3rd Gen Camaro Auto-X Alignment Specs?

[GeoffP]

Can anyone point me towards a good reference for good alignment specs for a 3rd gen Camaro specifically for better handling/Auto-X? I've got a few maintenance items to take care of before PSMC where an alignment will be necessary so I want to make sure it'll be setup right.

Thanks for any help/suggestions!

[SLO_Z28]

I would go with 1.5-2.5 Degrees static negative camber, as much positive caster as you can get and 1/16th to 1/8th toe out. My friend run specs similar to those and does well:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/07/camaro_1-1.jpg

I know the trick to these cars is running a lot of spring.

[GeoffP]

Does your friend drive or trailer to events? Do you have any idea how much positive caster he's able to get?

Thanks for the info!

[SLO_Z28]

The car is always street driven. Positive caster gives you more negative camber gain while turning, and allows you to run less static camber which is better for straight line braking as it gives you a better tire contact patch. I know ive asked him, many times, what his specs are, but for the life of me I cant remember. The car does extremely well for how simple it is, its a 1992 B4C with springs and shocks, and at one point Saturday it was within .050 of the people tied for second place.

[David Pozzi]

If you run in stock class, I'd run as much neg camber & positive caster as you can get. Realistically, just loosen the adjustment bolts & slide the top is the strut all the way in & to the rear, then set toe. Probably 1.5 neg is all you can get out of it. Be careful braking hard into turns, the bump stops will hit hard & cause understeer. This can't be fixed in stock class. The IROC package is great, 1LE is even Better.

[GeoffP]

Thanks James and David. I'm setting my car up for the Peach State Muscle Car Challenge in about 3 1/2 weeks so no classes to worry about. I've got new urethane bushings to install, new strut mounts, and have to get it properly aligned plus a few minor maintenance items. My car already has much of the 1LE stuff installed or something better so it should make for a fun weekend.

[dontlifttoshift]

Don't worry about negative camber wearing tires on a street car. We run 2.5 negative on my wives late model charger and one autocross event takes care of abnormal tire wire. Run as much as you can.

[GeoffP]

David what can I do to keep it from hitting the bump stops during braking...trim them? I'm replacing the a-arms with another set that I'm installing new energy suspension bushings and new moog ball joints so it won't be a problem to trim them. The car hasn't been lowered much from stock. I cut about an inch worth of ride height to get the nose out of the air and level it back out from saggy rear springs and to accommodate for a 'glass hood and lighter engine (lt1 is reasonably lighter than an all iron TPI 305). The suspension is already really stiff since I installed Monroe Formula GP shocks and struts several years ago. The running joke with my friends is that it's so stiff that you can feel it if you run over a gnat.

[SLO_Z28]

Poly bushings are terrible, they bind and squeak, I like the global west bushings but even stock rubber is good. What can you do to stop hitting the bump stops? Springs. He runs 1000 in the front and 300 in the rear, he also runs Koni shocks all around, and changed the pick up points of his panhard rod. It does have the stock control arms and is a B4C (police model, think 1 step above 1LE). This car is extremely fast, placed very well, and beat many other cars that would surprise you.

Car has an interesting story, the first car in this picture is the exact same car pictured above:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[GeoffP]

Wow that's cool. Here's a real kicker - I took my spare control arms and bushings with me to work yesterday thinking one of the shop mechanics (I work for a distribution system electric cooperative - we service our own vehicles) would be able to press out the old bushings and install the new ones. As of this afternoon it's still not done with the shop supervisor telling me he didn't think they'd be able to get the old bushings out. Arrg...very irritating. In his defense the bushings do appear to have a step on both sides. I'm guessing the lip will have to be ground off one side. Hopefully one of the other guys will have time to try again tomorrow where I can install the arms Saturday night. We'll see...

[GeoffP]

BTW, I'm not surprised that a well setup 3rd gen hangs with higher end well built cars. The suspension design is pretty good IMHO.

[David Pozzi]

The factory bump stops in front have metal at half height of the rubber, see if you can trim it out. Lowering much at all will cause the tires to hit the wheel wells so be careful. lowering does help you get more negitive camber, but you will run into trouble right away. If you get sudden one wheel lockup when braking, or severe understeer, it's likely due to bottoming out in front. Mods need to be made to get any significant amounts of positive camber or caster. Poly bushings are not good, if you do use them, then drill & install grease fittings at least. Delrin is the way to go.

[GeoffP]

Thanks David - poly bushings are what I could afford at the time. I'll be sure to drill them out and grease them regularly.

[David Pozzi]

My 89 IROC & 85 Z/28 could only achieve 1.5 deg neg camber. You can loosen the strut adjusters & just shove them in & to the rear all the way maxing out caster & Camber, then set toe. You might be a little off from perfectly even side to side, but you won't notice it driving. Eventually you want to have more camber & caster to corner even better.

[a67]

The trick with poly bushings is to use oil on them. Use a 15/50 or 20/50 motor oil, or a straight 50W if it is available. Put it in a squirt can and dribble it onto the ends of the bushings. The oil wicks in and does a great job at lubing them which also prevents them from squeaking.

