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View Full Version : Air ride vs. DSE



NASTY GN
06-03-2011, 09:20 PM
Looking to do full setup, what will be a better performing call all around. Street,strip,auto X? I will be doing the dse coil over setup. Or the double adjustable air ride setup

MuscleRodz
06-03-2011, 09:25 PM
both perform well, but a few questions need answered. are you doing air ride or coil over? You mention DSE coilover, is that up front? Are you doing 4 link out back? DSE also has DA shocks as well as reservoir type as well. Also what car? Grand National based upon your handle?

NASTY GN
06-03-2011, 10:27 PM
Sorry for the lack of info. Yes it's going on a GN. I was looking at the level 3 air system from ridetech. For the Dse I'm looking at the double adjustable w/o res. I really like the ride tech kit, just worried I will have more headacs with it and I can't really piece it together like the DsE. My wife will kill me if she sees the 7k bill from ride tech. But performance will really push me which way to go. TIA

T-CHRGD
06-04-2011, 08:19 AM
But performance will really push me which way to go. TIA

Then you need to call Mark at SC&C. He will go over all your options for best Performance :)

bret
06-04-2011, 07:25 PM
Look at the current catalog...you can now buy any complete system one component at a time as your budget permits. Also, our coil overs are directly interchangeable with our Shockwaves. All the Strongarms, Musclebars, etc are the same using air or coil over.

wellis77
06-04-2011, 10:20 PM
I was just going to add the same as Bret. I ordered my shockwaves and an air tank last week or two weeks ago. I'm piecing my kit together as well.

NASTY GN
06-04-2011, 10:38 PM
So could I run the shockwaves with no pump for now? Just fill them up with air?

bret
06-05-2011, 04:49 AM
So could I run the shockwaves with no pump for now? Just fill them up with air?

You could do that, but I really recommend some type of on board compressor system. Without it, you give up one of the main benefits of the shockwaves, which is the adjustability.
You can start out with a simple compressor system and upgrade later with a minimum of parts replacement. Most of the upgrades are a simple plug in add on to the core compressor/tank/valve components.
Sorry I dont have links for you...I'm on my iPad and haven' quite figured it out yet!

NASTY GN
06-05-2011, 03:37 PM
I agree it defeats the purpose but I want to buy the airpod 4000 so I would prefer not to buy something interim. Would there be any problems without an on bored pump in the mean time?

bret
06-05-2011, 04:59 PM
The airpod has exactly the same compressor, valves, and tank as a standard compressor system. The difference is that the airpod is pre wired, pre assembled, and pre tested. If you want to save money, get a basic compressor kit for about $1000. Then at some point, if you like, you can add the e3 electronics package.
Yes, you can run an inflation fitting on each Shockwave, but I don't think you'll like it for long. However many customers do this while under construction to move the car around.

2blownstangs
06-05-2011, 05:01 PM
Ride Tech all the way bro!

bret
06-06-2011, 06:27 AM
I didn't get a chance over the weekend to address the core question of the original poster...performance. I think the overall performance potential of the ShockWaves in particular, and air suspension in general, has been well documented at the various autocrosses and road course events over the past few years. The intangible performance that is hard to quantify is the overall feel and ride quality characteristics. The key to optimizing these qualities is the adjustability. With small changes in air pressure you can alter the feel and ride quality significantly. I have used this to my advantage in many track events. If the car nees a little more front bite, sometimes I drop the front air pressure to camber the front tires in a bit. If I need more rear bite sometimes I lower the rear air pressure. I've run really rough tracks where I needed to raise the car a bit to avoid bottoming out. These are just examples of the versatility of the air suspension. Of course, then there is the "loading the car on the trailer" thing...I'm way too spoiled by that!
The point is, air suspension is not a compromise, it is an enhancement. Coilovers are great, but air adds another dimension of versatility and adjustment. It's not for everyone, but like any powerful tool, it can be very useful.

vintageracer
06-06-2011, 12:34 PM
The BIGGEST unknown in all of this is the driver's ability and talent.

A quality suspension "system" is certainly a great asset. Probably the first and BEST "investment" you can make is in yourself. Go ahead and invest in a quality driving school to learn how to drive a car/your car to the cars capability and do so safely.

At that point the questions you ask will be much easier for YOU to answer based upon your abilities and experience as competent driver rather than looking at what everybody else uses!

