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wmhjr
07-24-2011, 10:34 AM
OK guys, as mentioned in a couple other threads I've concluded I need to immediately put an oil cooler in the poncho. At Motor state I was easily getting my oil temp into hte 260 range at Gingerman. At Heidts any doubt was immediately eliminated when I hit 300, and had to back way off and baby the car for the road course element. The cause of this is that my block is bottom filled to the freeze plugs in order to get the power from that pontiac standard block safely.

Currently I have an adapter plate mounted to the block with 2 1/2" NPT ports, which I installed 1/2" NPT to -10AN fittings. These currently go to a frame rail mounted Canton oil filter setup. My plan is to re-engineer that and have the lines instead go forward, to an oil filter somewhere in the vicinity of the engine bay, and then to a front mounted oil cooler in front of my radiator.

I have several questions.

1) Any recommendations on the most effective cooler? Frank has a pretty nifty looking unit that I'm interested in - it's in the Bull run racer, and can be had either with or without fans. I don't know that the fans would be helpful (pusher fans) considering the rad fans will be pulling through anyway, and I don't have much power available, so I'd probably have to run a new power line directly from the battery.

2) Even though the ports on the block will be 1/2" NPT, is -10AN enough for the lines? Pretty much anything they attach to will be 1/2" line connections. Would -12 in the lines themselves really help?

3) Engine temps have been relatively manageable. Normally I'm at 180-190. When the oil heats way up, the water temps also get up to 210-215, sometimes 220. However, it's briefly and I think it's possible that between the oil temp and heating up the hard block that reducing the oil temp may also result in a little drop in peak water temp when I'm really hammering. But that's just a theory. Thoughts?

4) At present, before the oil REALLY heats up, my oil pressure is about 75psi at start, and around 50-60 after warm-up. I'm concerned about pressure drops after adding all the volume/lines/cooler, but plan to run it as is and watch it. If pressure drops much at all, during the off season I'm pulling the engine and putting a higher pressure Melling pump in the motor. Thoughts?

I need to start this change quick, so any and all advice is very very welcome!

CamaroAJ
07-24-2011, 11:42 AM
i know everyone says you need -10AN for oil cooler lines but GM used 1/2" lines on all of their oil coolers on the corvettes. they even have a thermostat in it adapter.

Yelcamino
07-24-2011, 12:04 PM
I installed a PRC Extreme Duty oil cooler (http://www.prchotrod.com/products/prc-cooling-accessories.php) on my Chevelle.

It's pretty big so there weren't many mounting locations to choose from. I ended up putting it behind the driver side headlights. Even though it doesn't get direct ram air, plenty of air can get around the headlight assembly, especially when the fans kick on.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii131/hlumpp/Chevelle/Engine%20Oil%20Cooler/DSC01540.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii131/hlumpp/Chevelle/Engine%20Oil%20Cooler/DSC01539.jpg

Twentyover
07-24-2011, 12:11 PM
I would suggest hose size depends on the percentage of oil going through the cooler. If 100 % goes to the cooler (as it does on the little green race car) a -12 hose is probably warranted. If only a portion is diverted, a smaller hose size is probably acceptable.

On the green car, the factory provided a -8 hose to the cooler. Using that size hose,we'd get a dozen races out of a set of bearings. About 20 races out of -10 hoses, and I stopped racing before getting a good count on -12 hose. Also look at where you're taking your pressure readings from. We changed location from pump outlet to the block return plate to account for pressure loss in the lines and cooler.

wmhjr
07-24-2011, 01:12 PM
Greg, that's good - but scary info. In my case, 100% of the oil will go through the cooler. My pressure is coming from the block vic the distributor, so I think it's a pretty good indication of overall oil pressure. One of the questions is that the holes in the block itself are 1/2", and my guess is that the filter assembly (whichever I use) and the cooler itself have an inside diameter of no more than 1/2". So you do think that the larger gauge lines connecting them would improve things even if the fittings step down to 1/2"?

When you say a dozen or 20 races between bearings, what kind of racing are you talking about? Duration, etc? Just trying to gauge how it might impact my system.

