Outer Tie Rod Question

[astroracer]

If you check out my Bad Ast (https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?20086-The-BAD-AST-Project-Faze-II/page11) thread (go to the bottom of page 11) you will see I am modifying the steering arms on a pair of dropped Astro spindles.
A little info:
In order to work with my suspension design and Corvette rack this is where the outer tie rod point needs to be. For wheel clearance I am also flipping the tierod over so it points down instead of up. This will either require me to machine a tapered sleeve to use the stock Corvette tie rod OR I could drill out the spindle for a 5/8th's bolt and run a Heim End. I kind of like the Heim End solution as it would also let me do some adjusting on the bump steer if I need to.
Any thoughts or concerns? I know the taper would be better for the joint but is there a real issue with running a straight bolt?
Thanks for your time
Mark

[David Pozzi]

If I'm reading that thread right, there is no way would I bend a cast iron spindle steering arm. If it was steel, - maybe but not cast iron.
Drilling for a rod end is OK but the hole usually is oversize and loose, you wind up depending on the clamping of the nut to hold it in place. It's better to drill undersize and ream it out.

[Scott LaPointe]

I second the recommendation to not bend a cast spindle. If you follow the advice to drill the hole undersize and ream, the straight bolt should not give you any touble. I have run that type of set up on several circle track cars and found it to have less slop than the stock tie rod set up when setting bump steer.

[funcars]

I also agree with reaming the hole to fit, but I usually go with a ream about .001 undersize - so for a .625 hole I'd use a .624 ream. Most all bolts are slightly undersize from .0015 for good ones to .005 for garden variety grade 8. Spacers are avalible from lots of folks and it's best to use a safety washer.

Good luck

[astroracer]

Okay... Thanks guys. David, any options here? I can design a bolt on steering arm I suppose but then I would be worried about the stress in the spindle which isn't designed for that...
The Astro spindle is the same as the B bodies from '77 to '96 except the lower ball stud is 5/8th's instead of 1/2". Mine is cast iron I'm sure, but I'll do a spark test on it tonight to verify.
Any advice would be welcome, this is a show stopper at this point.
Mark

[astroracer]

Well, I don't feel quite as sick as I did a few minutes ago. I talked to Mike (Iron Mike's) in Flint and he said the spindle will definetly be cast steel. Cast iron is too brittle and aftermarket arm manufacturers go with the steel because it's easier to do then the ductile iron most oem's use. He wants to see the arms but he says he has bent steel arms farther than what I need, for 4 x 4 and offroad guys, and had no issues down the road. He thinks it is do-able. I hope so.
In any event I think I will start looking into Corvette spindles and what kind of tear-up those would be to my geometry points...
Even if I have to build new cobtrol arms in the future.
Thanks again guys, you have helped big time.
Mark

[astroracer]

Just an update: You can follow the rest of the build in my Bad Ast thread.
To much movement to heat & bend. I talked with a few people about this and the end decision was cut and weld. Ideally I also needed to invert the ballstud (ballstud pointing down, rather than up, as the stock Astro was oriented) so cutting and rebuilding was beneficial. I also talked with the owner of Iron Mike's (Mike) in Flint and, after looking at my situation, he ultimately recommended the cut and weld solution. He had the spindles in his hands and did spark test. He said they are a good quality cast steel and will weld beautifully. from the welding I did on the repositioned tie rod ends he is right. They weld very nicely.
That is what I've been working on.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC001Fvi-3.jpg
I had yesterday off so I broke out the sawsall and grinders and modified the two spindles.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC006Fvi-3.jpg
You can see in thes pics I have ground the existing support ribs down to the base web thickness. I did this on both sides.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
This will give the new support plates a solid foundation for welding. Everything has been ground down and chamfered for good weld penetration.
I did a LOT of grinding yseterday. It was hot and I was sweating and my arms were ORANGE...
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC012Fvi-1.jpg

Making the fishplates to support the new tie rod position. The plates are 3/8 inch thick and will be plenty stout when welded in.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC019Fvi-1.jpg
If you look back at the first couple pics you can see that the old arm "hung" out in space. I am taking the new plates all the way in to the lower ball stud area. I think these will be plenty strong.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC020Fvi-1.jpg
I have the RH spindle ready to go to Mike for welding and just need to make the fishplates for the LH spindle.
Once this is all welded together the modified portion on the spindle will be stronger than the unmolested part... As you can tell I left the plates a little oversized. After the welding I will grind everything down and make it look purty.

[David Pozzi]

Bottom photo, the nearest plate, I'd chamfer the left hand side of this back 45 degrees or the weld isn't going to get in there. I'd chamfer it fully from the outside back to the inside edge 45 degrees. I'd do the same on the other side. One of my Farm jobs was to weld Ripper Shanks back together, 1" thick X 3" wide, had to chamfer them and weld.
David

[astroracer]

Thanks for your input Dave. I left the plates oversize so Mike (the welder) can do what he needs to do to get everything fully welded. He will have Carte Blanche on the final fitment for welding. I don't know if he will even use the plates I made... My task was to get the arms to a weldable state and I think I did that so we'll have to wait and see what Mike comes up with.
My question to you would be, do you think this will be good enough, strong enough? In talking to Mike he has no issue doing this as, like I said previously, he has done a ton of offroad stuff just like this with no issues. I think I am confortable with it. Would you be?
Thanks for your help sir, very much appreciated.
Mark

[JRouche]

Hmmm? Im not a fan of welding on certain parts. Some of those are brake pedal arms, steering shafts and spindles. BUT!! I have, Id rather not if there is another option. And yes, sometimes there is not.

