Set 20 bearings don't last long for me...

[dontlifttoshift]

So here it is, it's not the bearing's fault, it's a 20x10 wheel with a 3 1/2" backspace running a 295-45/20. That's a 30.5" tall tire on a wheel with no backspace......I can really only run maybe another inch of backspace for a total of 4.5, I don't think that is going to save my bearings. I am seriously contemplating a floating axle setup but am concerned that my (lack of) backspace and very large overall diameter will still cause me problems.

When I put them together they are tight and I am running the thick currie retainer plate with another ushaped plate against it. I bent the retainers last year so I doubled them up. After an autocross event I have .015" to .025" of endplay, to me that's not acceptable. With that endplay the car drives fine and they don't howl, and on disassembly they look fine. i thought the wedding band was walking on me but I tried pressing back tight (I was going to tack it in place) they didn't budge, so I don't think they moved.

Looking for help or input on how to make this as bulletproof as I can as I do drive (and autocross) the car a lot and I am sick of changing axle bearings. I am on my second set in a month and am pretty sure they will be sloppy by the time I am done at the KC goodguys show.

Soooo, any opinions are welcome.

Thanks
Donny

[dontlifttoshift]

Got back from KC and have upwards of .060" of endplay....glad I made it home.

So maybe I should have put this in the disc brake section and labeled "knockback".....I will call Baer later......

[BADDRIDE II]

Check out TheGMR.com Speak with Jason about your concerns. He is a great guy & has a an extensive background in floater rears. His PT floater kit will easily handle your tall/wide tires. With such large tires and harsh driving conditions you need a wide bearing spread...GMR's are almost twice that of the competitor. They are pricier than the others, but you get top notch product designed specifically for just your situation. Hope this helps.

[dontlifttoshift]

I sent Jason an email.......a week ago......

I directed him to this thread and I have been patiently waiting.

Thanks for the reply

Donny

[The GMR]

I did not receive an email, or at least did not see it.

I have a few email addresses, which one did you send it to? There is a good chance I missed it given how busy we are and the volume I see everyday.

Please let me know, Here are my 3 main email addresses.

[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

Thanks and sorry for any confusion / frustration.

Jason

[Bryce]

Got back from KC and have upwards of .060" of endplay....glad I made it home.

So maybe I should have put this in the disc brake section and labeled "knockback".....I will call Baer later......

I missed this one too. On my dads drag car (moser axles with 9" housing, small for ends) we noticed this same problem. We bent one of the axle retainer plates. This was on street driving and a few passes down the 1/8th. We noticed that the retainers ID was too big and did not make perfect contact with the outer bearing race. So we built three piece aluminum ones that made 100% contact with the bearing. no issues yet.

[dontlifttoshift]

Bryce, that's interesting, I never gave that a thought. I will have my next set of bearings tomorrow and will look at that, might try it and see if we can get through the next event.

I am trying to picture it, but 3pc aluminum retainers? A picture would be golden if you got it.

Also, FWIW, I have pretty much decided to go floater, just trying to figure out a brake package that will work for me and my car.

Donny

[Bryce]

Sorry I dont have a picture.

Picture two "U" shaped retainers built from flat plate slidding around the axle from opposite sides (top and bottom). Now to get the full 100% contact with the bearing you need to fill the gap on the "U".

[dontlifttoshift]

Got it, thanks. Right now it's just the currie heavy duty full plates with another ushaped plate over it.

[parsonsj]

Donny, where does the play come from? Why can't you just put the parts back where they were? In other words, I get the knock back part... but I don't get the new bearing part. Help a cognitively-challenged old fella out. :)

[dontlifttoshift]

John,

I'm a little ashamed to admit that, I really don't know what the problem is.

Pulled the car apart last winter, retainers were bent, straightened them and reassembled with new bearings and everything was tight. Drove to Goodguys Joliet, first trip out only 75 miles away, autocrossed (poorly) and drove home. Prepping the the next week for SCCA autox noticed some endplay, tried to tighten retainers, they were tight. removed the axles, maybe the wedding band walked, tight. Decided to replace bearings, pressed together, assembled. A OK! Went to SCCA got home and noticed a little endplay, decided to push my luck and see how far we could take it (don't tell my wife, she gets nervous). Drove to Kansas, autocrossed drove home listening to them howl the whole way home. I smelled axle grease once in a while, they were trashed. I have to pull the axles yet, but I don't think reassembly will fix it.