Thanks!

wmhjr
07-24-2011, 01:18 PM
I installed a PRC Extreme Duty oil cooler (http://www.prchotrod.com/products/prc-cooling-accessories.php) on my Chevelle.

It's pretty big so there weren't many mounting locations to choose from. I ended up putting it behind the driver side headlights. Even though it doesn't get direct ram air, plenty of air can get around the headlight assembly, especially when the fans kick on.


Herb, that looks like the unit Frank recommended. How effective is the unit for you? Do you have any before/after temps? I was thinking about that unit without fans being mounted in front of my radiator. I guess you also installed a separate relay and thermostat to control the fans?

Yelcamino
07-24-2011, 01:50 PM
Herb, that looks like the unit Frank recommended. How effective is the unit for you? Do you have any before/after temps? I was thinking about that unit without fans being mounted in front of my radiator. I guess you also installed a separate relay and thermostat to control the fans?

No before/after temps yet, I just recently installed an oil temp gauge and a toggle swith to a relay to turn the fans on/off. Around town I highly doubt the oil temp will get high enough to need the fans. On track I'll turn the fans on and leave them run until I pit.

AMC Racer
07-28-2011, 08:41 AM
If holes are tapped 1/2 NPT, then the hole size is bigger than 1/2". Also, most braided AN hoses are 1/16" smaller ID than the nominal size, plus the fittings and hose ends are smaller yet. 1/2NPT-12AN is a common adapter size and would give least restriction with 12AN hoses. The chart below is a handy reference ... sorry, not the best quality. Hope this helps.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e273/RedDevil401/ANhosesfittingsetc.jpg

Randy67
07-28-2011, 09:22 AM
I use an Earls oil cooler with AN 10 lines and Earls thermostatic bypass adapter, here is the cooler mounted
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae160/rjpajer/81%20Camaro%20CP%20car/IMGA0972.jpg

When this engine was in the El Camino with this cooler setup, I had issues keeping the oil warm. The temp gauge would stay down just above 100 degrees, except in June-August, where is would get to the 180 degree opening temp for the thermostatic adapter. This was a SB Chevy, it should work quite well on a Pontiac.

sik68
07-28-2011, 09:39 AM
When putting my system together, I talked to Marv at Setrab (check them out, big in Nascar & open-wheel), who said -10 is sufficient for a medium v8 like an SBC. Said -12 is more well suited to dry sump systems that can move more oil without risk of pressure drop. But there are people who are using -12 with no problems on wet sump so I'm sure either is fine if your pump can move enough oil.

They also said to target around 100 sq in of finned area for a track day environment, 20-30 minute sessions. I'm using a setrab 920 and really glad I am using an oil thermostat....otherwise the oil would never warm up for street driving. Sorry, no oil temp data until I get my oil temp gauge on....but I can tell you my water temp dropped 10deg after the cooler install....engine runs ice cold on the street even 90deg heat.

The mocal thermostat has a bypass that will let a small % of the oil circulate through the cooler at all times.

killer67
07-28-2011, 09:52 AM
^^
Setrab is hard to beat especially if you are going to be pounding it on the track

wmhjr
07-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Thanks, guys. Here's my plan so far based on info I got here as well as over on Lat-G and from some other sources....

I have the PRC Extreme unit on order based on some feedback I got a few days ago. I'm not using the fan but will instead mount in front of the radiator using yet to be determined and fabricated.

I also have the Canton oil regulator that will be delivered in the next day or so. According to what I've researched so far, it's the one that has the highest potential volume throughput based on internal dimensions. Having talked to Canton, SRC, Fluidyne, and a whole bunch of other folks and based on the geometry of where I need to pull the oil connections from the block, I'm going with -10 lines.

I should have everything except the cooler by tomorrow night, and will work on how I'm going to get those block connections as well as fitting the oil filter and oil thermostat (hopefully). The Canton thermostat is pretty bulky, so there is a possibility that I won't be able to find a mounting location for it and would then switch to an Earls or Mocal.

I appreciate all the info, and will share pics as well as results once I get that far.

