How to get an A Body El Camino to corner?

[Simmo]

Have done an exhaustive search, there is a link to an epic drop spindle discussion but it didnt work. So I have to ask the question:-

In the hunt to find a 69 Camaro I got impatient and found a 68 El Camino instead. (slightly different I know) Reason being, it already has Hotchkis BIG swaybars front and rear, 12 inch Wilwoods up front and a 9inch (very well set up) with discs at the rear, quick ratio steering box, Lovells lowering springs, Nolathane bushes throughout and loads of other new bits. It's an incomplete project thats sort of half way to where I want it to be cornering wise.

First of all I want to get the stance right. It must be an 1 inch - 1 1/2 half lower than stock, but I want it sitting around about another 1 1/2 inches lower.

As I picked up a tad of negativity toward drop spindles in the threads I read, I want to find out the alternatives. Can I just pick up some lower springs or are there geometry issues I need to address? I have found some McGaughys spindles off a local guy at a sharp price...I am wondering what the negatives are and has anyone had any experience fitting these in combo with Wilwoods? It is running 18 x 8.5 rims up front so I hear this helps. I dont want to go the tubular arm route just yet if I can help it.

Lastly, what sort of spring rate should I look for? It's running an iron top SBC at the moment (love to go LS...maybe down the road a bit :smoke:)

Oh and Vendors feel free to chime in..it wouldnt be the first time I've brought stuff in from the states :)

[shep]

Cheap way is circle track springs with adjusters front and rear.
5x9 for the front http://www.speedwaymotors.com/AFCO-5-Inch-x-9-1-2-Inch-Front-Springs,23682.html 700 to 750lb range
5.5x11 for the rear http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Hyperco-Street-Stock-Rear-Spring-5-1-2-x-11,5878.html 150 to 275 lb
Adjustable shims http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Adjustable-Spring-Shims,3389.html 3-1/8" to 5-1/4" for the front and 0" to 2-1/2" for the rear. With the circle track springs if or when you go LS for less than $100 (if you shop around) you can change the front springs.
When you are ready to go tubular give Marcus at SC&C a call I would look at their street comp kit http://scandc.com/new/node/679 or the stage 2 plus kit if you don't want to change spindles http://scandc.com/new/node/37

[Norm Peterson]

Drop spindles can cause interference between the outer tierod ends and the inboard wheel flanges. That's still a problem even if you're OK with the OE geometry not being compromised. That may or may not be an issue with 18" wheels.

Yes, there are geometry issues involved when you lower the ride height with springs. At some point, you'll have to decide whether it's cornering & handling goodness that you want, or if it's more of an appearance thing that you're after. You may get suggestions either way - mine would be to put the cornering & handling first and let the ride height fall where it may, ± a little spring trimming/shimming from there. Others might suggest stiffening & lowering and tinkering with different sta-bars to adjust whatever handling change occurs from the rest.

In the end it's going to have to be your compromise. Just know that the actual cornering gain from getting a lower CG height is not as great as the change in appearance suggests even when the geometry is kept correct.


Hunt down a copy of Mark Savitske's book "How To Make Your Muscle Car Handle".


Norm

[killer69]

This works really Well, just competed at the Super Chevy Suspension and Handling event and for a 3700 lb car with an automatic all the drivers liked it including Mary Pozzi.

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=186/category_id=247/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd186.htm

This si the car we used

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=297/category_id=110/home_id=110/mode=prod/prd297.htm

[exwestracer]

I agree with Norm in that the two main drawbacks to drop spindles are clearance issues and the fact that they don't force you to do something about the less than stellar stock GM geometry... Try to keep the lower ball joint and mounting bushings level at ride height. Much lower than that and the geometry goes wonky in the corners.

If the rear suspension has stock arms and urethane bushings, it is already bound up; so the swivel links (i.e. the Speed Tech setup) are a must, at least on top.

[rustomatic]

It sounds like you've already got enough stuff to make it handle decently. Have you driven the car/truck yet to generate your own driving/need impression? After driving impressions, I'd say pop the springs and bust out your angle grinder with the cutoff wheel--just operate evenly and sparingly with your cuts. Make sure that as you lower, you do not do it to the point where you no longer have reasonable shock travel/bump clearance; without this, your suspension is useless.

[Simmo]

Cheers for the help guys, I'm going to try steer - excuse the pun - away from spindles as I'm not 100% what I have got (maybe stock GM disc spindles with Wilwood bracket - see below) they have TK stamped on top.

As far as the rear goes, it has adjustable upper arms and stock lowers. Not sure if thats the 'swivel links' you refer to but its just a threaded arm with a heim joint.

As it turns out, the spring tag with part number was still attached which happens to be a 'low'. Guy down the road has a spring rate tester so I'll check that out and either massage with a cut off wheel or replace with 'super lows'. Hopefully that wont throw the geometry out too much.

The cars not 'road legal' as such so I havent had a chance to drive it hard yet but as it sits in the shed bugs me lol. Can you trim the bumpstops on these vehicles sucessfully? Might help with travel issues. Exploring tall baljoints aswell so I'd appreciate feedback on those too!

[JChilders]

I would give Marc from SC&C a call. Just make sure you plan to spend some time on the phone with him. He can answer all of you A-Body questions and then some.

[exwestracer]

Cheers for the help guys, I'm going to try steer - excuse the pun - away from spindles as I'm not 100% what I have got (maybe stock GM disc spindles with Wilwood bracket - see below) they have TK stamped on top.

As far as the rear goes, it has adjustable upper arms and stock lowers. Not sure if thats the 'swivel links' you refer to but its just a threaded arm with a heim joint.

