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View Full Version : 1967 Camaro Tubular Arms + QA1 = WAY too Low???



1967ls2
07-26-2011, 04:19 PM
I purchased a set of tubular control arms off ebay a while back. Prior to purchasing them I asked the seller if they would work with QA1 pro coil over shocks which he replied they would work fine. I let them sit on the shelf for about a year or so until I finally got around to installing them.

I removed the stock steel stamped upper and lower control arms from the car and installed the upper and lower tubular control arms in their place. Everything went in without any problems. I then installed the QA1 single adjustable pro coil shocks. The lower tubular control arms appeared to have a pocket for an OEM coil similar to the stock lower control arm and it also had the 2 nuts welded into the center of the shock mounting location. I installed the bottom of the coil by mounting it in the center of the pocket and attaching the supplied hardware through the welded nuts. The car was slammed to the ground.

I busted out the wrench to start raising the coil itself to hopefully raise the car. I cranked that sucker up as far as it would go but it didn't seem to raise the front of the car any but only seemed to compress the spring tighter and tighter. The front end appears to be bound soooo tightly that every little bump I hit is bone rattling and sounds as though I have no suspension up front at all. On top of that my car is still sooo low I drag my headers/exhaust on nearly everything.

I ended up dropping the lower tubular control arms down and putting about 1inch spacers in between the mounting point on the control arm itself and the shock so that it would raise the front end up some. This did accomplish rise my car's front end up a small amount but really the thing is still in the weeds.

Am I missing something here? Why is the front end sooo freakin low? The only adjustment knob on the shock itself is to adjust the rebound. The only other way I can see to adjust the shock is to crank that lower washer thing at the base of the spring but that only appears to be compressing the actual spring itself and not actually raising the car at all. installing spacers under the actual spring is not the actual way to raise the front end up I know, but what can I do to get the car's front end up so that hopefully I can let some of the tension off this spring so I actually have a shock in the front that absorbs the bumps in the road.

Thanks for any advice in advance!

dhutton
07-26-2011, 04:53 PM
What is the rate of the springs? Where are the shocks sitting in their travel range? Should be roughly in the middle. What are the extended and compressed lengths of your shocks?

Rod
07-26-2011, 06:37 PM
I'm with Dutton sounds like you have the wrong spring rate, I looked at most of the Qa1 pro coil over kits and the highest spring rate in the kits was 250 lbs and I think the basic DSE kits start at about 55o lbs for a small block

1967ls2
07-27-2011, 08:29 AM
I am not really sure what the spring rate was when I ordered them. I had my buddies shop order them at the time. I have an 05 LS2 in there which should be about 100 lbs or so lighter than any motor I have ever had in there. What would be the suggested spring rate for that engine in my camaro?

1967ls2
07-27-2011, 11:03 AM
So I spoke to the "Support" at QA1. First off the guy was a complete jerk. He did however tell me that I can locate some sort of branding/stamp on the shock itself which will tell me what the spring rate is. I will check this out tonight hopefully. He said that for the 1967 Camaro with an LS2 most people run between a 350-450 lb spring rate. Once I figure out what my spring rate is I will be headed in the right direction to figure out if my springs in there now are too heavy or too light.

I am guessing the ones I have in there now would be too light? If they are too light then there isn't enough spring pressure to keep the car's weight up? The car would be compressing the "light" spring soo much that even raising the spring level with the spanner wrench wouldn't really accomplish raising the ride height up much because the weight of the car is too heavy for the "light" spring?

I think that sounds about right, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.

jknight16
07-27-2011, 01:32 PM
In addition to being the wrong spring rate they could easily be the wrong length springs and shocks. Grab those measurements too and we'll be able to give you some more insight into your issues.

dhutton
07-27-2011, 01:38 PM
The rate should be on the spring. Is your shock all the way compressed? That would indicate the rate is likely too low. If the shock is all the way extended that might indicate the shock is too short.