Just another perspective!

JRouche
06-06-2011, 10:09 PM
Ok, Ill pipe up, but I do have the air ride so it might seem that Im biased. But not much. I have posted my difficulties just as much as my positive thinking re: the air ride system. I wont go into my problems again, that would be just rehashing the old. A search with my sig and air ride will bring up the old posts.

Air ride tech seems to have evolved over the years while still keeping the main product line somewhat backward compatible (it helps when you start with a solid product so older parts can be integrated with newer parts) . I think that is good engineering at the front while still being able to give the costumer updated products.

First... Customer support from the company is second to NONE!. Not often you can call the sales line and get tech folks answering the line who can answer every question you have. You cant beat that. Speaks large for the company, I hope they dont get too large where the initial phone person is mainly sales and doesnt know squat about the technical side.

Second... Their air springs have taken the air suspension from the commonly thought of "air bagged trucks" to a performance level air spring. Air springs ARE a performance product. So yeah.. There are several stages of performance. All out race cars, heavy lead sleds, sports cars, street and track cars, straight line strip cars and completely street cars. So the idea of performance needs to be figured out because IMO no one system fits ALL the cars I just listed.

Race cars? Track or strip might be better suited with a dedicated coil over or strut system. Race cars are easier to configure because they have ONE purpose.

Street and sometime track car? Coilovers are also a great suspension. But IMO they dont have the flexibility that the air ride suspension has. And Im talking about a street car that might see a track once or less a month and still has to have 75% of its time on the roads in town.

As far as the air pod thing. Well, I wouldnt, just my choice Id rather configure the system for my car and the limitations of the space I have. Ill post some pics of mine. But the air pod is great for a guy that doesnt want to mess around with the wiring and air lines so much and wants a plug and play system. Its convenience that doesn't cost much.

And last is YES. You can buy the shockwaves and use them closed (no compressor). There are a few auto manufactures that have closed air springs. You do loose some of the advantages of a full on air controlled system. But the best thing is if money is tight you can use the air springs and integrate the other components later as money is a lil more "wife friendly". Yes, I am married with two kids so I know all about the car money LOL

Mechanically speaking, the shockwaves are really nice. Performance speaking? Even better!!!! Ive driven my 62 nova around (on the outside lane) small nimble Hondas and Beemers (yuppies) on the inside lane and I dont think I was the only one surprised!!!! Its kinda fun taking a 50 year old car around the lighter more modern cars while giving them the advantage. I think it gives most folks a "WTF just happened" thought, yes, even myself. Im set... JR

PICS!!


I wanted to mount my valve block on a plate and not have a lot of wires everywhere. Its not even a show car. I just didnt like the way it was wired up.

It sorta looks like this stock.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zv-1.jpg

So I cut the connectors off and re-wired the block. It looks like a maze of wires but its actually very simple.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zw-1.jpg

Rerouted the wires through my bottom plate and soldered them back to the correct connections. Just kinda cleans it up some.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zz-1.jpg

I also mounted the two compressors up to the plate that I made to fit the rails in the trunk.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zza-1.jpg

It fits in the space that I have..

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zzb-1.jpg

The steel tank from them was modified a lil (welded in a couple of threaded fittings) for a pressure gauge and a valve to remove moisture. The water removal valve vents the tank right to the road with some fittings. And the all important quick release fitting for an air hose if I need it. Umm, use a quality quick release fitting so you dont loose air. They are NOT all the same, hardware store valves arent usually the good ones.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zze-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/07/zzf-1.jpg