If you look at the Speed Tech upper rear arms, they have a swivel joint in the middle to eliminate the bind from using urethane bushings. Don't worry about it, your heims do the same thing. See, a picture IS worth 1000 words...

As it turns out, the spring tag with part number was still attached which happens to be a 'low'. Guy down the road has a spring rate tester so I'll check that out and either massage with a cut off wheel or replace with 'super lows'. Hopefully that wont throw the geometry out too much.

The cars not 'road legal' as such so I havent had a chance to drive it hard yet but as it sits in the shed bugs me lol. Can you trim the bumpstops on these vehicles sucessfully? Might help with travel issues. Exploring tall baljoints aswell so I'd appreciate feedback on those too!

Personally I would go with the drop spindle over the tall lower joint. A tall upper joint will help the camber curve regardless.

[Randy67]

It is easy to get an El Camino to handle. Autocrossed it for 2 years like this
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

That was with SC&C stage II front suspension (stage II + wasn't out yet) and custom 3-link rear with panhard bar. Stock spindles, circle track springs front and rear, it sat low enough without drop spindles. Any lower and exhaust became an issue, headers were tight to the floor pan as they could be. I did have higher than normal spring rates so the ride was a little harsh, 1000 lb fronts and 350 lb rears with heavy valved Pro Shocks stock mount shocks.

[shep]

Personally I would go with the drop spindle over the tall lower joint. A tall upper joint will help the camber curve regardless.

On the A-body the tall lower ball joint helps correct the bump-steer and gives some additional drop. The only dropped spindles that address that are the L&H and AFX as far as I know.

[Hotchkis]

Have done an exhaustive search, there is a link to an epic drop spindle discussion but it didnt work. So I have to ask the question:-

In the hunt to find a 69 Camaro I got impatient and found a 68 El Camino instead. (slightly different I know) Reason being, it already has Hotchkis BIG swaybars front and rear, 12 inch Wilwoods up front and a 9inch (very well set up) with discs at the rear, quick ratio steering box, Lovells lowering springs, Nolathane bushes throughout and loads of other new bits. It's an incomplete project thats sort of half way to where I want it to be cornering wise.

First of all I want to get the stance right. It must be an 1 inch - 1 1/2 half lower than stock, but I want it sitting around about another 1 1/2 inches lower.

As I picked up a tad of negativity toward drop spindles in the threads I read, I want to find out the alternatives. Can I just pick up some lower springs or are there geometry issues I need to address? I have found some McGaughys spindles off a local guy at a sharp price...I am wondering what the negatives are and has anyone had any experience fitting these in combo with Wilwoods? It is running 18 x 8.5 rims up front so I hear this helps. I dont want to go the tubular arm route just yet if I can help it.

Lastly, what sort of spring rate should I look for? It's running an iron top SBC at the moment (love to go LS...maybe down the road a bit :smoke:)

Oh and Vendors feel free to chime in..it wouldnt be the first time I've brought stuff in from the states :)


Simmo – Cool ElCamino! It looks like your new toy already has some good modifications to the suspension. The car looks pretty low already. If you’re going to be pushing this car hard and it doesn’t already have a set of Trailing Arm Braces, you should consider them.



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Are you going to convert it to right-hand drive? We’ll keep watching your progress.

[Simmo]

Simmo – Cool ElCamino! It looks like your new toy already has some good modifications to the suspension. The car looks pretty low already. If you’re going to be pushing this car hard and it doesn’t already have a set of Trailing Arm Braces, you should consider them.



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Are you going to convert it to right-hand drive? We’ll keep watching your progress.

Haha cheers, looks like a POS but it's surprisingly solid having spent it's first 20 years in CA and the next 20 odd in a part of the country where it's protected from salt by some alps...

It's only running a mild SBC but the braces look like cheap insurance. It's still running beat up stock trailing arms too so they'll be binned, could be a good combo. Yeah your right about the ride height, I'll think I'll loose too much travel for our rubbish roads lol, the Hi Vol sumps 100mm off the ground already so in hindsight it mite be best to leave it as is.

As it's over 20 y.o the rules here allow it to stay left hook. Definately a bonus! Cheap insurance an licensing too :)

[MonzaRacer]

OK so it looks like you have good upper rear control arms. Spend some cash on good lowers tubular or aluminum(Metco?) with something like a johnny joint or like the from joints of the rear uppers.
Up front good control arms, tall ball joint all around and/or the L&H or ATS spindles from SpeedTech.
If you want good handling with going lower also look at www.ridetech.com as you could use double adjustable rear shocks and CoolRide and double adjustable ShockWaves up front, if you want less cutting CoolRide or Ridetech Coilovers might be right where you want it as both might give you height adjustability.
As for swapping "tagged" springs unless your rich your gonna have 10 sets till you get exactly what you want or a happy medium from a kit.
Honestly take a look at Ridetech and the Coil over as a double adjustable would probably do more than what you want, heck even the Singles are supposed to be like almost as good as doubles unless your going to do a lot of track days and need more adjust-ability.
The neat part about Air Ride or coil overs from Ridetech are solid research, known companies in production and development and from my look at the Coilovers it sure wouldnt be hard to readjust from show height to track. Just long allen wrench and the spanner wrench and one of the cheaper aluminum "race" jacks available.
but honestly too low is trailer queen, and too high just means you need to readjust.
Now with air ride you can have frame scraping attitude or ride height at touch of button.
Ridetech has tubular arms and yes you can step up to L&H or ATS style spindles,, and those let you use Corvette brakes!