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olason
12-02-2010, 07:59 AM
First of all, if you are going to come in this thread and say well that's dumb or waste of money. Yeah it is an idea, I have been tossing around. This is my 1st post I think, I found this site looking for project cars. The time has come though to get my olds 442 out of the shed so I need to work on that.

I live in North Dakota where the weather is crappy a good portion of the year. My daily driver is a 2008 Trailblazer ss AWD, I love the AWD during winter, only way that the power from the ls2 safely makes it to the pavement, with snow and ice on the roads.

I am not just into old muscle either, I read import magazines as well because a real car guy enjoys seeing what others do to their cars or that is my philosophy. Looking at one of the import magazines I saw a few skylines and got to thinking about them being AWD, some serious horsepower can be gotten out of these cars.

Has anyone ever thought about putting AWD into a muscle car? I was looking for some radical idea to do to my 442 down the road. Doing the same old doesn't progress the car scene. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas. Mine is an ls-series engine in front of a skyline transmission or drivetrain.

The reason for this idea is I would like to have the muscle car feel, looks, but the driveability and safety of a modern car even in winter if I so choose. To me if I build a car I would like to drive it year around, or why invest the money in it.

again please keep the "that is dumb" "a waste of money" etc. comments to yourself. It is an idea, and I would like to see of those who have thought about it before.

sik68
12-02-2010, 08:17 AM
I think it's been done:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/12/24164910463_large-1.jpg

The easiest way to do it is probably to re-body an existing 4wd chassis with a similar wheel base. I know there are a lot of Bel-Air bodies dropped onto S10 chassis, so if you find the right donor car it could be quite straightforward. Although if you want AWD and not 4WD, the choices are slimmer.

censo69
12-02-2010, 08:20 AM
I think it would be pretty sweet. I would totally go for an AWD Camino .

Sorry little value but support !

pedro
12-02-2010, 08:30 AM
If you were going to use an S10 chassis I would be concerned about clearence above the T-case. If you want AWD S10 use the T-case/front diff from Astro or Bravada. I just picked up an 4WD S10 last night if you need any measurements for the chassis.

Pete

big gear head
12-02-2010, 08:38 AM
There are some guys in Poland that are customers of mine. They do some serious drag racing over there, but there are no dedicated drag strips, so traction is hard to come by. These guys build AWD drag cars. I have built three 12 bolt rear ends and two 7.2 IFS front differentials for them. They have a Typhoon, Syclone and a '77 Corvette that are AWD. The Vette is the last one that they built and they grafted a S10 4x4 front frame to the Vette frame to use the IFS. The Vette is the official fastest car in Europe for the 4th year in a row and the Typhoon is the second fastest car in Europe, and was the fastest before the Vette was finished. Go to youtube and search for king of europe and you will see the Vette and Typhoon. I have some pictures of the Vette build, but I don't know where they are.

brrymnvette
12-03-2010, 06:35 AM
Pretty sure this guy is on this site.

http://www.projectawdcamaro.com/

olason
12-03-2010, 07:24 AM
That awd camaro project is a great resource, thanks. I need to take the time to fully read it, on my phone now.

My biggest worry is the strength of some of the sts parts. I would like to put in an ls3 or ls7 down the road, so 600 to 700 horsepower sooner or later.

I hear the trailblazer ss is rated to handle 750, these parts are more bulky, yes. The holden parts if able to get would be more of what I would like to use.

I like the irs and ifs suspension idea. A good suspension upgrade at the same time.

twosaturns
12-03-2010, 07:39 AM
some time ago, I raised this very question (and it had been brought up before that as well). there was talk of using caddy CTS parts and such, and there were pictures of a few projects. I think Jeff Schwartz mentioned a project also.

big gear head
12-03-2010, 08:31 AM
The Vette is running more than 1200 HP with a 33 spline 12 bolt rear and the S10 7.2 IFS. They have run this IFS for 4 seasons without breaking it. I'm suppose to build them another one this year for a spare.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WfGmNxV1Wk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdm5dYp1n_Y&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CDyi5YUwRc&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYyJLZZOrdc&NR=1

olason
12-21-2010, 08:17 AM
talked a bit with the person from projectawdcamaro.com. I don't know how i feel about going the route with sts parts. I have a feeling that custom one off pieces are going to be needed like any radical idea. My thoughts were a skyline transmission and front differential. I would have to get all the gearing the same as well front to back as well. I am pretty new to this all, I can turn wrenches pretty well though growing up on a farm.

I am looking for a paddle shift automatic transmission as well, I want to build a 2+2 coupe out of my 1968 olds 442 to where I have a bit of luxury with all the zip. If I wanted pure performance I would just a camaro or something that has been done before for ease and availability of parts.

big gear head
12-21-2010, 10:06 AM
I think it would be easier and cheaper if you just used GM parts from the S truck. You might be able to convert a new Camaro or Cadillac transmission with the paddle shifters to work with the S truck transfer case from a Bravada or Astro van.

intropiles
12-30-2010, 06:00 AM
Hi sik68. That's cool! I should have one . LOL

marolf101x
12-30-2010, 10:38 AM
Yes, the Camaro is my project. As most of you know I am a Product Development Manager for Ridetech.