Clear as mud? I wish I could be more specific about what is happening to the bearings but truthfully I just don't know. I know if I put new ones in it works for a while.

If this were the front end I would repack and snug up the nut. I think I have read about guys shimming preload into the bearing, but my theory has always been too loose is better than too tight when it comes to bearings.

I am sure there is something I am missing, and will look harder at this set of bearings to determine what is failing. Is it possible the bearings/races are wearing that much that fast because they are overloaded? Maybe I need to double check my reassembly procedure, possibly the bearings aren't as tight as i think they are. More and more I am starting to think it doesn't really matter anyways cause there is no way a single bearing can carry that kind of load.

The funny part is, I don't have a knock back problem.......drum brakes......

[Bow Tie 67]

I have had issues with the set 20 bearings gaining end-play.

Here is a pic of the outer bearing seals interior.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2282894720065608932tcFwZb)

First off you need a solid foundation for the outer seal retention.( One that wont distort from axle side-loads ) Second the outer seal needs some crush to seal correctly. If you look at the pick you can see were the outer bearing race rides against the interior of the outer seal. The 6 little rubber feet, as I call them, are deformed from being beaten back during side-loads. In my application after taking measurements, I added an 18 gauge steel shim. I place the shim in the axle end bore then install the bearing axle assembly, this puts more pre-load on the assembly reducing the NEW end-play to .003 The results so far after one event seem good. The problem I have been having, this is my third set of bearings, is outer seal failure from the axle's back and forth movement. ;

[dontlifttoshift]

Found sometime for the car. Real number for end play right now is .040"....my eye isn't as calibrated as I thought. The retainers are both bent, both meaning the two retainers I have stacked are bent on each side.

So the question is, will 5/8" aluminum (I have a lot of it) be strong enough? I can get whatever I need as far as materials go, so let me know what you think. Next question, is the center bore of the currie retainer correct or should make it smaller?

For my application this is an excersize in futility but I would lime to see if I can correct before I go to the floater.

[CarlC]

Does anyone have a cross-sectional drawing of how this goes together, along with the bearing type? If memory serves it's some kind of single row TRB with a sort-of thrust ring to keep the axle contained.

[Bryce]

i think the center bore is one of the biggest issues. You could calculate the load at 1G and the contact are to determine the pressure on the retainer, then choose the apporpriate thickness.

[Bow Tie 67]

Here are pics of the bearing.

Timken Race PN# U365L Bearing PN# U399A

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2548068360065608932ydtbGl)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2827740810065608932sZTOkV)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2662858430065608932TdUwrA)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2041140390065608932xSmRbU)

Crush on seal expands outer rubber to seal bore of axle end

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2111459880065608932quPHHe)

Pic of new seal and the " rubber feet " that contact the bearing

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2452018910065608932UvNTvH)

Bear brake adapter / bearing retainer 1/8" steel

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2408725790065608932TrSDeE)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2614306010065608932pwauig)

It has a step machined that captures the seals edge

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2930823500065608932StMlcz)

pic of shim I installed to take up initial end-play

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2020390100065608932CcXDgh)

Pressed on axle with retaining collar

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2396532690065608932ASKsSy)

[CarlC]

Ugh (the bearing guy in me shivers.) I hate those single taper designs. Retainer cap deflection, thrust ring wear, or outer seal housing crush. That design was never meant to take a heavy load axially away from the center of the axle.

Here's something that's on my short list of rear end upgrades. Dual TRB's are always preferable over a single, but I'm going to try one with a twist.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[parsonsj]

Carl, if you're going with dual bearings... You might as well go floater. That's their primary advantage.

[CarlC]

Take a close look jp. That's a single-piece outer ring/double cup with an engineered preload once the cones are captured. No adjustments, shims, etc needed. Think face grind control on the cones.

[Bow Tie 67]

Is it safe to assume, that setup would require special housing ends and / or axles?

[dontlifttoshift]

Carl, there is a bearing guy inside you?? Tell the bearing guy to tell us more about your double taper setup.

small update on my stuff. 99% Sure that gmr will be sending me a floater package soon. Until
then I decided to try a heavy duty retainer. 5/8" aluminum with 2.655" center bore with the currie plate over that to keep the nuts from digging in. We will see how that works....

