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69fbodyproject
11-17-2010, 05:50 PM
We have been sitting here looking at my bare unfinished rearend housing and we started discussing doing a full floater rearend. Has anyone ran one either on a road course or autocross? I am asking because I am not sure if there would be any real performance or strength advantage by going this direction.

ProBell
11-17-2010, 06:15 PM
42277I have run mine for 2 years now. I have numerous track days on it as well as 10,000 street miles and 2 auto cross events. It has numerous advantages in my book. You can put camber and tow into it, You can pull the axles and center section with out taking the tires or brakes off, If you brake a Axel the wheel will not fall off. I think it is a grate thing to do if the budget allows. Randy

69fbodyproject
11-17-2010, 06:23 PM
Thanks for your imput Randy. It would be pretty easy to do for us, because we are starting with an unfinished 4130 Bears sheetmetal housing. Its not like we would be paying to build it since about the only thing we are paying to have done is the paint and body work and the enigine tuning. How much camber and toe do you run?

Mike Holleman
11-18-2010, 06:01 AM
We have been sitting here looking at my bare unfinished rearend housing and we started discussing doing a full floater rearend. Has anyone ran one either on a road course or autocross? I am asking because I am not sure if there would be any real performance or strength advantage by going this direction.
I'm running Colemans floaters on the Elky. 17,000 hard miles without an issue. There are many advantages as Randy shows in his post. They are way stronger than a standard axle setup with zero flex. No brake knockback. Plus I change third members for different uses. Takes less than an hour, without even removing the wheels.

ProBell
11-18-2010, 03:17 PM
I run 1 Deg. of camber and .060 of tow. Randy

Ron S
12-11-2010, 04:21 AM
In my opinion, the brake knock back is the biggest advantage to the floater. My Mustang is a little scary at 150 when you have to pump the brakes up at every turn. I see a floater in my future. Ron

TnBlkC230WZ
12-11-2010, 06:58 AM
I run 1 Deg. of camber and .060 of tow. Randy

This has me interested. Did you purchase the axle with the camber and tow build in or did shim it some how?

ProBell
12-11-2010, 07:09 AM
The axles are straight. The wheel side of the axle is crowned to make up for the offset in the hub that rides on the housing that is offset.
42913

parsonsj
12-11-2010, 09:49 AM
I agree: a floating axle setup is a superior design. It just comes down to cost.

jp

parsonsj
12-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Now I'm curious: how do you pull axles without pulling the wheels? I spent hours yesterday looking at Moser's floater setups and I'm not getting that...

Help a confused mind out!

jp

Matt@BOS
12-11-2010, 11:49 AM
Now I'm curious: how do you pull axles without pulling the wheels? I spent hours yesterday looking at Moser's floater setups and I'm not getting that...

Help a confused mind out!

jp

In theory, if you pull the center cap off the wheel, although I'm guessing most cars with floaters aren't running center caps, you will be able to see (and unscrew) a cap on the drive plate which is cut to accommodate the splined axle.

Here is a picture of a floater without the wheels attached, or the axles in.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/shop159-1.jpg

Does that make anymore sense?

Matt

parsonsj
12-11-2010, 08:33 PM
OK, no center caps. Check. Pull a cover off the hub, and there's a splined shaft down there. Unless the cover includes the splines, the axle is still stuck down there behind the splines. It better have a tapped hole in the end to attach a puller. Still confused... :Alchy:

jp

Matt@BOS
12-12-2010, 12:24 AM
Yeah, I don't think I cleared anything up either because I'm not too sure. Maybe I should just spend an hour trying to figure out on my axle. Right now my best guess would be that you start unscrewing the bolt that threads into the end of the axle and just grab that....?

I'd call up Speedway Engineering but I don't want to remove all doubt that I'm an idiot.