1967ls2
07-27-2011, 01:50 PM
Thank you for the replies. I will check the spring tonight to see what spring rate it is and I will also try to determine if the shock is all the way compressed or not. Hopefully I am on the right path to getting my car out of the dirt and a much smoother ride.

killer69
07-27-2011, 03:54 PM
Qa1 only has 2 different lengths of GMP kits the camaro uses the shorter one, i will tell you it is the spring rate, i bet you have 350 lb springs, i would never sell a 350 spring for anything, you can buy the springs seperately the part number you need is 10GSP450A this is a 450 lb spring or if you are going to track or AutoX it you may want to go to a 500 lb spring 10GSP500A the other thing to check is that the "T" bar is mounted on the inside of the spring pocket not the bottom side the way the factory shock would mount this will lift the car approx 1"
hope that helps

1967ls2
07-28-2011, 08:51 AM
Qa1 only has 2 different lengths of GMP kits the camaro uses the shorter one, i will tell you it is the spring rate, i bet you have 350 lb springs, i would never sell a 350 spring for anything, you can buy the springs seperately the part number you need is 10GSP450A this is a 450 lb spring or if you are going to track or AutoX it you may want to go to a 500 lb spring 10GSP500A the other thing to check is that the "T" bar is mounted on the inside of the spring pocket not the bottom side the way the factory shock would mount this will lift the car approx 1"
hope that helps

Thank you very much for the advice. The shock is mounted on the inside of the spring pocket on the lower control arm. I even had to put a 1 inch spacer in there under each mounting location to raise it up just a little. Although the vehicle is still in the weeds, I can't even get a finger in between the wheel well and the tire. I jacked up my camaro last night, turned both wheels to either side and tried to see if there was any part number identifying what the springs were or their spring rate but I don't see anything. The majority of the spring is not visible with the shocks installed as they go up into the shock tower and are hidden in the frame. I guess the only way to locate a part number on the shocks would be to actually pull the wheel off, pull the rotor assembly and then actually disconnect the control arms and pull the whole assembly out.

Ishmael
07-28-2011, 10:24 AM
If you asked at QA1 they would have suggested the 350lb spring for the aluminum engine - that's what they recommended for me twice.

1967ls2
07-28-2011, 10:38 AM
If you asked at QA1 they would have suggested the 350lb spring for the aluminum engine - that's what they recommended for me twice.

What did you end up going with? 450lb? How does your Camaro sit and when you adjust the shocks with the spanner wrench does it actually raise and lower the vehicle a noticeable amount?

When looking at my vehicle last night I believe there were probably between 10-15 or possibly more threads actually showing from the bottom of the shock mount to where the bottom of the spring is located. I guess I could try to get a few more turns on it but that spring is bound up soooooo tight I don't think it will raise the vehicle any higher and it will just wear me out and put added pressure on the spring itself.

Ishmael
07-28-2011, 08:14 PM
I went with the 350 lb. It was my understanding that the 450 was more in tune with the sbc. Mine isn't on the ground yet so I can't tell you anything other than what I was advised. I thought if I went with the 450 it might be a bit stiff given that I have a convertible and the cocktail shakers are out of it and its aluminum. Honestly though, they've recommended those springs to so many guys and the tech talked to me for way longer than I wanted to, you would think that the 350lb spring would be the right one for touring around in or they would have heard back. As soon as I read your first post I thought it was your spring rate. Blake would know so I think either you got 250s or I'm in for something crappy as well. By bound up do you mean that there is no space between the coils? If that's the case, stop trying to fight it, you need stiffer springs.

1967ls2
07-29-2011, 07:57 AM
There is space between the coils on the spring. When I first installed the QA1's the spring was all the way down at the bottom and there was literally no room between the fender well and the tire. I spent a while cranking on each side with the spanner wrench and probably moved the spring up about 10-15 threads if not more and the ride height did not change at all, at least it doesn't appear to be any higher. That's when I decided to put some spacers underneath the bottom shock mounting point in between the shock and the spring pocket on the lower control arm. Maybe I should just try to muscle the springs up more and hope that it does raise the ride height up a little. I would be happy with 1/2-1inch.

gdev_
07-29-2011, 08:44 AM
Do you know anything else about the control arms? Is it possible the spring bucket is dropped below stock to give a lowered ride height with stock coils? Might try putting the stock coils back in and see where it sits, and possibly eliminate another variable.

1967ls2
07-29-2011, 09:28 AM
I don't know much about the tubular control arms at this point. I purchased them off ebay years ago and like I mentioned before they just sat in the garage until I finally got around to installing them. I asked the seller before I purchased them if they were compatible with QA1 Coil Overs and he assured me that they were. I have checked out Global West control arms and the spring pocket appears to be in the same location. I sold the OEM control arms and springs as soon as the new ones went in so I can't re-install them sadly.