[parsonsj]

That's a single-piece outer ring/double cup with an engineered preload once the cones are captured. No adjustments, shims, etc needed. Think face grind control on the cones.Okay... but that describes a floater setup too. I must be missing something.

[CarlC]

The basics are the same, a DB TRB arrangement, but when two standard TRB's are used there must be some kind of adjustment mechanism. A nut, spacers, shims, etc. to get the final preload set correctly is needed. This bearing requires none of that. Press it on, retain it with a sweat'ed on sleeve or AN nut, and the preload adjustment is done and set to an engineered requirement. There will be, at most, a couple thou endplay without having to interpret what the actual setting would be (manual adjustment.)

Think of the original front axle TRB's used on 1st-gen Camaros. They need to be adjusted. To make things easier and more reliable in the long-run, the OE's went to a non-adjustable hub unit. Think C6 Corvette. That however is a two-row ball bearing and there has been some weakness shown in the stock design, hence the HD SKF parts. Overall it is an excellent design that lasts under normal circumstances for bazilloins of miles. The next step up would be a TRB set with an engineered preload. That is not so easy to do with a TRB set, especially in the restrictive packaging envelope of a front hub. There is a lot more room to work in a rear axle, hence that's where I'm going with this one. It's definitely a special housing design, and getting the sealing done the way I want will be a serious challenge.

I don't like the single TRB design for several reasons. First, there's no rolling friction component when the axle is loaded away from the center of the car. It's sliding, and that is going to mean wear over time. Wear on the thust ring is going to mean an increase in the TRB set clearance (clearance can be + or -), which slides the rolling element assembly down the raceway toward the cup face, creates mis-alignment, edge loading, etc. Even under normal circumstances the axle is going to try to walk out of the housing due to the angle of the taper. In 20 years of dealing with bearings, I have not seen a single case in a non-automotive industrial application where a single TRB with a thust collar is used. From a bearing point of view, the stock GM C-clip design is better, but axle retainment is non-existent beyond the clip.

[BADDRIDE II]

Ugh (the bearing guy in me shivers.) I hate those single taper designs. Retainer cap deflection, thrust ring wear, or outer seal housing crush. That design was never meant to take a heavy load axially away from the center of the axle.

Here's something that's on my short list of rear end upgrades. Dual TRB's are always preferable over a single, but I'm going to try one with a twist.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifIn theory this seems to be a step better than a single bearing........but since it is still a semi-floater axle that will ALWAYS bear axially load, the inner bearing will see much more stress than the outer. Think about it...picture both these bearings rotating in tandem, then picture one end of a jump rope (extreme simulation of axle under load) exiting the inner bearing toward center section, as the axle (jump rope) rotates, it thrusts up and down/side to side on this inner bearing ultimately killing it. So you will see even if you ran three bearings inline it would not change the fact that the semi-floater axle always will attack that inner bearing the hardest. Basically this design has just transferred the stress from the outer bearing to the inner. The only similarity this set up has in relation to a Full Floater is that it incorporates two bearings, but since the Full Floater axle experiences no axial load the two bearing design works.....other than that they are miles apart. At best this setup will only slightly prolong the need to replace bearings.

[Bow Tie 67]

The hub will place axial loads on the bearings in a floater.

[BADDRIDE II]

The hub will place axial loads on the bearings in a floater.

Yes, but much different......it is applied in a much, much more balanced/controlled way so to speek. No axle hanging off the hub applying uneven down/side force to the bearings. Kinda like the effect an unbalanced crank or mis-aligned main cap bores has on main bearings and or end play.....no good and will most definately see a short life. Floaters take the weight directly on top of the hub/bearings without the added wobble/forces of the semi-floater axle designs. The large dual TB's of floater hubs can take that abuse....also important is a wide bearing spread in the hub body design......not all take advantage of this. Sorry if my last post made it sound like floater equiped cars float on air:doh:

[BADDRIDE II]

Just as a reminder and keeping as simple as possible.........it IS the semi-floater AXLE design that is the root of the problem.......eliminate the direct link between hub and axle and done (like Full Floater). Let the hub be a hub....let the axle be an axle.......

[Bow Tie 67]

Got it, for my application sticking with a set20 is cost effective for now, depending on if the shim extends the service life of the seal past two seasons.

[The WidowMaker]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Bear brake adapter / bearing retainer 1/8" steel



that retainer looks thicker than 1/8th. are my eyes seeing something different?