Matt

parsonsj
12-12-2010, 07:27 AM
LOL! No problem. I always appreciate it when someone says they don't know. I'll be talking with Moser this coming week... I'll ask them.

jp

DVS51
12-12-2010, 08:49 AM
I can't speak to the new Baer setup or anything like that, but on a typical circle track floater there is a small end plate that is the only thing that holds the axle in the housing. By removing the end plate typically held on by 3 small screws you can slide the axle out. The end of the axle will be flush with the splined drive plate, but most axles have threaded holes on each end so you can screw a bolt in to pull it out. The splines on the outer (drive plate) end are larger so it should slide right out. The configuration of the drive plate will differ depending on what style hubs you are using of which there are several.

hotrdblder
12-12-2010, 12:38 PM
dv is correct, the axles dont get locked in there, and i have never needed a puller either, there is a threaded hole on the end of gun drilled axles. unscrew the 3 bolts that hold cap on, which the cap is o'ring'd remove cover, then you will see axle, simple pull out with your hand.
on full floating axles you have to put a set screw on the inside end of the axle to make sure you have full spline engagement on the driveplate.

claytonisbob
02-22-2011, 08:03 AM
How expensive is doing a full floater really?

I always wondered if anybody ran something like this:
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Grand-National-Rearend,6587.html

I am currently setting up a 12 bolt with a trutrac (pulling it out of the car to do the diff and gear swap this week), but if I hadn't already bought wheels, and everything for a 12 bolt... I'd be looking into something like this (unless there is a gleaming reason not to that I'm just missing). 5 on 5" would suck a little as most everything I plan on running in the front is 5 on 4.75". Having an extra pumpkin with some ~4.11 gears and a spool for the drag strip, and another limited slip loaded pumpkin for the autocross would be awesome. Especially if I can swap them in an hour or two. Gotta love 9" rears

For now I'm going to be running factory C-clip axles with LS1 brakes until I can figure out how I can get the 12 bolt setup with Ford ends and tapered bearings.

parsonsj
02-22-2011, 09:12 AM
We'll be running a Moser/Wilwood/II Much Fabrication floater on Unfair now. Moser put their GN floater setup on our housing. From there I drew up rotor adapters with integrated reluctor hub (for traction control/ABS) that uses the standard floater bolt pattern and supports Wilwood's big 14" rotors. I'll have the adapters back this week. The final piece of the puzzle is a caliper bracket. I'll be working on that soon.

jp

AMC Racer
02-22-2011, 09:59 AM
Are the road / circle track floaters suitable for occasional drag racing? Do you need the GN style for a 3500 lbs. street car, or will something smaller like Moser's DBP ends work? Thanks!
http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/moser-dbp-hub-packages.html

big gear head
02-22-2011, 03:15 PM
I sold a Moser housing and axle package that had the 5 on 4 1/2 bolt pattern, and the 5 on 4 3/4 is available.

Randy67
02-22-2011, 08:13 PM
In theory, if you pull the center cap off the wheel, although I'm guessing most cars with floaters aren't running center caps, you will be able to see (and unscrew) a cap on the drive plate which is cut to accommodate the splined axle.

Here is a picture of a floater without the wheels attached, or the axles in.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/10/shop159-1.jpg

Does that make anymore sense?

Matt

Here is the drive flange and end cap parts, maybe this will help clear it up?
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Drive-Flanges,2202.html
The axle slides out through the splined flange, it's not stuck behind the splines.

claytonisbob
02-22-2011, 10:45 PM
I'm still not seeing how a F.F. 9" would be much more expensive than a typical (new) setup, even using Moser assemblies. Rigging the brakes would be the only real hurdle I see... and I can't imagine that would be that big of an issue. Parking brakes on a street car would be kinda difficult I guess.

Payton King
02-23-2011, 10:20 AM
I am putting a Moser DB floater in my car as we speak. The index on the Moser was 3.06 and I had them turn it down to 2.78 to work with my HRE's. 5x4.75 with 1/2 studs. Jake and I figured out the parking brake deal. I will be posting a build/update thread soon.

