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View Full Version : SUSPENSION HELP......bad on 1969 camaro



camarobigblock
07-16-2011, 04:48 AM
My 1969 camaro is having some serious issues with the front end. The components, unsteer power rack, heidts upper and lower arms, hotskis front sway bar and qa1 coil overs. I align the car drive it forward and the car is all over the road and tires are sqealing. I look at the tires are noticeably out. Toe is toed in real bad and the camber is real far positive. I back up about 10 feet and everything is perfect again. I just finished the car a few months back and getting around to driving it a bit. I bought most of the components as we were building the car. I know the control arms are not the problems im thinking its the steering rack. what are your thoughs...it was a nice day out and wanted to go for a drive but cant cause this happens every time....now im really PISSED OFF

MyFriendScott
07-16-2011, 08:10 AM
I know the control arms are the the problems im thinking its the steering rack. what are your thoughs

So which is it, the control arms or the steering rack? :)

My thoughts are the problem is more likely in your steering arm/tie rod/drag link if driving is affecting toe in/out. A steering rack wasn't a factory option in '69. Did you replace the factory steering linkage with an aftermarket rack at some point?

dontlifttoshift
07-16-2011, 08:51 AM
ever have deja vu?......https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?73970-just-found-this-site...have-suspension-problems-that-has-everyone-stumped&highlight=camarobigblock

camarobigblock
07-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Yes I have upgraded to the steering rack cause almost everything in the front was missing, worn out, or broken. So my thought was to replace with upgraded components. I thought I figured it out when i removed the lower arms. They had a lot of drag on the bushing. Took car of that. the ride height does not change. I have found no-one that can help with this problem. the springs were swapped...no change, swapped back to qa1. checked all the suspension...I dont believe there is a problem there either......
I am thinking its the rack...but why and what is the solution. I am so fed up with each company blaming the install or the other components. I dont want to continue to replace expensive parts for no reason. Im sure Im not the only one that has run into this. The car sits a bit lower but not much. I have already damaged one set of front tires due to this problem

MrQuick
07-16-2011, 10:12 PM
who is doing your alignment this time around?

camarobigblock
07-17-2011, 01:19 PM
same alignement shop, we have consulted a suspension expert and thinks its related to bumpsteer. We are going to measure the intersection point of the tie rod to see if its related to bump out or bump in. What is interesting is the ride height does not change, but we car clearly see the outer tie rod bolt that goes through the knuckle goes from straight up to almost 35 degrees pointed out...like the tie rod is binding. he suggested we try a different tie rod end or heim joint ones. we will see i guess

novaderrik
07-17-2011, 03:10 PM
the bolt that goes thru the steering arm is tilting and you don't think that might be the issue?
hopefully you didn't just jam a bolt into the tapered hole on the steering arm to hold it together- tie rods have a tapered end to fit into the slightly different tapered hole in the steering arm.

camarobigblock
07-17-2011, 03:37 PM
I know thats an issue...We used a camera on the lower arm and saw it moving as we drove through the parking lot. Of course we are not going to "jam a bolt in the knuckle". I am taking it to the machine shop and having it sleeved. I have the luxury of have a C&C machine right around the corner from my shop.

camarobigblock
07-17-2011, 03:42 PM
Just so you know...Im not new to cars, I have almost 15 years experience in the automotive field. I am just asking for advise on this set-up cause I have even hunter alignment guys stumped on this. We have asked for there input and since its a custom set-up (not factory) they are investigating if its a defect in one or more components.

MyFriendScott
07-17-2011, 05:57 PM
I have the luxury of have a C&C machine right around the corner from my shop.

It's CNC as in computer numerical controlled. Just thought I'd throw that in there. Anyway, back to the tilted bolt. So you're bringing the knuckle to a machine shop to have it sleeved so the tie rod end doesn't wiggle around in there. I guess when you put the steering rack in the car, someone didn't think to use a tie rod sized correctly for the knuckle. Instead of sleeving the knuckle, why not just replace the tie rod end?

You got any photos of this install? I don't know why, but I'm dying to see what it looks like.

camarobigblock
07-17-2011, 06:51 PM
yes CNC...hahaha sorry. I will take a few pictures when i get back to the car. The tie rods and knuckles are part of the kit from unisteer....if there they are wrong then its there doing. The kit was installed as it came out of the box. The reason for machining the knuckle is to accept the bolt for bump steer adjustment. we are replacing the the rod ends with heim joints.

Rod
07-17-2011, 07:34 PM
pictures, pictures, pictures!

:postpics:

novaderrik
07-17-2011, 08:51 PM
if the rack and pinion kit is worth a crap, then there will be no need for a bumpsteer correction kit and they should have sent the proper tie rod ends. call them up and tell them you got the wrong parts and have them send you the proper tie rod ends.

camarobigblock
07-19-2011, 02:55 PM
I will get some pictures when I get back in town. I honestly dont know what the problem it..But I think I am going the change the control arms and see what happens

killer69
07-20-2011, 08:34 PM
I will get some pictures when I get back in town. I honestly dont know what the problem it..But I think I am going the change the control arms and see what happens

Unisteer does supply the correct outer tie rod end AND Steering Arm with the rack kit. you MUST use the unisteer steering arm. if as you say the outer tie rod is moving in the taper of the steering arm you need to replace the steering arm and outer tie rod end, i would not have a shop make a bushing it will be just as cost effective to acll unisteer and order 2 arms and 2 outer tie rod ends replacing the control arm will do nothing. ill put 20 bucks on that.