I will try to get some pictures of where the car sits now and also some pictures of the control arm assemblies/Coil Over location.

exwestracer
07-30-2011, 03:49 AM
There is space between the coils on the spring. When I first installed the QA1's the spring was all the way down at the bottom and there was literally no room between the fender well and the tire. I spent a while cranking on each side with the spanner wrench and probably moved the spring up about 10-15 threads if not more and the ride height did not change at all, at least it doesn't appear to be any higher. That's when I decided to put some spacers underneath the bottom shock mounting point in between the shock and the spring pocket on the lower control arm. Maybe I should just try to muscle the springs up more and hope that it does raise the ride height up a little. I would be happy with 1/2-1inch.

If you are up 15 threads on the perch, the springs are WAY too soft, and I'd bet you are sitting on the bump stop on the shock shaft. You should have maybe 5-6 threads showing below the locknut at your desired ride height. Keep in mind that your a arms were designed for the stock type springs. the spring bucket is 1/2 way out on the arm, so the spring rate needs to be nearly double what you would run on a true coil-over control arm where the shock mounts out by the ball joint. I believe you just have some mis-matched components there. A stiffer spring will fix the problem. The rate is usually etched into the flat coil surface on one end of the spring, or if they are painted springs it may be lettered right on the coils. The spring rate won't be reflected in the shock part#, unless that is QA1s weird way of doing things. They are 2 separate components...

1967ls2
07-31-2011, 07:16 PM
If you are up 15 threads on the perch, the springs are WAY too soft, and I'd bet you are sitting on the bump stop on the shock shaft. You should have maybe 5-6 threads showing below the locknut at your desired ride height. Keep in mind that your a arms were designed for the stock type springs. the spring bucket is 1/2 way out on the arm, so the spring rate needs to be nearly double what you would run on a true coil-over control arm where the shock mounts out by the ball joint. I believe you just have some mis-matched components there. A stiffer spring will fix the problem. The rate is usually etched into the flat coil surface on one end of the spring, or if they are painted springs it may be lettered right on the coils. The spring rate won't be reflected in the shock part#, unless that is QA1s weird way of doing things. They are 2 separate components...

So you would suggest a higher spring rate? I'm thinking I probably need to order the 450lb springs & when they come in pull the qa1's out & swap the springs. They probably sold me the 350's. Once I get them out hopefully I can figure out what spring rate they actually are. I think I am riding on the bump stops which is probably why when I hit a bump it is so extreme.

Scott LaPointe
08-01-2011, 08:12 PM
If you jack up the front of the car and the fenders lift off the tires like you want and don't come off the ground, it's definitely the spring rate. (If the shocks are too short the tires will lift without fender raising off the tire) I don't have experience with a Camaro so I would trust those that do when they say a 450lb spring is what you need. I know the 550 springs work for road courses in a '67 Chevelle with a 350 iron block with aluminum heads.

David Pozzi
08-01-2011, 10:15 PM
It's not wise to space the shock up. The shock can bottom out and be damaged internally, especially with such a low ride height. You want the car to hit the bump stops before the shock bottoms out.

exwestracer
08-02-2011, 01:29 PM
The stock springs are somewhere around 550-600 lb/in. for a smallblock. Those coilover kits are designed for a lower arm that mounts the spring much closer to the ball joint, so the spring rate doesn't need to be as high.

1967ls2
08-03-2011, 10:53 AM
It's not wise to space the shock up. The shock can bottom out and be damaged internally, especially with such a low ride height. You want the car to hit the bump stops before the shock bottoms out.

Thank you for the heads up. Last thing I want to do is damage the shocks especially since they cost so much money.


The stock springs are somewhere around 550-600 lb/in. for a smallblock. Those coilover kits are designed for a lower arm that mounts the spring much closer to the ball joint, so the spring rate doesn't need to be as high.