Moser housing, axles and ends with shipping were around $1000-$1100.

claytonisbob
02-24-2011, 05:21 AM
Cool! Let us know how it works out.

TheJDMan
02-28-2011, 06:44 AM
The floater rear end is the hot ticket. I remember a NASCAR race last year where a driver broke an axle while leaving his pit. They brought him back down pit road and the crew pulled the retainer cap, extracted the broken parts of the axle using a magnet on a stick installed the new axle and had him back on the track in somthing like 30 seconds. I know I was impressed! BTW, there is a company called Quick Performance who sells complete 9" GN Floater housings for very reasonable prices. They currently have an auction on ebay 250778095231 selling a new 9" housing complete with hubs, bearings, seals, and Wilwood brake rotors with a Buy it Now price of $649 and they will also custom build them any length for the same price. I was planning to narrow my 12bolt then I found this company and I'm now going to sell my 12bolt and go with this 9" floater.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250778095231

theRG
02-28-2011, 11:25 PM
I would recommend Schreiner enterprises, http://www.9inchfloater.com, as a good alternative to Speedway Engineering and Coleman. Alot of vintage Mustang guys are running their stuff and it's very well built and without the cost of SE or Coleman which are more geared towards hardcore racing. But as was said the big advantage and why Holman Moody brought floaters into racing in the 60's are the safety issues, primarily no wheels flying off.

Also, if you decide to go with a cambered rear end, shouldn't make much difference on a pro-touring street/track application, make sure you have grease fittings at the driveplate (most shops have it available), but they aren't always installed as many racing bodies ban grease fittings to limit the amount of camber you can run without burning it up (blame Junior Johnson), but on a driver it's a good insurance policy.

TheJDMan, that was Jimmie Johnson who broke an axle leaving his pit, but there was stuff left in the housing from the break and it took out the ring and pinion eventually.

TheJDMan
03-01-2011, 04:01 PM
theRG,
I remember J.J. breaking an axle and yes it killed his ring and pinion. But I think it was the Red Bull team Brian Vickers which also broke an axle and successfully changed it. Their axle aparently broke close to the wheel hub and broke cleanly.

I just ran across the 9inchfloater.com site while browsing last night and I agree it looks like a great alternative.

chicane67
03-12-2011, 11:55 PM
It was Jr... not Jimmie.

It was an axle thru hardness issue from the manufacturer of the specific axle (and no, not Speedway). The axle torsionally failed due to an overheat issue during a Titanium Nitride process and the specific material of the axle itself. And to clear up the misinformation, the axle was broken while on the race surface and not during the pit stop. The car was in the pits for what seemed like a tire going low... and it actually ended up being an axle failure. They figured that out when he came off the jack.

Speedway now has the contract for Hendrick back, due to the manufacturing oversight related to Jr's axle failure.

Yo JP... I will hopefully have some picture for you very soon for the C5/6 9" floater/ABS housing and axles that we talked about sometime ago... lol

parsonsj
03-13-2011, 07:09 AM
Yo JP... I will hopefully have some picture for you very soon for the C5/6 9" floater/ABS housing and axles that we talked about sometime ago... lolHurry up! :cheers: We've been working our own solution with Moser and Wilwood parts, and I just picked up the rotor adapters with built-in reluctor yesterday. Wilwood's 14" setup will be here next week, and then I'll work the caliper bracket and sensor mount.

parsonsj
03-13-2011, 07:22 AM
I would recommend Schreiner enterprises, http://www.9inchfloater.com, as a good alternative to Speedway Engineering and Coleman. Alot of vintage Mustang guys are running their stuff and it's very well built and without the cost of SE or Coleman which are more geared towards hardcore racing. But as was said the big advantage and why Holman Moody brought floaters into racing in the 60's are the safety issues, primarily no wheels flying off. The problem with this setup is that it limits you to 11.5" rotors.

