from china,india,etc.theres very few us steel mfgs in the us.sad but true.and for a note to people cpp control arms are made in anaheim ca. USA!....but there welded by mexicans which arent american!just because someone is not american does mean they have any skills to weld or machine anything good,they might weld better than some of the members that dont habe these skills.yes. Qc is sometimes a problem but so it it in the states.as for companys Doing testing MOST of these places dont have testing equippment or money to do extreme testing like an oe https://www.pro-touring.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=916400can.dse does i know and spc.from what i also have found out by marc at scandc is the gw,dse,hotchkiss,speedtech lowers do not have revised specs.spc's do.im not putting these co. Down im stating facts.if eveybody wants all american call the co. Your wanting arms from ect. And ask them if there parts are made by a china man mexican or any other non american,and if they use metal from an american metal supply mfg. And never buys offshore steel and see what answer you get i bet they wont tell you the whole truth and dance around it.

Sorry, but that was hard to read/follow. I finally gave up.

kiwigt
08-09-2012, 12:18 AM
With the significant shipping and import costs you face, the (lower) initial purchase price is only one factor in the value equation. If you buy Global West you can feel assured you're purchasing a well proven, well tested and researched product. I've had GW front and rear suspension on a 480hp 66 mustang for over a decade, and I'd absolutely do it all again. Also remember GW provide service and maintenance parts for your vehicle years down the track, possibly unlike some less established ebay vendor.

If you do change your suspension; in NZ you'll be required to certify your engineering changes to the vehicle through the NZ Low Volume Vehicle (LVV) engineering certification process. Having been through this certification process several times, in my experience NZ LVV certifying engineers are happier signing off on a major suspension supplier like GW, who have documentation and a credible history, than they might be on a lesser known eBay vendor.

Simmo
08-09-2012, 01:32 AM
With the significant shipping and import costs you face, the (lower) initial purchase price is only one factor in the value equation. If you buy Global West you can feel assured you're purchasing a well proven, well tested and researched product. I've had GW front and rear suspension on a 480hp 66 mustang for over a decade, and I'd absolutely do it all again. Also remember GW provide service and maintenance parts for your vehicle years down the track, possibly unlike some less established ebay vendor.

If you do change your suspension; in NZ you'll be required to certify your engineering changes to the vehicle through the NZ Low Volume Vehicle (LVV) engineering certification process. Having been through this certification process several times, in my experience NZ LVV certifying engineers are happier signing off on a major suspension supplier like GW, who have documentation and a credible history, than they might be on a lesser known eBay vendor.

Year old thread.......but funnily enough I purchased my first GW part last week. I ran with SPC arms though, they actually made a significant differerence to the piss-poor geometry unlike some of the big name arms out there. Most of the stuff of US origin I've brought in over the last year has been real decent stuff...but so is some of the Asian stuff too, that was kinda my angle in the thread.

Yeah we are blessed with the LVV guys here, quite dynamic and willing to hear your case out even if it's slightly outside the norm, in the interest of the hobby. Though it does pay to have some paperwork to back it up like you say!

m3chaser
08-10-2012, 10:19 AM
I've been a lurker here, but I would like to add my two cents on the subject. I used to drive a Z3 M Coupe (autocrossed it for two years) and the parts for BMW's can get expensive when you get into aftermarket mods. Headers used to go for $1200 from guys like AA, Dinan, etc and now you can find them on ebay for $200-400 easy. Same quality (proven after years of use) but way cheaper. Why? Because the chinese are stealing all the R&D and making the same product for much less because they are not regulated like our companies and they don't pay near the labor costs (in 2008 our companies paid 1.75 trillion to comply with federal regulations or 11 percent of our GDP at the time). They are able to make quality stuff because they have no cost into R&D because they've consistently stolen our companies R&D data from off our companies computers.

Most companies do not have strong cyber security on their networks regardless if they are large or small companies. When they keep their R&D data of dimensions, material used, etc on their systems and don't properly protect it (Anti-virus isn't up to the task BTW) then it's easy to see how and why the Chinese are able to make the same product for much less and keep the same quality based on how capable the Chinese are in the cyber realm.

overZealous1
08-10-2012, 01:41 PM
probably way easier to just buy a set and reverse engineer it than hack computers from abroad. hahaa

DarkoNova
08-10-2012, 02:02 PM
probably way easier to just buy a set and reverse engineer it than hack computers from abroad. hahaa

Yeah, I assumed that's how they did it. Hacking into their system and stealing design files never even crossed my mind lol.

Blown73
08-10-2012, 02:21 PM
This is an entertaining read by a supporting vendor regarding this exact subject.

http://cachassisworks.com/whitepapers/GrandTheftProduct_by_ChrisAlston.pdf

overZealous1
08-10-2012, 04:33 PM
^ while i can agree with most all of what was said in the article, it is not taking into consideration the consumers out look of price and descision making. yup, manufacturing in the u.s. can be a bitch if you are doing it for a large market that can support large build quantities without being able to manufacture on a large scale yourself. i can agree with what was said about selling or resale "safety" feeling. really all that will do is give someone a little leverage to talk you down on price, which they were going to do anyways.

before anyone thinks i am on one side or the other, i have had, and currently have a parts building business. while neither has been my primary source of income, it is still something i am passionate about. the first round of parts was for a very popular chassis. my parts set records and were pretty revolutionary for that chassis. every part got copied in some way within 3 months, with shops i trusted even sharing with other builders. it is ineviteble. only way to stay on top is to keep developing. there is always a following to have the name brand, and people will pay for that.
knowing what everyone else has posted in this thread already previously, i myself purchased the ebay arms. in my opinion, it was in the price range of my time to build my own. the upper ball joint hardware needs to be replaced with grade 8 bolts/nuts, but other than that, good quality. my car is not finished though, so i have no miles on them.