First time I used gear lube but the sulfur in it makes the car reek. So don't recommend using it.

Note that it can/will drip off at first. So put a piece of cardboard under each area that was lubed.

Bob.

[SLO_Z28]

The actual trick to Poly Bushings is to clearance them. Dump the inner sleeves they come with and machine your own. Then machine the poly to a .00015-.000175 interference fit. No more and no less.

Stock rubber is actually better without having to work on it extensively, or you can buy AFCO solid bushings dirt cheap and have something that actually works. Both are cheaper and better options.

[GeoffP]

Guys I really appreciate all the input. I can't remember ever getting so much great information from one of my posts. Thanks!

[79-TA]

James, your friend's 3rd gen was rocking it out there. I wish I could have provided him with some decent in-class competition. Is he not on the boards?

[SLO_Z28]

James, your friend's 3rd gen was rocking it out there. I wish I could have provided him with some decent in-class competition. Is he not on the boards?

There is a large amount of people that read these boards but never post, he falls into that category. I wish I could have provided him with competition... I have my column almost all the way apart I need one stupid special tool to see whats actually broken.

Ive been looking for a late 3rd gen 1LE or B4C, they're hard to find in good shape.

[GeoffP]

James - they're just plain hard to find. Honestly IMHO, it doesn't take much to build up an IROC to meet / exceed a 1LE car or B4C. There's just not that much difference. Standard interior vs. deluxe, A/C delete, L98 Corvette brakes, higher rate springs, and sway bars. I think that's about all the differences. Have I missed anything?

To stay on topic with my original post, I hope to install my newly refurbished A-arms and strut mounts either Friday night or Saturday night. I'm just going to do what David suggested and then use a tape measure to set the toe to 1/16" to 1/8" out.

[a67]

James - they're just plain hard to find. Honestly IMHO, it doesn't take much to build up an IROC to meet / exceed a 1LE car or B4C. There's just not that much difference. Standard interior vs. deluxe, A/C delete, L98 Corvette brakes, higher rate springs, and sway bars. I think that's about all the differences. Have I missed anything?

I don't have specifics, but IIRC, some of the bushing were a higher durometer. Such as the front sway bar end link bushings being a nylon type material.

Whatever you (to everyone) do be sure to put a steering brace on a 3rd gen. This is the brace that ties the two front frame rails together via the sway bar mounting points. Not only makes a difference in steering, but helps prevent the steering gear from cracking the frame rail.

Bob.

[Norm Peterson]

The actual trick to Poly Bushings is to clearance them.
Don't forget to clearance the ends of the poly bushings to match (or be just slightly shorter than) the inner sleeves. You want all of your fastener torque to be taken be the sleeve, not wasted in compressing the poly.


Norm

[slowcamaro]

I don't have specifics, but IIRC, some of the bushing were a higher durometer. Such as the front sway bar end link bushings being a nylon type material.



I'm not sure there were any different bushings offered for the 3rd gen 1LE cars, but I have heard that the 4th gen 1LE had such changes. The 1LE cars aren't anything that special once you start modifying the car, the only advantage to them is in stock category racing classes, and shear rarity.

The only item specific to the 1LE that MIGHT be hard to track down is the specific fuel tank they used. Other than that nothing that I would be stuck on.

[SLO_Z28]

stock category racing classes, and shear rarity.


^Bingo. I would leave it stock :D

[GeoffP]

That's what I was thinking (in regard to a 1LE car). In reference to clearancing urethane bushings, just remove enough material that the urethane isn't being crushed by the frame mounting point? I understand that the inner sleeve should take the entire torque of the bolt.

Thanks!

[Norm Peterson]

just remove enough material that the urethane isn't being crushed by the frame mounting point?
Yes. Any sleeve load lost to bushing compression is load that does not help the location of the sleeve, which is via friction in all of the aftermarket bushing kits I've ever seen. When the sleeve slips, you'll get a "clunk" as the clearances are taken up. And rotation of the poly against the frame bracket under pressure will also cause squeaks.

Poly bushings really should be considered "wear items" anyway.


Norm

[GeoffP]

I finally got some time to work on the car tonight...installed new strut mounts, pushed them all the way in and all the way back as suggested. I ran out of light and couldn't set the toe thanks to a galled lug nut occupying almost an hour. The stupid lug nut just would not come off. I finally got it loose enough that it wrung the threads off the stud. I'm just glad it didn't spin the stud in the hub. My car has LS1 brakes on it so I'll be hunting down a replacement stud in town tomorrow since it's probably not a standard stock item. Even with the problem, it was a productive evening...I FINALLY figured out why it wandered slightly when crossing the center line of the road. It acted like a bad ball joint or a really bad tie rod, but none show any looseness. It turned out that the passenger side spindle to strut mounting point had a loose bolt. It was just loose enough that it was allowing the upper spindle mount to move about 1/8 inch from compression to rebound. Thank God for lock washers or it could've been a mess or a dead me! It's fixed now! This has been a major pain to figure out. I've had the car aligned 4-5 times by two different shops and NO one could figure out why it didn't drive right. On top of that my old Monroe Formula GP's still look good, feel good. :) Almost time to go Auto-X'ing! Now if my mechanic friend will just get finished with the a-arms so I can get them installed Friday night or Saturday!