They do have an option for an 8x7" rotor adapter, but that still won't get you to Wilwood's biggest and best rotors which use a 12x8.75" bolt circle.

parsonsj
03-13-2011, 07:24 AM
I am putting a Moser DB floater in my car as we speak. The index on the Moser was 3.06 and I had them turn it down to 2.78 to work with my HRE's. 5x4.75 with 1/2 studs. Jake and I figured out the parking brake deal. I will be posting a build/update thread soon.Payton, did you post your updates yet? I want to know more about how you guys got a working parking brake.

Vegas69
03-13-2011, 08:32 AM
I'm likely going down this road myself. Haven't decided which direction just yet...

TheJDMan
03-13-2011, 05:40 PM
The problem with this setup is that it limits you to 11.5" rotors.

They do have an option for an 8x7" rotor adapter, but that still won't get you to Wilwood's biggest and best rotors which use a 12x8.75" bolt circle.

Wilwood makes a GT48 series 13.06" diameter rotor in the 8 on 7" bolt pattern. I don't have the pn but it is listed on their web site.

Payton King
03-14-2011, 09:21 AM
I have not posted anything. Trying to wait until it is complete and kind of do it in one shot. I am using the Moser DB floater hubs. The center register is 3.06 and had them turn it down to 2.78 to work with my wheels. The DB is also 5x4.75 with 1/2 studs, again to work with existing wheels. If you look at that hub on their site you will see they have a place to mount the rotor adapters. I (actually Jake)took a Wilwood hat with the parking brake. They make one that has one bolt pattern and is very close to the same depth as the one I had. We used that one because the one with my kit had 3 different bolt patterns and there was not enough "meat" when we redrilled. Anyway, we machined out the center of the hat to fit over the hub, clocked the hat and drilled new mounting holes. There was room to run bolts from the inside of the hat to attach to the hub. Made a mount for the parking brake/caliper mount for the axle tube. Looks alot like an axle flange but on the tube instead of the end. It does not get any more simple than that. If you need further explanation call me at 704-564-8577, that is my cell. Hope this helps Hub http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/dbp-hub-assembly.html

parsonsj
03-14-2011, 09:38 AM
Wilwood makes a GT48 series 13.06" diameter rotor in the 8 on 7" bolt pattern.That's right. That's the biggest possible rotor you could use, and it's on the edge of good engineering practices. Most of Wilwood's stuff in 13" and 14" uses the 12x8.75 bolt pattern, and there's a reason for that.

Maybe you could use the GT48 rotor and drill it for 5/16" bolts, and use high quality fasteners and safety wire and be OK.

parsonsj
03-14-2011, 04:05 PM
Here's a quick pic of the rotor adapters we're using on Unfair. I just picked these up from my machinist. The smaller -- and non-reluctor -- version is Moser's standard part for use with smaller rotors.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

RobNoLimit
03-14-2011, 04:16 PM
I am running a floater, 1+yrs, and over 5k miles, over 50 track and autocross events. No problems. I'm using a coleman 9" that I got from Motorstate. Speedway and motorstate sell the hubs and tube ends seporate, and it's not too expensive. Baer also has a cool floater hub set up with brakes.

Payton King
03-21-2011, 09:50 AM
Finally got a few pics. Jake changed the way we had discussed and I like the way it turned out. He machined out the center of the parking brake hat. Turned down the rotor adapter and mounted the 2 together. Due to the spacing, no way would this set-up work with a big lip style rim. I am running C6Z06 size rims in the back so my backspacing is around 8 inches.

parsonsj
04-05-2011, 10:44 AM
Nice stuff Payton. I've just finished up Unfair's floater setup, and found the same thing: It consumes a whole bunch of space. Big lip wheels need not apply.

45891

Matt@BOS
04-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Nice stuff Payton. I've just finished up Unfair's floater setup, and found the same thing: It consumes a whole bunch of space. Big lip wheels need not apply.

45891

Wait, I don't quite understand what you're saying John. Can you clarify? I probably could have re-hooped my wheels to run a larger lip post floater.

*edit* I'm guessing you were talking about Payton's setup. That would make sense...