MonzaRacer
06-16-2011, 04:55 AM
As to ability to make something cheaper Ill chime in. I used an A6 Ac compressor for air pressure. My idea came from old JC Wittney kits for under hoop compressors. When I finally TRASHED the A6 clutch on my 78 C10 I made brackets and went with an old York/Tecumseh pump. I used a relay and Hobbs switch and have had nothing but good luck, heck my truck even has an external air hose for tire filling.
I used the 5 gallon unit and filled springs with paddle switches. Oh and its cool ride all around.
As for piecing, yep bought my parallel 4 link then had front brackets welded to 1/4 plates, with intention of cutting front spring perches off and bolting on to factory holes, been on since 04. Only issue was where GM contours the left rear frame rail to clear the shock, so I had to weld in the flat plate.
Now as to filling the shocks/springs, for simple ,buy paddle switches, for temp, they can sell you simple air valves like a valve stem.
Lets go back to 1998 and I am driving my 71 Monte Carlo and getting ready to hit First Hot Rod East Coast Power Tour. Well after figuring I am going to plan for failure I decide stock work rear coil springs with 2 sets of coil spring lift kits, yes 2,,,well 1 1/2. I had a left over sleeve from jacking up brothers 79 Regal we built for his wifes first car. I bought another, cut the old sleeve in two pieces, welded them together this givng me 6 in of lift. Lets just say my springs were SHOT. at ride height the rear Abody coil spring was soooooo shot it was about 4 in tall.
Knowing had long trip and lots of weight, I had a choice, pull the cargo coils for a 69 Pontiac Bonneville out of my 70 Monte as this is what I had used to raise it up,,,or CoolRide. But I was on tight budget.
So even though I wanted a switch, and tank and air compressor,,,,hey I wanted it all. I just didnt have the cash.
Now rhis was back when Air Ride was in in infancy so to speak, Brett was working on his wifes Bonneville, I remember him showing me the dash accent he had made.
So I ask about air springs, knew they had push connect fittings and had idea I was going with individual air lines like we used to do with air shocks.
Now he didnt have air fill valves at the time that would bolt in where I needed.
I used a fill valve for a home water system bladder tank, 1/8th pipe thread male to 1/8th pipe thread female 1/4 in line puch connect from local truck supply shop.
At each corner the Monte has holes in bumper and I dug up some old chrome plated nuts from tire air fittings, double nutted in place and filled my springs with my dads portable air compressor, one of those rechargeable Campbell Hausefeld units. 55 to 60 psi and car sat perfect, I was stoked.
Car sat great anywhere I set it.
took it down road about mile and a half, WOOHOO rides great. This was at like 10 ,11 pm at night I had installed it after work, had to make holes to clear upper bolts to make it stay in and such but it worked, and lines were snaked through frame and not hanging. I did have single fill fitting push connect , just in case. And had picked up a compression tee for emergency case and kept extra line in car.
But as for inconvenience, I rarely had to add due to leaks, the car handled GREAT. I had new/used Monroe Sensatracs on back, got them as 6 mo old take offs as guy said they didnt work right, but his car was jacked up too high and he was topping them out,,,, I had called Monroe and found him longer shock number . BUT I got good shocks out of it.
With truck packed with tool box, jack, spare, oil, water, coolers, luggage, back seat full of stuff too.
Talk about loaded for bear, break down etc.
Me and my buddy headed out for Mooresville NC, long story short in Dale Indiana down by I64 to go south,,,I miss turn. Go to gas station to turnaround and get pulled over and about 2 hrs and meeting drug dog later,,all starting like at 7pm at night, was hoping to get farther along then find motel.
Anyway. Car road great, handled SOOOO much better. Never an issue as long as you have a source of air.
Heck get small pump, and paddle switches, I will stress AT LEAST 3 controls.
Separate the front and T the rears work OK.
In my truck I took out all the gauge area, 3 gauges and 3 paddle switches. One side in front takes more air to set level BUT truck handled great.
4 yrs later(I did truck in 04) I had to take truck off road due to fuel costs, and bought a motorcycle to ride in 08.
Truck still here, waiting for a better carb and some TLC, Air ride still installed. Heck I had probably 60k miles on my truck by 05 when new engine went in, my 71 Monte was driven 2 yrs and probably 75k to 80k as daily driver no issues with manual fill, just a pain to raise it but oh baby did it handle,,oh and when I loaded 4, 350 blocks, several sets of heads, cranks and rod in trunk of Monte Carlo, the guy I bought them off of was speechless as I asked to get some air. bumped them to 95 per side, car back at ride height and drove over 50 mile home,,,loaded and still played with couple of Camaros coming out of Vincennes, Indiana on 50 east 4 lane towards Washington!!!!!
And I hope to get it running again here soon, I miss her being drivable and I need hauling capability.
Yes, you can build on the cheap, get catalog, look over parts, heck even go talk to local truck shop supply about looking over their 1/4 air fitting quick connects t osee whats locally available but Bret and crew do put pretty much everything you need in kits and then some.
Those guys will get you all you need if at all possible.
Heck I have seen guys use yard sale portable air tanks on this stuff, but ART/Ridetech stuff is much better and actually rated for highway duty.
My 84 Caprice "What If" is going to have a small aluminum air tank from a semi in trunk.
My 77 Monza will be using a converted NOS bottle for a tank, but these will most likely have electric air pumps as I want AC in these cars!.
As for me if you search you will find me a BIG proponent for Ridetech and their air ride setups.
I still remember when John Hotchkiss made the basic statement, roughly remembered, in magazine that ",,,air suspensions will never be considered a performance suspension" his premise was it was good for a street rod, loading on trailer it can be raised, cruising fair grounds, but would never be a performance piece.
My thought was then when Bret sees this "game on" and he rest as they say is history.
Bret has beat on every car they built, made it EASY to ride low, smooth and cool ,as they used to say. And now turn and burn too!
Will Air ride REPLACE springs but honestly,,,, Springs are there, you have what ya bought, if its wrong you buy more.
tune the air spring is just as Bret said. You can tweak it or the shock, the harder you load it the higher the rate. The ultimate in progressive springs.
Just my $0.02 or $0.20 adjusting price for the overly long post.