Twentyover
07-29-2011, 04:31 PM
Greg, that's good - but scary info. In my case, 100% of the oil will go through the cooler. My pressure is coming from the block vic the distributor, so I think it's a pretty good indication of overall oil pressure. One of the questions is that the holes in the block itself are 1/2", and my guess is that the filter assembly (whichever I use) and the cooler itself have an inside diameter of no more than 1/2". So you do think that the larger gauge lines connecting them would improve things even if the fittings step down to 1/2"?

When you say a dozen or 20 races between bearings, what kind of racing are you talking about? Duration, etc? Just trying to gauge how it might impact my system.

Thanks!


Vintage sports car racing. 'Race' refers to a race weekend or event. Each event was 4-6 sessions. Duration was from 20-40 minutes green to checker, plus pace and cooloff lap. Shift points at 6400 on earlier events, quickly changing to 7200 on later events (went to a better valve spring).

'My filter is located on the feed side of the system between the block and cooler. Just my opinion, but the only good place to take your oil pressure tap is from the block mounted return plate. It will reflect any restriction the cooler puts into the system. Any pressure tap on the feed side of the cooler system is just guessing.

Block fittings and return plate fittings are are Straights, witl all bends made on hose ends in tubing, no forged 90's or other angles (threy're drilled and sharp edge, equal more pressure drop.) Most blocks and plates are NPT, I regularly drill the pipe section out to reduce the diametral step between AN and Pipe Taper. This doesn't answer your question on ID directly, the direct answer is that larger diameter plumbing will improve flow even if there are fitting restrictions. With that said, think about how you can reduce fitting restictions also.

David Pozzi
07-29-2011, 05:17 PM
I've used the Earls/Mocal type cooler 19 row, 6" X (12" to mounting holes) coolers both on my Lola T-70 dry sump (& before when it was wet) and on Mary's second gen with LS2. I think Mary's was the 13" X 6". Both use -10 hose and I tried to use straight ends or tube ends as much as possible, no restrictive forged 90's adapters or ends, I think that's important. I think -10 is plenty good on a small block chev. You do need to be careful to not rev the engine with cold oil, it can blow up the cooler since cold oil won't flow through it's turbulence inducing passages.

I did use -12 hose on the dry sump suction lines as they are prone to collapse if there is any restriction.

I don't like the the air to water coolers, I don't think they cool as well and they require more plumbing. They do help warm the oil a little. I recommend an oil thermostat, preferably built into the oil filter adapter on the block, instead of an inline thermostat. This reduces the number of oil lines you need if the sandwich adapter/thermostat is screwed onto the block filter pad. On Mary's camaro I added the thermostat sandwich adapter to the remote filter assy. the cooler always receives oil & the thermostat closes off the bypass & shifts flow to the cooler as it is needed. This way the cooler always has a little warm oil passing through it. Imagine driving in cold weather and the oil in the cooler is near freezing. If the thermostat were to shift flow to the cooler suddenly, it would probably blow up from the restriction. This is especially an issue with aircraft.

This cooler below is like mine but larger, this should cool just about anything!
One thing to improve is the mounting. This type cooler should be mounted at both ends. Mounting like this works, but vibration will eventually tear off the lower tabs where its bolted down. I do see one upper left mount which is good. Either add brackets to the top ears, or run long bolts from top holes to bottom, make up pieces of aluminum tube for spacers in-between the top & bottom mounts as in the second photo.
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae160/rjpajer/81%20Camaro%20CP%20car/IMGA0972.jpg
Here is the cooler mounting on my Lola T-70
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/davidpozzi/Other/f8293b4d.jpg

Randy67
07-29-2011, 05:55 PM
Good idea David, It does have a mount on the upper left, with rubber washers between the cooler and sheetmetal. I will add the fourth mount as well. This cooler was in my El Camino for 2 years mounted this way, but I will keep an eye on the mounts just in case.

wmhjr
07-30-2011, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the info, Greg. It is appreciated.