Spindles would be my last pick for some welding mods, mainly cause thats the whole ball of wax. You loose that mount and it could mean you eating an entire family in a minivan on the freeway. Not something I could deal with.

A simple spark test would not be enough for me to decide to weld on a spindle, not when there are other fixes that dont leave anything to a "guess". And sure as not, the spindles are steel not iron, dont think the modern cars used cast iron spindles.

But the thing is it could still be a semi high carbon cast steel. Without positive carbon content you really DONT know what you are welding. If it has even a couple of points higher of carbon then the plates you used it WILL have carbon migration. And that might be enough to cause a weak joint, or at least a joint that is not perfect. And when you are talking about a car spindle you really should be looking to make the most perfect joint that you can.

So how do you do that? Well, Im not sure. I would start with NOT introducing a metal (the plates) that you are not certain they are the same make up (mainly carbon content).

The spindles could be welded without the plates. To keep it on the safe side I would weld the spindles like they were cast iron. Some decent pre-heating, a good welding process (Id use stick or TIG) and a proper filler, Id use a filler high in nickle and one that Id use for cast iron even though the casting is steel. High nickle fillers have great performance.

And then Id follow it up with a good post heat cycle.

But the last thing I would do is introduce some mild steel plate into the weld pool. You really are working with an unknown at this point. You dont have ANY idea what the carbon content of the spindles are, its just a guess.

I would always be thinking in the back of my head while running down the road at 60mph+ if I did the right thing buy using the mild steel plates.

And if there is not enough meat left over after you cut the spindles up that you really need the plates then it kinda sounds like a fix that you are chasing and not really fixing. JR

[astroracer]

Thanks JR,
I understand what you are saying and all of it is true. I AM concerned with these modifications but I really have no recourse at this point in time. I have talked with the person who is doing the welding and I feel he knows what it takes to get good results welding these arms up. In our discussions he also mentioned the carbon content and using nickle rod (stick) so I have to believe he can do the job at hand and make it safe.
The reason I am adding the plates is to increase the cross sectional dimension of the steering arm to improve it's load carrying abilities. Lets say these plates will carry the load instead of the welds. These plates also close off the gap between the arm and the lower ball stud lug to improve the load dispersion. If you look at the last pics I loaded you can see the entire "core" of the repositioned arm is the original cast steel. The new plates simply enclose the core and add thickness to the modification. The end result will be a steering arm that is the same thickness as the original "strengthning ribs" but solid all the way through.
Like yourself I am nervous with this "fix". I will be keeping my eye on these spindles and there will be a suspension redesign in the works.
I want to thank you for your concern and knowledge. It is very much appreciated.
Mark

[astroracer]

Here are the spindles, all welded up. I really don't think there is going to be an issue with these guys being unsafe. If you could see these things in person you would have to agree. Mike did an incredible job welding these up and he told me the tie rod end will break LONG before these will. I have to agree 100%. I will do some smoothing to eliminate stress risers and clean up the tierod areas but this is what we have. Any thoughts? Dave? JR?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/100_4038vi-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/100_4035vi-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/100_4037vi-1.jpg

[80 MONZTA]

In the pic's below, I saw this mod a couple of years ago for drifters. It looks nowhere near as strong as your mods do. Here is more info and pic's (http://www.gtfactory.jp/cms/page.php?15)
Lately I have seen a few others modifying spindles similar to to what you have done, but none of them have the car back on the road to test for durability. I am in about the same boat as you, I need move the outer tie rod location outward and lower for my Monza using S-10 spindles and a rack and pinion. But, for now I think I am just going to use the spindles as is, and see how bad it really is.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/file-1.php?id=12572
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/file-1.php?id=12573

[astroracer]

In the pic's below, I saw this mod a couple of years ago for drifters. It looks nowhere near as strong as your mods do. Lately I have seen a few others modifying spindles similar to to what you have done, but none of them have the car back on the road to test for durability. I am in about the same boat as you, I need move the outer tie rod location outward and lower for my Monza using S-10 spindles and a rack and pinion. But, for now I think I am just going to use the spindles as is, and see how bad it really is.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/file-1.php?id=12572
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/file-1.php?id=12573

That is kinda scary lookin. I hope my mods look a little more professional. Once these were ground down and smoothed out they look fantastic!
We also knocked off the caliper ears in preperation for the Corvette abutment brackets.
Outside view
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC016Fvi-1.jpg
Top View
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC019Fvi-2.jpg
inside View
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC018Fvi-1.jpg
Bottom View
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/08/MVC017Fvi-1.jpg
I am open to all comments on these. I do have to admit they look a bit beefier than the orange one posted above.... I do know there is a lot more weld and actual "arm" supporting the new location.