STS parts:
The Camaro is a proof of concept. It is meant only to prove that all the parts will fit and that it can be done. I realize the Caddy parts are not as strong as other options, but they are readily available and relatively small.
The plan is to keep the LS6 stock (400hp) and get everything put together. After proving everything works it'll be time to up the power and see what breaks. I fully intend to keep playing with it till it's sorted.

However, this is a long term project. I'm not a fabricator, so it takes me forever to get something done. I typically have to do it 2 or 3 times. I'd like to have the car on the road next year, but that is a lofty goal I'm likely not going to meet.

If you have questions or anything please feel free to contact me: [email protected]

formula
12-30-2010, 11:04 AM
Another layout to consider:

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_0905_1932_ford_coupe/index.html

Nessumsar
12-30-2010, 11:21 AM
Holden Commodores (Pontiac G8) come AWD in Australia. Although with a V6, I'm sure you could adapt it...

castine917
12-30-2010, 12:22 PM
i like the idea of making an awd muscle car. one of my mustang forums also discussed this for a sn95 type stang. seeing as you have an awd already at your viewing convenience in the trailblazer ss i would look at that for ideas and possible pirate parts from it too.

Motorcitydak
12-30-2010, 08:29 PM
Hey Britt, what are you going to run for knuckles and hubs? Im strongly considering this option for my car as well. Im thinking Ill try to use as many off the shelf parts as possible, so the STS driveshaft (modified for length and flange), diff, half shafts (modified for length) as well as knuckles and hubs

Also, what model is the front diff? Is it a dana 44 piece or something similar? Did it come with a LSD or is one available for it?

olason
04-29-2011, 09:01 AM
Don't want to start a new thread so I am reviving this one. I hope to discuss this some with the guys at SAE tonight on campus and hopefully the car-smart professor will be there. He has worked for almost everyone it seems, the big three are also on the list. I am wondering if the engine could be moved back to lower the car for the lower center of gravity. I have talked with britt in emails, but that was a while ago. My biggest problem is how hard it is to get CAD files or even rough dimensions of this stuff, as I am only at the shop on weekends if that I would like to make sure things should work before purchasing.

I am still doing bodywork to the car, good old midwestern rust. Any ideas? I am starting to get back into this swap. Gas going up, having a daily driver getting only 15mpg, and the desire to be different yet reliable. I realize there is going to be good cost to this project. I am also not that great of a fabricator, but am learning and have support from friends who are good with metal.

skylines run an effective awd, and seem to be the choice in imports.

Any names of people to talk to, and/or sites would be very helpful.

Thanks.

Daren
04-29-2011, 10:47 AM
Don't want to start a new thread so I am reviving this one. I hope to discuss this some with the guys at SAE tonight on campus and hopefully the car-smart professor will be there. He has worked for almost everyone it seems, the big three are also on the list. I am wondering if the engine could be moved back to lower the car for the lower center of gravity. I have talked with britt in emails, but that was a while ago. My biggest problem is how hard it is to get CAD files or even rough dimensions of this stuff, as I am only at the shop on weekends if that I would like to make sure things should work before purchasing.

I am still doing bodywork to the car, good old midwestern rust. Any ideas? I am starting to get back into this swap. Gas going up, having a daily driver getting only 15mpg, and the desire to be different yet reliable. I realize there is going to be good cost to this project. I am also not that great of a fabricator, but am learning and have support from friends who are good with metal.

skylines run an effective awd, and seem to be the choice in imports.

Any names of people to talk to, and/or sites would be very helpful.

Thanks.

Morotcitydak currently has an AWD mopar project posted in the project updates forum.

olason
06-17-2011, 08:29 AM
It has been a while, and looking at some things online. The Syclone did it have any built transfer case? I have been reading a little about builds with these pickups.

Do you think it is possible to move the engine back far enough to get the axle tube to go in front of the engine, effectively lowering the center of gravity? The next thing would be the design of the case and oiling if it was set at an angle that isn't the stock angle.

pedro
06-18-2011, 04:46 AM
It has been a while, and looking at some things online. The Syclone did it have any built transfer case? I have been reading a little about builds with these pickups.

Do you think it is possible to move the engine back far enough to get the axle tube to go in front of the engine, effectively lowering the center of gravity? The next thing would be the design of the case and oiling if it was set at an angle that isn't the stock angle.

From what I have read on syty.net the BW4472 TC will take a lot of abuse. Same TC as bravada and astro.

You would have to move a V8 at least a foot rearward just to get the crank pully in line with the front axle on an S10 Chassis.