MonzaRacer
07-24-2011, 08:57 PM
UHMMM if the Hunter guy is stumped he must be an idiot.
First of all a bump steer kits used with heim joints usually come with a tapered bolt and shims to move the heim up or down. And then you use a washer and nut on it to hold heim joint.
If you have a straight bolt then you most likely dont have right parts. At least all of the kits I got had a proper bolt with taper on it.

camarobigblock
07-26-2011, 04:55 AM
spoke with a local shop that has a complete suspension kit and steering assembly in the show room. I was telling him the issue im having with the car. He thinks it may still be the lower control arms. I was at the track this weekend for the Untimate Car Challenge. Detorit speed was there with both camaros. I spoke to them as well and they have seen this before and also thought is nat be the lower arms. I have desided to completely remove all the steering and control arms and replace them with another company and be done with it.

Payton King
07-26-2011, 09:25 AM
good move. You will be better off.

exwestracer
07-29-2011, 08:04 AM
spoke with a local shop that has a complete suspension kit and steering assembly in the show room. I was telling him the issue im having with the car. He thinks it may still be the lower control arms. I was at the track this weekend for the Untimate Car Challenge. Detorit speed was there with both camaros. I spoke to them as well and they have seen this before and also thought is nat be the lower arms. I have desided to completely remove all the steering and control arms and replace them with another company and be done with it.

You have video of the outer tie rod bolt moving in the steering arm, and you think the problem is in the lower control arms...? What!?

Even if you put a straight bolt in a tapered hole, if it has a washer and is tight, it should hold on a slow roll...

Either you aren't explaining the problem correctly, or no one is checking the basics... This is not rocket science.

MrQuick
07-29-2011, 09:37 AM
i would take it somewhere that knows what they are doing or at least has the sence to make a few calls before you hurt yourself or someone else on the road around you.

camarobigblock
07-30-2011, 03:30 PM
i would take it somewhere that knows what they are doing or at least has the sence to make a few calls before you hurt yourself or someone else on the road around you.


I have taken it to someone who knows what there doing. The problem is everyone points to a different problem. We put the car on the rack before, then took it round the parking lot. then showed the hunter rep the problem with his own eyes. Showed him the video of the movement of the tie rods.
While at the track this past weekend for the Ultimate Track Car Challenge, we spoke with the people from detroit speed. Speaking with them about the problem then showed us a problem they had with a car they were working on and what they did to find it and correct the problem. Thanks to detroit speed guys, you were a big help!!!
What we have found is the lower front control arm sleeve moving inside the bushing changing the toe in. We are seeing in the tie rods moving is the result of the arms sleeve moving in the front bushing.
We have taken the entire front suspension apart and took the knuckle over to the machine shop to accept a heim joint tie rod end, which means machining the taper to a straight to allow adjust bump steer. We have also decided to replace the control arms with a set from a local race shop. They are being made now with all heim joint for much more precise alignment.

exwestracer
07-31-2011, 08:18 PM
I have taken it to someone who knows what there doing. The problem is everyone points to a different problem. We put the car on the rack before, then took it round the parking lot. then showed the hunter rep the problem with his own eyes. Showed him the video of the movement of the tie rods.
While at the track this past weekend for the Ultimate Track Car Challenge, we spoke with the people from detroit speed. Speaking with them about the problem then showed us a problem they had with a car they were working on and what they did to find it and correct the problem. Thanks to detroit speed guys, you were a big help!!!
What we have found is the lower front control arm sleeve moving inside the bushing changing the toe in. We are seeing in the tie rods moving is the result of the arms sleeve moving in the front bushing.
We have taken the entire front suspension apart and took the knuckle over to the machine shop to accept a heim joint tie rod end, which means machining the taper to a straight to allow adjust bump steer. We have also decided to replace the control arms with a set from a local race shop. They are being made now with all heim joint for much more precise alignment.

You originally said that the video showed the angle of the tie rod bolt changing as it went through the steering arm. A loose bushing in the lower control arm is NOT going to have that effect. It will cause some toe change, but the bushing would have to be gone to give the amount of change you described.

While your shotgun solution will likely solve the problem, I doubt anyone really hit on the true cause...

camarobigblock
08-02-2011, 11:00 AM
Agreed, there are 2 real problems. One we can see the front bushing moving when rolling the car forward and backward. Thats problem 1. The other problem is the outer tie tods are really really tight to move. We think they might be freezing up with the movement of the arms. The tie rods are bolted into the taper of the the steering knuckle. we are just replacing the arms with ones that are completely adjustable so its a soild mount to frame. The arms are all hiem jointed no bushings. The tie rod ends in the knuckle I believe are the real problem...they too are being replaced and the knuckle machine to accept the heim joint outer tie rod ends
That sould prevent any further problems

camarobigblock
09-28-2011, 12:34 PM
suspension has been corrected. The front bushing in the lower control arm was allowing the sleeve to move inside the bushing. It would move inside the bushing enough to cause the suspension/tie rods to bind. We have car on the rack, aligned and test driven with great results. We wound up replacing all 4 control arms with ones from my friends at Autofabracecars.com and we put new tie rod ends just because we had things apart. Thanks to Rob Hamilton, the owner of AutoFab for making the arms for me!!