I'm probably going to be forced to use 2 forged 45 deg fittings on the block plate. The problem is clearance. 1 on the out to filter/cooler, and one on the return. There is simply insufficient space to clear anything else at that point. This is one of the biggest challenges working with a pontiac standard block in an early A-body chassis with headers. Beyond that, nothing but radiused hose ends. I'm still trying to think of other options but have really not come up with anything else. Problem is that the header primary tubes are aligned directly in line with the oil in/out on the block. And, of course they're directly on top of each other.

Flash68
07-31-2011, 08:12 AM
Great thread and informative posts here at a time that is perfect for me since I am doing my oil cooler system right now. After previous research I too had thought -12AN was a "minimum" size for oil lines for my SBC, but several have already "disproven" this myth and spoke with experts/manufacturers, so that is a lot better than your run of the mill internet knowledge IMO.

I have 2 questions/ideas that I am needing to decide on that I think is relevant here if you don't mind.

I see almost everyone has mounted their plate type coolers so that the rows are "horizontal" -- like a radiator is -- and the inlets/outlets are mostly on the top side, although it appears that is not unanimous. Is there any issue with mounting the cooler "on its side" where the rows are vertical and the inlets/outlets are on the side as well?

And I see almost everyone running steel braided hose on their system, and I have seen some black braided as well. Do you see any reason not to, or any issues with running a high pressure push lock type hose?

Thanks.

Yelcamino
07-31-2011, 08:21 AM
Great thread and informative posts here at a time that is perfect for me since I am doing my oil cooler system right now. After previous research I too had thought -12AN was a "minimum" size for oil lines for my SBC, but several have already "disproven" this myth and spoke with experts/manufacturers, so that is a lot better than your run of the mill internet knowledge IMO.

I have 2 questions/ideas that I am needing to decide on that I think is relevant here if you don't mind.

I see almost everyone has mounted their plate type coolers so that the rows are "horizontal" -- like a radiator is -- and the inlets/outlets are mostly on the top side, although it appears that is not unanimous. Is there any issue with mounting the cooler "on its side" where the rows are vertical and the inlets/outlets are on the side as well?

And I see almost everyone running steel braided hose on their system, and I have seen some black braided as well. Do you see any reason not to, or any issues with running a high pressure push lock type hose?

Thanks.

I'm not an expert by any means...

I don't think it matters which way you mount the cooler as long as the mounting is secure.

IMO push lock hose shouldn't be used in a high temp application. The hose may be rated for temps above what the oil temp will reach, but when I assemble push lock type hose I use my heat gun to warm the hose so it will strech over the barbs easier during assembly. That makes me think if the hose heats up enough during use it's possible that it could come off the fitting... and that would suck.

wmhjr
07-31-2011, 08:22 AM
As I'm here at my bench playing with fittings and plates.....

I think black braided or any quality line would be fine assuming good materials, good inside diameter, etc. Nothing magic about steel braided, and we're talking about relatively low pressure all things considered. Making sure the connections are secure, like Herb says, is critical.

I'll leave the other question for more experienced folks. I have heard one thing about somehow aligning the cooler rows in the same fashion as the rad, which may or may not be vertical, etc. This is to maintain max possible air volume through both elements to maximize thermal conductivity. I don't know how much there is to that.

wmhjr
07-31-2011, 08:25 AM
I'm probably going to be forced to use 2 forged 45 deg fittings on the block plate. The problem is clearance. 1 on the out to filter/cooler, and one on the return.

Well, I may have found another solution. I may come out of the bottom straight fitting with a 120deg hose end going about 10" to a 180" hose end, then back up. That may be an easier solution, and while it adds 2 connections I think it may be more compact and secure. The problem is not enough room for the turn radius on -10 line of any quality. The 180deg end is a lot more compact and should introduce no real additional resistance.

Thoughts?

Flash68
07-31-2011, 09:07 AM
I'm not an expert by any means...

I don't think it matters which way you mount the cooler as long as the mounting is secure.

IMO push lock hose shouldn't be used in a high temp application. The hose may be rated for temps above what the oil temp will reach, but when I assemble push lock type hose I use my heat gun to warm the hose so it will strech over the barbs easier during assembly. That makes me think if the hose heats up enough during use it's possible that it could come off the fitting... and that would suck.