[GeoffP]

I got the lug bolt replaced and drove it up to the gas station tonight. The toe needs to be set, but seems pretty good otherwise. I can see definite difference in camber angle. It was noticeably positive and now it's noticeably negative. I figure I'll take it to the local shop either tomorrow or sometime next week to get them to check the camber/caster to reduce whichever side has more to match the other side and to set the tow between 1/8-1/16 out. That should have it pretty good for next Saturday I think. Thanks for all the input and suggestions!

[GeoffP]

Initial impressions are that it was a definite improvement. The car no longer wanders in the lane and is very nimble feeling compared to before the changes. It feels much more like I remember from after I bought it in 91. I'm very pleased - now to get the toe-out set maybe Monday or Tuesday. I'm almost ready for next Saturday. :)

[David Pozzi]

You can get more neg camber by slotting the strut holes at the spindle, but you would need to fill in the gap with some weld & make the holes round again.
On tuned port Camaros you will notice a lag in brake booster response right after acceleration. (lack of boost) A little porting of the vacuum fittings helps a little, but won't cure it.

[GeoffP]

I don't think I'll be doing that mod...don't know anyone around here that can weld good enough for me to feel safe using the part afterwards. Thankfully my car has an LT1 - hopefully it's not plagued with the brake boost lag problem like TPI motors? The car's at the shop today getting the toe-out set. I'll be picking it up this afternoon. :-)

[David Pozzi]

I think it's due to all the plenum area of the tuned port. It takes a while to build vacuum after acceleration. Yours might be slightly better but don't be surprised if it happens to you. I only experienced it after a long straight where you immediately hit the brakes hard.
David

[a67]

I'm not sure there were any different bushings offered for the 3rd gen 1LE cars, but I have heard that the 4th gen 1LE had such changes. The 1LE cars aren't anything that special once you start modifying the car, the only advantage to them is in stock category racing classes, and shear rarity.

The only item specific to the 1LE that MIGHT be hard to track down is the specific fuel tank they used. Other than that nothing that I would be stuck on.

Some info on rear suspension bushings and braces:

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/suspension-chassis/623199-all-oe-lower-control.html

Bob.

[OldMechanik]

Very interesting read for a fellow 3rd gen owner (and TGO member), thanks for the thread and all the info. I plan to make some changes after I get the springs back in mine.

[GeoffP]

Arrg...road block. The shop couldn't get my car on the alignment rack. They said it was "too low" My car is not that low. Their alignment tech is supposedly making some wooden ramps to ease the transition onto their rack so they can do it tomorrow. I told them I had to have it complete tomorrow or I'd have to take it someplace else in order to be ready for Saturday. What makes me mad is that they had the car from 7:30 this morning until 4:55 and didn't even bother to call me. I walked in, pulled out my wallet to pay and was told, "We couldn't do it." I responded with, "What? Are you joking?" So a short conversation later I found out they have recently installed the latest and greatest Hunter system. The transition onto the new rack is steeper than the old one. I have to repeat it just because I'm frustrated, "ARRG!" Thanks for reading. Hopefully it'll be done tomorrow.

BTW, Thanks again for the suggestions David. I sure wish you were closer. I would love to meet you sometime.

[SLO_Z28]

Wooden ramps is par for the course on lowered cars with standard machines. You might check where the corvette guys go, or even go to a chevy dealership. I used to be a GM tech and I did alignments a lot, I had no problem aligning a car with a performance alignment or to any specs that someone would give me, but some(most) guys are just retarded alignment jockeys and have no real understanding of the numbers, and just adjust stuff "green"(makes me cringe).

[GeoffP]

Unfortunately this shop is the only one in town with an alignment rack. I'm fairly well stuck with them. The only real consolation is that I know the shop manager personally (he's family). Hopefully he got the ramps done last night. I can't imagine how they deal with a lowered car (mine is only marginally lowered in the front).

[Norm Peterson]

Maybe you should bring a few odd lengths of two-by lumber with you.


Norm

[GeoffP]

I'm pretty sure they took care of the toe-out setting today. They came and got it and brought it back about an hour later. I was tied up in meetings all day so I didn't have time to call the shop. It felt better on the way home but I hope it wasn't all in my head...I'll be I-L-L if they didn't do the work after coming to get it today. I'll know tomorrow when I call to see how much I owe for the work.

[GeoffP]

What a great day yesterday! By mid day my driving was improving well enough that I moved up to right around mid-way of the pack at PSMC. I think the car could use wider wheels and tires on the front and maybe a torque sensing posi. Overall it performed very well. Thanks for all the suggestions, especially to David Pozzi for the alignment info.