Pete

AutoX_a_Truck?
06-18-2011, 02:09 PM
You would have to move a V8 at least a foot rearward just to get the crank pully in line with the front axle on an S10 Chassis.

Pete

That sounds about right. I used the lower control arm mounting point to mount a SBC behind the front suspension center line and several inches lower too. https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gifhttps://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Also, related to the thread in general Nelson Racing Engines/Supercars was building an AWD GTO with a mid-engine twin turbo 572 BBC making 2,000 horsepower. It is more of an unlimited budget car though, and I think they are using a trick aftermarket AWD setup. They have not updated the project in a while though.

http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/cars-and-projects/2000hp-008.html

NJSPEEDER
06-18-2011, 04:43 PM
Since you are dealing with a car that sits on a traditional frame I would think the easiest answer would be a late model GM full size. Take the rear portion of the stock Olds frame and graft of the forward part of the truck frame.

GM started putting IFS on the trucks a long time ago and there are a million lowering kits out there for them. Since you are dealing with factory suspension systems, although mismatched, it should be easy to find the parts you need to get the ride height you are going for.

I would say the biggest challenge of my idea would be matching the front track width, pretty sure the truck front end would be a good bit wider than the Olds.

-Tim

FlyDoc
12-31-2011, 09:09 PM
thinking about an AWD Pro-Touring car right now would be the transfer case and front differential.
I would run all out, thinking a Viper V10 with some Hennessey work, like 1000hp and twin turbos. Magnum 6speed.
I was thinking of C6 vet suspension and rear hubs on all 4 corners, maybe viper rear diff, thinking maybe a late C4 Dana 44 for a front differential. he front would be long with the V10 & behind the front axle. but i am at a loss for a transfer case, abut the strongest is a Dana 30, or an Atlas, but they are 4x4 units, and 2, or 4 speed cases that lock in. I know a Borg-Warner 4472 transfer AWD from and Astro ect. could take the HP, in stock configuration. So far I have not found performance parts. (still looking)
then the fun part, what car to put it under?

Kenny
01-02-2012, 08:24 AM
We have had some advancements since the BW transfer case that are more performance driving friendly. The BW unit is reasonably reliable, but just not good for ultimate handling because of the excessive front bias. The transfer case of choice would be the Astro/Safari 136 with the standalone brain or the 126 from a Bravada/ TBSS.... You would want to use the clutch pack/chain/gears from a 246 for strength. In a Mopar application you could use a SRT8 146 to give you the Mopar mounting style.

You will end up with a "146" in either configuration. This is a RWD TC with variable front assist as needed instead of the constant drag of a viscous clutch drivetrain. The biggest upside of the clutch style is for handling. The front bias can be set at under 5% and be set to be fully locked at "x" amount of rear wheel slip. It can also be bypassed for dyno tuning and burnouts at the flip of a switch without worry of damage.

The guys that helped me come up with this system have assured me that this is the only style AWD TC that can handle the abuse it will see. One of them has a 800hp AWD full weight Avalanche that sees regular dragstrip abuse.

The final objection the anti-AWD guys have is drag on top speed runs. I am working on "normally locked" front hubs that will unlock on high speed runs and during part throttle cruising for increased gas mileage.

olason
01-02-2012, 10:44 AM
The locking hubs why? Why not use something near the differential, less un-sprung weight and the availability to use the Corvette Knuckles and hubs that have been designed for racing already.

I am surprised that it is always an "add-on" component for transfer case. I like this design that I found online, but American companies tend to never incorporate the transfer case into the transmission.

53263
53262
53264

So the TBSS unit has a standalone computer unit? Do you just delete the code that involves the abs and the stabilitrak?

Kenny
01-02-2012, 11:28 AM
The latest Ford vacuum operated auto locking hubs don't seem to add any real weight over the Corvette pieces. Something near the diff would be fine as well. The purpose is so that no energy is being used to turn any of the front drive components when disengaged.

The standalone unit that you would want would be from the '99+ Astro/Safari. It controls only the TC

HPIcustoms
03-27-2014, 07:46 AM
Bring this one back from the dead....... Calling on Kenny!

I don't get to post much on this forum, time constraints etc from running a business! I run HPI Customs in Canada, we just completed a build for Paxton that you may have seen, a 1966 imperial with viper driveline called "the Tyrant". Anyways, I am in need of some assistance with a cool project for a client from europe that wants to incorporate AWD and a hemi driveline. I came across your reply in an AWD thread that seeemed to suggest you know a bit about t-cases and controllers, so here goes, hopefully you can shed some light on it.

Is there a controller that I can run standalone to control the mopar transfer case functions? I have experience running the hemis, but I need help to figure out how to make the t-case work. I am making the assumption I can run the charger rt awd transfer case. Do you know of a computer/harness I can use the run it? Any help would be awesome if you can point me in the right direction.