Good points Herb. Thank you.


As I'm here at my bench playing with fittings and plates.....

I think black braided or any quality line would be fine assuming good materials, good inside diameter, etc. Nothing magic about steel braided, and we're talking about relatively low pressure all things considered. Making sure the connections are secure, like Herb says, is critical.

I'll leave the other question for more experienced folks. I have heard one thing about somehow aligning the cooler rows in the same fashion as the rad, which may or may not be vertical, etc. This is to maintain max possible air volume through both elements to maximize thermal conductivity. I don't know how much there is to that.

The aligning of the rows does make sense I guess... and I just think it looks better that way.

Twentyover
07-31-2011, 10:37 AM
... I have heard one thing about somehow aligning the cooler rows in the same fashion as the rad, which may or may not be vertical, etc. This is to maintain max possible air volume through both elements to maximize thermal conductivity. I don't know how much there is to that.

Remembering that the air center fins have louvres in them to assure flow is in the turbulent regime-
If the cooler is stacked close in front of the radiator, I would suggest that the criss-cross pattern formed by the tubes would cause some airflow blockage, except...

If the tube pitches differ in the oil cooler and radiator, the oil cooler tubes will block the air centers and the rad tubes will block the rear of the oil cooler tubes.

So it's kind of a push. Adding distance between the cooler and the rad/condenser, or placing the cooler alongside mitigates the problem.

When I say tubes, I am refering to the tubes formed by the plate laminations shown in Pozzi's image. This style of heat exchanger is refered to as a laminated plate fin type. Sorry I'm being anal, but a tube is not necessarily a round thing

sik68
07-31-2011, 11:01 AM
Here is what I did. Stacked heat exchangers are pretty common everywhere so I did it too. There is about 1" between radiator and oil cooler. The radiator fans may also help draw air through the oil cooler:

Also, I am debating whether to turn the cooler over, mounting it upside down to make oil changes easier. :dunno:

http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb128/thre11phan/Camaro/IMG_0017.jpg

wmhjr
08-08-2011, 07:38 AM
Posted my update on the thread http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?53926-66-Pontiac-Resto-Mod-Update&p=825664#post825664 with some pics of the oil cooler/thermostat

wmhjr
08-14-2011, 01:15 PM
So far new setup working as designed. No real testing other than test firing but so far so good!

jtwoods4
07-28-2014, 07:23 AM
Hey wmhjr

Great thread! I also have a Pontiac in my 1970 Trans Am road race car and I need to install an oil cooler setup. Quick question.... I am running the 10AN braided lines from my canton block adapter plate to my remote oil filter, canton oil thermostat, and oil cooler. There is no room in my car to mount all this stuff close to the block adapter plate. I am going to have to mount everything up near the radiator. Probably filter and thermostat will mount behind the passenger headlight and cooler will mount in front of radiator.

I have an 80 pound melling oil pump so I have strong pressure without the oil cooling system. I just wanted to make sure that mounting all this equipment that far from the block adapter would be ok. If I mount the cooler in front of the radiator the oil will have to travel all the way to the front of the car then back to the rear of the block. Do you see a problem with this?

John

71RS/SS396
07-28-2014, 11:22 AM
Hey wmhjr

Great thread! I also have a Pontiac in my 1970 Trans Am road race car and I need to install an oil cooler setup. Quick question.... I am running the 10AN braided lines from my canton block adapter plate to my remote oil filter, canton oil thermostat, and oil cooler. There is no room in my car to mount all this stuff close to the block adapter plate. I am going to have to mount everything up near the radiator. Probably filter and thermostat will mount behind the passenger headlight and cooler will mount in front of radiator.

I have an 80 pound melling oil pump so I have strong pressure without the oil cooling system. I just wanted to make sure that mounting all this equipment that far from the block adapter would be ok. If I mount the cooler in front of the radiator the oil will have to travel all the way to the front of the car then back to the rear of the block. Do you see a problem with this?

John

Use -12 lines, it will reduce the loss from going a longer distance.