[The WidowMaker]

the common link seems to be that the retainers are bending. todd had the issue and ive read about numerous others as well including in this thread. is anybody having an issue with the bearing while the retainer has stayed completely flat?

[parsonsj]

Carl, I hear you about the use of TRB bearings. The whole notion of only using one with some sort of bolt on retainer is just poor design... though millions of cars use 'em.

I'm interested in how you might use that dual TRB setup, but a full floater has dual TRB (and big ones too, since they aren't limited to the inside of a 3" housing tube). If you're going to go to the effort of a dual TRB, why not just go the the remaining bit and put a floater in there?

[Bow Tie 67]

the common link seems to be that the retainers are bending. todd had the issue and ive read about numerous others as well including in this thread. is anybody having an issue with the bearing while the retainer has stayed completely flat?

First off the retainer is 1/4" not 1/8" and I have not experienced retainer bending. My setup uses floating brake calipers so knock-back is irrelevant in my case. What I have had is seal failure do to axle movement, which I hope will be eliminated by closing up the axial play with the shim behind the bearing race.

Below is a pic of an old race, I'm not sure what causes this, maybe corrosion? Inspecting the TRB roller ends shows no wear, although I'm not sure how long I had this bearing on the car. If I had to guess, 3k miles with 2 hard track days and 2 autocross events. The Left bearing seal gives up the ghost first, as most events run clockwise, I'm on my third bearing assy for the left, where the right has been done once.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2105902930065608932EJbaMl)

[Bryce]

Carl, there is a bearing guy inside you?? Tell the bearing guy to tell us more about your double taper setup.

small update on my stuff. 99% Sure that gmr will be sending me a floater package soon. Until
then I decided to try a heavy duty retainer. 5/8" aluminum with 2.655" center bore with the currie plate over that to keep the nuts from digging in. We will see how that works....

Good luck, I hope this works for you.

[dontlifttoshift]

Thanks, Bryce. I figured it was worth a try. My "super retainers" ended up being a tad larger than I wanted on the id due to a misunderstanding between the me and the boring bar but they are still way smaller (the actual number is written somewhere) than the id of the currie plates.

I put nearly 200 easy miles on the car yesterday and GG Indy is this weekend so that should be a healthy workout for it. After that I'll be welding new snouts on and making a significant improvement in my braking capabilities......

[CarlC]

In theory this seems to be a step better than a single bearing........but since it is still a semi-floater axle that will ALWAYS bear axially load, the inner bearing will see much more stress than the outer. Think about it...picture both these bearings rotating in tandem, then picture one end of a jump rope (extreme simulation of axle under load) exiting the inner bearing toward center section, as the axle (jump rope) rotates, it thrusts up and down/side to side on this inner bearing ultimately killing it. So you will see even if you ran three bearings inline it would not change the fact that the semi-floater axle always will attack that inner bearing the hardest. Basically this design has just transferred the stress from the outer bearing to the inner. The only similarity this set up has in relation to a Full Floater is that it incorporates two bearings, but since the Full Floater axle experiences no axial load the two bearing design works.....other than that they are miles apart. At best this setup will only slightly prolong the need to replace bearings.

Is it as good a full-floater? Nope. There are plenty of advantages of a full-floater, but there are disadvantages as well. However, I do disagree with several points you make. How does the "stress" move from the outer bearing to the inner? What happened to that same "stress" when only a thrust collar was used? Also, what is "slightly prolong", and how was that derived?

jp, much of my reasoning is personal. I want to keep the brake and rim package that is on the car, and I may not be able to given the increase in envelope size of the full-floater hub. This bearing has a bore size 1/4" larger than the single row ball it would replace, so I believe I can make an adapter for the current axle and just make a new housing end. Is it as easy as purchasing a full-floater? Nope, but I don't always take the easy path. It's that stubborn streak to do something different, and I'm a cheap SOB sometimes ;-)

Matt, can you get a better photo of that cup? The coloring makes it difficult to see.