Oh and I should also add, I finally got a chance to test the floater out on the Goodguys peanut autocross and it preformed just as it should have. It was nice not having to worry about tapping the brakes up on such a tight course, or having an inconsistent pedal. I did notice it leaking a tiny bit into the wheel hoop, but I figure that is just routine maintenance after flogging the car.

Matt

parsonsj
04-05-2011, 01:46 PM
Matt, I was talking about my setup. My caliper bolts will actually hit the frame rail. I've got some minor notching to do. If my housing was two inches wider it would work without notching... and those two inches would come out of the wheel lip.

Hope that makes sense.

Matt@BOS
04-05-2011, 05:14 PM
Matt, I was talking about my setup. My caliper bolts will actually hit the frame rail. I've got some minor notching to do. If my housing was two inches wider it would work without notching... and those two inches would come out of the wheel lip.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, I think that makes sense. We never had that problem on my car, but it might have been because we had to mount the calipers "forward" of the axle housing at a 9 o'clock position rather than on the back of the axle housing because the caliper would have hit the DSE panhard bar mount. I also have to wonder if it will be easier for people installing floaters in the future to put them on the "forward" side as the frame rails angle out towards the back of the car.

Matt

parsonsj
04-05-2011, 05:31 PM
I chose to put the caliper behind the axle to give myself as much room as possible. The clearance in front of the axle is less since the frame rail is kicking up where the caliper is. The frame rails do kick out slightly, but the sheet metal in front of the axle is just as restrictive.

Payton King
04-06-2011, 05:18 AM
Matt,

Are you running axle tube seals? If not you need to get them. This will keep the gear lube where it needs to be and will keep it (lube) from going down the tube and washing the grease out of the bearings...and help with leaks around the seal.

Matt@BOS
04-06-2011, 08:17 AM
Matt,

Are you running axle tube seals? If not you need to get them. This will keep the gear lube where it needs to be and will keep it (lube) from going down the tube and washing the grease out of the bearings...and help with leaks around the seal.

Yes! It does have seals. I'll probably probably pull it apart and inspect it. I doubt it is anything to worry about. I've been told replacing the seals is typical. We'll see...

Matt

parsonsj
04-06-2011, 08:38 AM
Matt,

Are you running axle tube seals? If not you need to get them. This will keep the gear lube where it needs to be and will keep it (lube) from going down the tube and washing the grease out of the bearings...and help with leaks around the seal.

I need to get a set too. The instructions said that you could either use grease on the axle bearings or let the differential gear lube provide the lube. I'd just as soon keep the gear lube in the center section.

jp

Nessumsar
04-06-2011, 10:06 AM
Seeing this thread got me to thinking. Would it be possible to cut the ends off of a Corporate 14-bolt and weld them on to the axle tubes of a 10-bolt 8.5"? I would think you could get a junkyard 14-bolt pretty cheap and use the ends off of it. Onlything is, would there be axles available?

edit: Just thought about the differences in wheel bolt patterns, some way to solve that?

Payton King
04-06-2011, 12:17 PM
I was talking about inner tube axle seals. When you take the third member out, you install them in the axle tube. You also have the regular seals at the other end next to the hubs. I was told by a couple of people not to let the diff fluid get to the bearings and wash out the grease. Not sure who is correct.
http://www.moserengineering.com/circle-track-packages-and-parts/inner-tube-seal-3.html

hotrdblder
04-06-2011, 01:26 PM
seals it, inner tube seals are the best.
you do not want gear oil out inthe bearings, it will wash it out and you will cook them.
the outer seal is not like a reg 9 inch outer seal, the drive plate has a cork seal that you need to silicon as well to keep gear oil from leaking, then the 3 bolt axle cap has an o ring to seal it against the drive plate.

Randy67
04-07-2011, 05:49 AM
Seeing this thread got me to thinking. Would it be possible to cut the ends off of a Corporate 14-bolt and weld them on to the axle tubes of a 10-bolt 8.5"? I would think you could get a junkyard 14-bolt pretty cheap and use the ends off of it. Onlything is, would there be axles available?

edit: Just thought about the differences in wheel bolt patterns, some way to solve that?