current parts i make for a limited production car. no chance of copies. i use 4 different companies to supply products for me to assemble final product. that way even the companies i use could rebrand it, but, nobody knows the actual final product. so while it can be purchased complete, and reverse engineered, the chassis count does not designate a large production run. so, i am safe from overseas copies. they would kill me on profit margin if that were the case.

bottom line, if a company wants to make a product that can achieve high production numbers, it would be best to develop product, then send prototype overseas and bare the initial expense to build in quantity. you will gain a corner on the market based on the fact people would walk away from copying it due to low profit margin based on competitive or "name brand" pricing. it can be name brand product and name brand development, but produced in a cheaper way.

before anyone tries to put me on front street with this or anything, welcome to the real world. there is a reason i don't do this business full time. it is the most cut throat i have ever seen, behind the scenes.

DarkoNova
08-10-2012, 04:47 PM
Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't get why the big companies don't just lower their prices a bit to compete and make the "real" products more attractive to consumers.

I mean I get that it takes a lot of money and time for R&D and testing and all that, but honestly, you develop parts and 10 years later those same parts are the same exact price? Seems pretty ridiculous, IMO. Hypothetical situation: you spend $100,000 developing some control arms and then charge $1000 a set to get the money back (and then some). So you need to sell 1000 sets at that price to break even. Well, especially for stuff as mainstream as 1st gen Camaro parts, it would seem logical that after your "break even" point, there would be imitation control arms, and you could lower your price to keep more of the market cornered.

I don't know much about business and all that, but that seems logical to me. If I ever had a business and was making parts, that's probably what I'd do.

*puts on flamesuit*

Simmo
08-10-2012, 05:15 PM
bottom line, if a company wants to make a product that can achieve high production numbers, it would be best to develop product, then send prototype overseas and bare the initial expense to build in quantity. you will gain a corner on the market based on the fact people would walk away from copying it due to low profit margin based on competitive or "name brand" pricing. it can be name brand product and name brand development, but produced in a cheaper way.

Hit the nail on the head ^

I don't know why more of the "big names" don't do exactly that. Whether it's brand protection, fear of lack of control or reluctance to deal with "those dang Chinese" I don't know. Even the most iconic US firms like Boeing, GM, HD seem to have worked that out...for better for worse...the bottom line, the production costs are less.

There has got to be the market/sufficient unit demand for more affordable products otherwise there wouldnt be the many sources of aftermarket arms out there. For the consumer the hardest bit to swallow is the difference in price of these goods, we're not talking 10 or 20% here. I'd be willing to bet most guy's who have purchased "Ebay Arms" would have stretched to say, twice, what they paid for the Ebay arms to have a known US name brand part....the trouble is they'd be looking at 4 x the price. I believe this is where there is a gap to achieve balance, and a hell of an increase in sales for the big name who takes the plunge. ***Actually, for all I know they may do this, but retain the margin...who knows****

overZealous1
08-10-2012, 05:55 PM
a private company developing the parts vs. a manufacturer that has the equipment to mass produce. as like most products out there, there is only a handful of manufacturers who have the ability to do large production runs. there is so many products out there, that the name brand product is made by, and so is the lesser known brands, and the knock offs. it can all be made by the same manufacturer. it just gets name branded by a certain company as per their specific design or compound requirements.

bbs is one of the only companies in the world that has the tooling to produce rim halves for a decent price or one piece forged stock. most all other wheel manufacturers out there only machine the centers to create the fine measurement offsets for a car and their own design specifics. so, doesn't matter which wheel company you go with, you are going to get bbs inner and outers with the specific companies centers. for a one piece forged, you will only find bbs as a supplier for the base wheel. aftermarket companies machine from there. this is only one example. so why such vast difference in price? lol. on my custom cars, i chose adv and hre. both from bbs originally. big price difference, but, i wanted the name brands.

i am not on one side or the other. but just to clarify for those who like to buy u.s. built only, have it custom built by a local shop, or build your own. thats the only way you will be sure. as for the u.s. designed products going under thousands of dollars of r&d. luckily, you can outsource an engineer to figure out loads and proposed weld strengths and dimensions for not much money. $1000 maybe. i could build a test rig and put an arm through all force axises for about $1200 with documentation. the mystique of tons of money invested is just that, mystique. ask for engineered sheets on any product you buy, u.s. made or unknown. i can almost guarantee you will not receive anything. the testing means it just didn't break on the test drive. depending on design though can also be a moronic failure. meaning, it could be welded with near zero penetration and still be fine due to design and load path without failure.
car manufacturers test due to liabilities and the reputation of a huge corporation. most shops simply do not have the complicated software to design a part from scratch to eliminate failure using the least amount of material used. so, they are typically "over engineered" to create a no failure scenario.

it is a world economy and u.s. does not lead that anymore. if you are a u.s. manufacturer or designer, quite bitching and find your nitch or get with the program. all want the name brand, but some find it hard to spend the extra dough when there is a viable solution for less than half price.

with all this said, i still firmly stand behind the development of the products and the name brand u.s designed and built products 100%, because my main source of income is exactly that. but, building parts in a world market, will have to adjust accordingly if you want to limit the sales of copy cats.

Simmo
08-10-2012, 06:22 PM
Thought I'd add,

You mentioned continued development/R&D...this is what got SPC the sale in my case. I could have bought some arms from one of the other major players however I didnt feel I was gaining anything major over the cheapies. Their modular spring pocket, wheel centreing/positve caster along with the SC&C Stage 2 + bumpsteer/camber gain improvements were actually worth paying for.

Call me a sucker but that's how I managed to (reluctantly) justify the $1000 arms :)