[parsonsj]

jp, much of my reasoning is personal. I want to keep the brake and rim package that is on the car, and I may not be able to given the increase in envelope size of the full-floater hub. This bearing has a bore size 1/4" larger than the single row ball it would replace, so I believe I can make an adapter for the current axle and just make a new housing end. Is it as easy as purchasing a full-floater? Nope, but I don't always take the easy path. It's that stubborn streak to do something different, and I'm a cheap SOB sometimes ;-)I'll forgive you... but only if you document how you go about all of it. I want to see how you solve these problems. :)

[The WidowMaker]

First off the retainer is 1/4" not 1/8" and I have not experienced retainer bending. My setup uses floating brake calipers so knock-back is irrelevant in my case. What I have had is seal failure do to axle movement, which I hope will be eliminated by closing up the axial play with the shim behind the bearing race.

thats what i thought/feared. im looking forward to your results.

[Bow Tie 67]

Matt, can you get a better photo of that cup? The coloring makes it difficult to see.

I should have mentioned the Red line at the bottom is from a marker when making my shims. I'll try and get a better pic also.

[BADDRIDE II]

Is it as good a full-floater? Nope. There are plenty of advantages of a full-floater, but there are disadvantages as well. However, I do disagree with several points you make. How does the "stress" move from the outer bearing to the inner? What happened to that same "stress" when only a thrust collar was used? Also, what is "slightly prolong", and how was that derived?


jp, much of my reasoning is personal. I want to keep the brake and rim package that is on the car, and I may not be able to given the increase in envelope size of the full-floater hub. This bearing has a bore size 1/4" larger than the single row ball it would replace, so I believe I can make an adapter for the current axle and just make a new housing end. Is it as easy as purchasing a full-floater? Nope, but I don't always take the easy path. It's that stubborn streak to do something different, and I'm a cheap SOB sometimes ;-)

Matt, can you get a better photo of that cup? The coloring makes it difficult to see.

Hey Carl, YES...plenty of advantages to the right full floater....but am all ears though as too the dis-advantages? Do you think this set-up will solve known semi-floater issues? Will both bearings wear evenly by your calculations? If not which one do you think will wear first and why? Slightly prolong means Slightly prolong.....I believe this is as I said "one step better"..........sorry but is just my opinion, not meant to offend. Good luck!

[The GMR]

shipped out last week.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


Jason

[dontlifttoshift]

Got it this morning.....all my Wilwood stuff showed up yesterday. This is going to be killer....

Thanks

Donny

[Bryce]

congrats!


Got it this morning.....all my Wilwood stuff showed up yesterday. This is going to be killer....

Thanks

Donny

[BADDRIDE II]

Hey Donny, congradulations on purchase. Just checking in to see how your new setup is coming. Please post up pics when you get started! :drool:

[dontlifttoshift]

Thanks guys!

For the record the aluminum retainer bent after a trip to Indy and only four autocross runs. Now it wasn't bad, I didn't measure it but endplay would have been acceptable on a driver I suppose. Carl and Bowtie hit on several of the problems with this type of bearing but I woudl like to add that housing ends on my rear (currie) are made so the the retainer bends as the bolts are tightened. Not sure if that is correct or not. to me any part that starts bent will bend more that much easier.

Progress report on the floater? I got it all apart, ridetech T/A coilovers are on the way and the laser guy is cutting my caliper brackets. The GMR stuff is absolutely gorgeous and the mockup looks good so far. Caliper will be close to the body work it looks like but I think we'll be okay.....also waiting on a set of spindles but that's another thread. I should have it ready to go to the pileup on the 8th and then a two day scca autocorss the next weekend.

[TheJDMan]

Moser, Speedway Engineering, Howes and others have been manufacturing and selling full floating rear ends and parts for racing applications such as NASCAR and sportsman racing which have been track tested for over 25 years. Most of these floater parts are interchangable between manufactures which means the pricing is very competitive. For example, a complete Moser Circle Track 9" sportsman housing with floating hubs and axles in your choice of width sells for $879. If you have an existing rear end and simply want to add floating hubs you can buy a floater kit from Moser and others for around $450.

[dontlifttoshift]

Steve, that's cool. I was aware of the floater kits available from those other vendors but decided to go with GMR parts. I felt it was more inline for what [U]I[U] wanted to do with the car.

I read your posts on another thread and this one sounds very similar. The pricing you mention is very tempting, especially compared to $1,887 for GMR's kit, but I didn't hear any information about other floater kits being stronger or better quality, just cheaper and more common.

I have the GMR parts and am waiting for my housing to come back from the powdercoater. I can't say anything about anyone else's floater kit as this is my first experience with such an animal, but can say that GMR's quality is VERY good and Jason's help on the phone has been more than outstanding. Honestly what sold me on GMR is the crush proof collar that goes between both bearings and perfectly sets preload by torquing the nut to 100 ft lbs. Set it and forget it.