I see. I don't own a spanner wrench so I have to go to my buddies shop to see if I can raise the front end up any more by adjusting the spring since he has the correct wrench. I am thinking if that doesn't raise the front end up any then the spring rate is definitely too soft. Like I previously mentioned I have already adjusted the spring up about 10-15 threads on the shock. The tires should have already cleared the wheel well which makes me think the spring is just way too soft. Worse case scenario, I will have to pull the shocks out, attempt to locate a part number on the spring itself, and/or just order a higher spring rate and see if that doesn't remedy my situation.

Thanks again guys for all your help and support. I just want to be able to drive my car without scraping my exhaust on every driveway I pull into and not feel like I'm riding on cement tires every time I hit a pot hole.

mplecha
08-03-2011, 11:45 AM
Have you tried putting shims under the springs in the lower arm pockets? SC&C has some. I had to use quite a few when I did my swap.

1967ls2
08-04-2011, 09:26 AM
Have you tried putting shims under the springs in the lower arm pockets? SC&C has some. I had to use quite a few when I did my swap.

I'm not sure I know what your talking about. The QA1 coil over shocks don't have the springs sitting in the spring pocket area. The springs are attached to the shock itself. The bottom of the shock attaches to the spring pocket of the lower control arm and currently they are sitting 1 inch spacers to raise the ride height which still isn't enough.

mplecha
08-04-2011, 12:40 PM
My mistake.

Blown73
08-04-2011, 12:53 PM
What control arms are you using? If they are from ebay, I can take a few guesses as to which ones they are, but they could possibly be the culprit. I have a set of those on my Nova and with a 2" drop spring, it put the car on the ground. I put them into a car with stock LCA's and the springs were fine. Just my .02..

1967ls2
08-04-2011, 02:27 PM
What control arms are you using? If they are from ebay, I can take a few guesses as to which ones they are, but they could possibly be the culprit. I have a set of those on my Nova and with a 2" drop spring, it put the car on the ground. I put them into a car with stock LCA's and the springs were fine. Just my .02..

Sadly I purchased the upper and lower control arms years ago and just had them sitting on a shelf until about a year ago or so I finally decided to install them with the QA1 coil over shocks. Ebay's records don't go far enough back for me to see where or from who I purchased them from, I believe it was from an online merchant, not some random individual. They cost about $600 for uppers and lowers I believe. The ball joints are garbage but they are a temporary until I purchase better ones. The upper control arm seems to be fine but I have a sinking feeling that I am either going to have to purchase different lower control arms or go with a heavier spring rate.

The problem is I was at my buddies shop where I installed my front suspension and he had a set of Global West lower control arms and the spring pocket appeared to be in the exact same location/position as the ones I have on there now. I think that the spring rate is the culprit and I wont know what it is until I rip them out again and hopefully locate an identifying number on them somewhere and cross reference it with QA1 to see what the actual spring rate is. I will probably have to down the car for a while and ride my motorcycle until the new springs come in and hopefully that will remedy the situation.

Blown73
08-04-2011, 02:52 PM
Probably Performance Online products? http://www.performanceonline.com/Tubular-Control-Arms-c-932/ does that look familiar?

1967ls2
08-04-2011, 02:59 PM
You know, those do look awfully familiar and so does the price. I am almost positive they are the ones I have after looking at some of those close up pictures. Do you think those could be the issue? They say they are compatible with coil over shocks.

These http://globalwest.net/cta-79l.html from Global West appear to have a very similar mounting location for the coil over shock.

That just makes me think more that my spring rate is off.

exwestracer
08-05-2011, 04:58 AM
You know, those do look awfully familiar and so does the price. I am almost positive they are the ones I have after looking at some of those close up pictures. Do you think those could be the issue? They say they are compatible with coil over shocks.

These http://globalwest.net/cta-79l.html from Global West appear to have a very similar mounting location for the coil over shock.

That just makes me think more that my spring rate is off.

Block up the crossmember until the car is at the ride height you want. Measure the distance from the upper to lower coilover mounting bolts (the "eye to eye" length). The shock should be about 1/2 compressed (maybe a little less)at ride height. Measure from the top spring hat down to where the lower (threaded) perch would be if you had 5-6 threads showing underneath as I mentioned earlier. THis is your spring installed height.

Let's say it's 10". If your total sprung weight on the front is 2000lb, you need a spring that will sit at 10" with 1000lb (each side) on it. So a 12" 500lb rate would do the job, for example. But you need those measurements and weights. DON'T guess.