NASTY GN
06-20-2011, 06:12 PM
Any other opinions?

Jim Nilsen
06-24-2011, 03:54 AM
Always consider packaging and weight and the all around purpose of the car. If you add sound equipment to your list and other amenities you might find it hard to get it all in. If you are weight conscious it gets even worse to decide. Purpose built track cars seem to do very well with the DSE packages, multi purpose cars excell in the smile department with Air-ride.

I know of one persone that got rid of the coilover setup and went to air-ride and is so much happier now.

It's a tough decision and cost, time ,and most of all performance are all up to the driver as to what is best for your plans.

prine68
06-24-2011, 05:26 AM
I'll give you my 20cents... I just finished installing air ride on my '68 Camaro. I installed the Airbar, shockwaves, lower control arms, and the Airpod system. There wasn't to much complication to the system, and I'll tell you... just what Bret said earlier the ease of changing the ride height for what your doing is Great!

marolf101x
06-24-2011, 10:40 AM
As for those concerned about weight please read this article from Popular Hot Rodding:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/features/0701phr_air_ride_technologies_air_spring_suspensio n/index.html

For those of you like me who are too lazy to read here's the synopsis:
"Keep in mind that our baseline weight already included dearched leaf springs, lighter control arms, lowering springs, and high-performance shocks--so your weight may vary. The starting weight came in at 3,510 lbs with 2,010 lbs on the front axle and 1,490 lbs on the rear axle. After the install, we weighed the Camaro again and came up with a surprising result. The Air Ride system was not heavier, in fact, it knocked a lot of weight off the car. The results were 1,970 lbs on the front axle, 1,450 for the rear axle, and only 3,420 as a total for the whole car. The new exhaust system is a bit smaller, so of the 90 lbs saved, we figure 80 lbs of it was a direct result of the air bag suspension install."

xxxturbo6
12-12-2011, 07:49 PM
Looking to do full setup, what will be a better performing call all around. Street,strip,auto X? I will be doing the dse coil over setup. Or the double adjustable air ride setup I have the complete front & rear DSE suspension under my Buick T-Type and I can tell you from personal experience that it works Very well !!!

Both Ridetech & DSE are amongst the top companies at pretty much every pro-touring event across the country and both have customers competing and even beating them with their own products. Doesn't get much better than that!

Scot W.

rivs68
12-13-2011, 03:20 PM
http://www.shutterfly.com/lightbox/view.sfly?fid=a04ee24ac7dcdfd726cd1d30d33b21f1

rivs68
12-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Hmmm...something's different...I can't seem to get pics. to upload any more :(

Anyway, I have ridetech and love it...Installation's pretty much a breeze, and I like the adjustibility, I autocross my car much lower than I drive it on the street, not to mention I love the ride and the car handles great....I purchase mine in stages as funds permitted...I also cut my air pod in 2 pieces so it would fit where I wanted it...And oh yeah...Cutomer service at Ridetech is GREAT !!!


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1cf20b3127ccefed64290b82300000040O00EcN3DVq0asg e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a1cc32b3127ccefe8f8a9a34b200000030O00EcN3DVq0asg e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/