Only problem there is the truck axle tubes are 1/2" thick, the 10-bolt is quite a bit thinner. Most circle track suppliers sell the tubes with full-floater ends (different ends than trucks have) or just the ends. lefthanderchassis.com has them along with others like speedway engineering.
Examples here: https://www.lefthanderchassis.com/v2a/products.asp?idcategory=408

parsonsj
04-07-2011, 06:06 AM
the drive plate has a cork seal that you need to silicon as well to keep gear oil from leakingThe Moser GN drive plate has an O-ring.

Nessumsar
04-07-2011, 07:57 AM
Only problem there is the truck axle tubes are 1/2" thick, the 10-bolt is quite a bit thinner. Most circle track suppliers sell the tubes with full-floater ends (different ends than trucks have) or just the ends. lefthanderchassis.com has them along with others like speedway engineering.
Examples here: https://www.lefthanderchassis.com/v2a/products.asp?idcategory=408

Makes sense that the truck axle would have thicker tubes. It doesn't seem like it is too pricey to build your own anyways, now that I've taken the time to look at some parts.

hotrdblder
04-07-2011, 01:51 PM
are you talking about the drive plate to hub or the axle center cap seal?
Either way you will find it needing silicon after hard use, especially if the tapered drive plates bolts loosen at all. the catch is, you dont want to loc tite them as you need to service the bearings after each track use generally, i like to use a dab of silicon on the threads which acts as a loc tite but they come out easy. when done right it doesnt make a mess.

parsonsj
04-07-2011, 01:58 PM
Drive plate. The GN setup has 2 O-rings per side, 4 in all.

I hear ya about the drive plate bolts, but shouldn't the lug nuts keep everything solid and tight?

jp

hotrdblder
04-07-2011, 05:44 PM
yes the lug nut do keep everything tight, but if you change wheels etc and the bolt are loose it will break the seal and leak. more then likely you will figure out what your hubs need for maintenance. i have a feeling for the street, you will be good for an oil change period or so, but add ina track day etc they should checked and re packed.
you want to use the best grease possible, the stickier the better, so it takes alot to wash them out.

Motorcitydak
04-11-2011, 08:04 PM
I sold a Moser housing and axle package that had the 5 on 4 1/2 bolt pattern, and the 5 on 4 3/4 is available.

That was to me! I love the axle, some day soon I will get to see how it does on the street. Im sure it will be great. It has been helpful so far just being able to roll the car around with just the empty housing and some wheels bolted to it

TheJDMan
06-04-2011, 06:42 PM
The axle tube seal was designed to keep the gear lube in the center section on a circle track car that is constantly turning left. I fail to see why you would want them for auto-x, road racing or street use. The gear lube is a more effecient lube and it also has the added benefit of cooling the wheel bearings. You simply compensate for the extra lube in the wheel hubs by adding a little more gear lube initially.

The GMR
06-28-2011, 07:21 AM
something is brewing over at GMR...

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/06/PTRhubsonshelf-1.jpg?t=1309274435

Jason

Randy67
06-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Do tell, Do tell!!!!!!

John Wright
06-28-2011, 11:38 AM
They look great Jason...love the finish on them

HarleyR
06-28-2011, 02:37 PM
Keep the oil in the gear and use a good quality grease of the hubs.I have tested oil filled hubs in the most controlled ways possible and never found and advantage...I dont need to get into detail of what greases were the best simply because they would be more trouble than they'd be worth

Roadbuster
06-28-2011, 09:04 PM
something is brewing over at GMR...

Jason

Very Nice! Details please!

Greg from Aus
07-01-2011, 01:34 AM
It's the 1st July here in Australia, I'm waiting.

Greg

The GMR
07-01-2011, 06:46 AM
https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?81011-7-1-11


ask and you shall receive!

jason