[The GMR]

Thanks for the kind words!

Donny, your GMR Signature wheel bearing socket and Axles have shipped I will PM you with the tracking numbers.

Thanks
Jason

[wmhjr]

Moser, Speedway Engineering, Howes and others have been manufacturing and selling full floating rear ends and parts for racing applications such as NASCAR and sportsman racing which have been track tested for over 25 years. Most of these floater parts are interchangable between manufactures which means the pricing is very competitive. For example, a complete Moser Circle Track 9" sportsman housing with floating hubs and axles in your choice of width sells for $879. If you have an existing rear end and simply want to add floating hubs you can buy a floater kit from Moser and others for around $450.

There was another thread that discussed ad nauseum the FACT that stating that this is a $450 change is more than just misleading. It's just wrong. Period.

Let's be clear. If you're building, a full floater is definitely something to look at if you're going to be pushing your car on the track. If your car is already built, it is "possible" that assuming you do the work yourself, and are capable of doing so, that you could do this for about $600 including shipping but excluding labor - and excluding brakes, etc. If every single star aligns.

However, if you have an already "completed" (whatever that means) car, it is quite likely that the cost of changing from a non-floating rear end to a floater will be SUBSTANTIALLY higher - usually be at least 3-4 times that amount to start with. And that assumes that you will have the ability to add the floater setup WITHOUT changing track width, which would also require either re-hooping or replacing rear wheels due to clearance issues.

Yes, floaters have been competition tested for many years. So has Fuel Injection. So have all sorts of other products. As with anything, generalizations such as the $450 comment are dramatically misleading and can cause some serious misunderstandings. Steve, I applaud your "forward looking" engineering approach. I just have to draw the line when such changes are both oversimplified and underestimated.

[TheJDMan]

There was another thread that discussed ad nauseum the FACT that stating that this is a $450 change is more than just misleading. It's just wrong. Period.

Let's be clear. If you're building, a full floater is definitely something to look at if you're going to be pushing your car on the track. If your car is already built, it is "possible" that assuming you do the work yourself, and are capable of doing so, that you could do this for about $600 including shipping but excluding labor - and excluding brakes, etc. If every single star aligns.

However, if you have an already "completed" (whatever that means) car, it is quite likely that the cost of changing from a non-floating rear end to a floater will be SUBSTANTIALLY higher - usually be at least 3-4 times that amount to start with. And that assumes that you will have the ability to add the floater setup WITHOUT changing track width, which would also require either re-hooping or replacing rear wheels due to clearance issues.

Yes, floaters have been competition tested for many years. So has Fuel Injection. So have all sorts of other products. As with anything, generalizations such as the $450 comment are dramatically misleading and can cause some serious misunderstandings. Steve, I applaud your "forward looking" engineering approach. I just have to draw the line when such changes are both oversimplified and underestimated.


My Bad! The Moser floating hub kit is $455, sorry I didn't mean to be misleading.
http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/moser-dbp-hub-packages.html

Or, you can buy a complete new 9" full floater housing with no brackets in your choice of widths for $879 with a lifetime warranty all you add is the center section and weld on your mounts.
http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/moser-9-full-floater-9.html

FWIW, you can buy the $879 9" floater housing and still have $1000 left over to buy a center section when compared to the cost of the GMR hub kit. And for the record, I have never questioned the quality of the GMR products eventhough they make it a practice of running down the quality of their competition. What I have questioned is the excessive cost, and in point of fact even BadrideII has made references to the high cost.

[The GMR]

I have never questioned the quality of the GMR products eventhough they make it a practice of running down the quality of their competition.

Please inform me of where I "run down" the competition. I have nothing but the up-most respect for the other builders and manufactures in this industry, the simple fact is that until I decided to step out of the box to create a product line that is different there was nothing in our market segment. In essence I have created a whole new section of the market catering to clients who demand the best quality. I understand that our investment structure is higher then the industry average, but then again so is our quality.

Not only do I respect my competition but I also work with them, right now as I type this a GMR set of hubs is sitting at Moser ready to be welded onto a Moser housing, this is for another member on this forum as well. I do build housings, and would prefer to build complete rear end setups but I have no problem with competition using our products, I even shipped the parts to Moser for free.

thanks
Jason