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View Full Version : RTTH6 course, Smokey's Parking Lot



ACR-Mark
07-15-2010, 08:38 AM
The orange area in the attached picture represents approximately the area that was used for RTTH 5. Does anyone know if the blue area that I marked off is usable? I went back and watched my in-car videos from last year, but it's impossible to tell if the pavement is clean/usable, etc.
I seem to remember being able to pull off into that area after finishing the course.

Larry Callahan
07-15-2010, 08:54 AM
We didn't use the blue area before. It was staging and where you went when you left the autocross track. There is a wide concrete diver between them to if I remember.

xxxturbo6
07-15-2010, 09:08 AM
There is also a step up in the blacktop dividing that area. That was to be fixed but never was. That bump in the transition would be too much to include in the course so as Larry said it was just used as a Staging & Exit area only.

Trust Bill, If he could utilize more room i'm sure he would! Still a complete Blast every year..


SW.

ACR-Mark
07-15-2010, 09:10 AM
The concrete divider is a definite possibility, though from the picture, I do not see one there. The picture could be old though. I don't remember seeing one in my videos, but it's been a few days since I watched them.
If there is no divider, and the pavement is clean, we could get a pretty sweet course flow. I'm going to come up with a few ideas, which I'll post in the next week or so, and then we'll just have to see what it looks like when we get there.

ACR-Mark
07-15-2010, 09:15 AM
xxx, looks like you posted while I was typing. Yeah, a step would definitely be a no-go.
Still, I have some ideas for the multi-lap thing and where to place the timers so that a longer course is possible without having to trip the timers each time.
AT RTTH 5, there was no way the second lap could be faster unless the first lap got hosed somehow. Sweeping through the timers was just not as fast as the drag race start.
The course was really good though. Doesn't need to change much at all.

avewhtboy
07-15-2010, 09:41 AM
From what I remember its a about 1 to 1 1/2 inch step between them. Its possible could go down it but wouldn't want to come back up it.

Larry Callahan
07-15-2010, 10:17 AM
Watch the last 10 seconds of this for the bump

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ACR-Mark
07-15-2010, 04:16 PM
When I watched that video a few days ago, I wasn't looking for the bump. Now that I knew to look for it, it's as plain as day.
Oh well.....

01badz28
07-21-2010, 06:26 AM
The last time we ran an SCCA event there we ran over the bump into the old lot and no one was really happy using it. I also seem to recall that the stadium asked us not to use that portion anymore until they repaved it (which has never happened) since it was breaking up - so I'm not sure if Bill is under the same restrictions or not.

ACR-Mark
09-08-2010, 06:06 PM
This is approximately what the RTTH 5 course looked like last year:

ACR-Mark
09-08-2010, 06:14 PM
I came up with about 5 possibilities for course layout, but I think this one will work the best for drivers and workers. It is a slight variation to last year's course. I flattened out the section after the first hard right to make it flow better/longer without having to slam on the brakes. This is a 2 lapper that should add about 10 seconds to the previous course, making for mid to upper 40's for the faster cars. Gate 1 takes you around and flows back into the course behind the timing lights. Gate 2 puts you through the finish, and you exit just like last year.
Tri-Lakes Sports Car Club puts courses like this together at their event sites, due to the small lots they use. They work really well as long as the drivers and workers understand the course flow.
Please understand that this is just an idea to get people thinking, and I am happy to help out with setup on Saturday morning. I'll be there early.

JEFFTATE
09-08-2010, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the input Mark.

Derek69SS
09-08-2010, 08:06 PM
My opinion, which may be biased because of my lack of horsepower, is that the course should be a little tighter with more turns in it to make it more about handling, driving ability, and car setup. Let the horsepower wars be fought on the dragstrip. I know I'd be giving up huge amounts of time on that long straightaway before turn 1, between 1 and 2, and after the big sweeper after the slolom. Sucks losing an autocross because you're no good at going straight. :doh: (not that I expect to "win" anything)

I do like the pinch point you have right before the start timers to make it not so critical to get a good launch. It's safer for the starter and better for the paint on the car next in line if you don't have people spinning the tires hard at the line. Also, it's not so hard on drivetrain parts by making it somewhat of a "rolling start"... as a guy with a weak transmission, I appreciate that. :twothumbs

I also really like the back section right before the slolom... if it can be just like it's drawn, that layout will really reward running a good line, and really bite your ass if you don't. :fingersx: Getting 2 chances at it per run is even better.

ACR-Mark
09-09-2010, 04:10 AM
You have to remember, that parking lot is extremely small. What looks like a straight, really isn't a straight. Last year was a drag race start to the first turn, mine is a bit more curvy.
I too suffer from the fact that my car is not a drag car, but putting it to the floor, slamming on the brakes, then repeating that several times is not fun either, which is why I proposed smoothing it out.
If by some strange chance we set up the course per my layout, we will still find that it is small and tight. My goal was only to come up with a way to turn that lap before the timers. At last year's event, there was technically no way you could run the 2nd lap faster than the first, unless you hosed the first.

Finch
09-09-2010, 04:33 AM
I still think we need to have a layout that allows for 2 timed laps, so if you do screw up your first lap you can still run a decent second lap. This will allow you to at least get a time in the books which can be a struggle with a limited number of attempts.

Also as we learned at PSMC these cars need room so wider is better.

Post up some of the other ideas you had.....

protouring70
09-09-2010, 04:44 AM
Thanks for brainstorming Mark! It is difficult if the lot is small, but like Finch said there are some cars that need larger lanes.

ACR-Mark
09-09-2010, 04:44 AM
Brian, that's a good point. Still, with a well organized event, I think it is possible to get 5 or 6 runs in, even with a longer course. That should be plenty of opportunities for everyone to post a good run. Again, these are only my opinions and ideas, and I will happily run whatever course layout I'm told!! Ha Ha.
I will scan and post the other course ideas tonight after work. For the most part, they are "mad scientist" creations, and way too technical for the beginner and confusing for the course workers. They would be fun though.....
Oh, and don't forget, what looks tight on my map is in no way intended to be tight at the event. I had every intention of opening things up, so being there and laying it out will be better than trying to scale it on a small map.

01badz28
09-09-2010, 09:08 AM
The other thing to keep in mind is to keep the course simple and easy to follow for those folks that don't do this stuff often. Multilappers that result in multiple cone strikes / DNFs will not be fun for anyone.

My only suggestion for the course this year would be to see if Bill will be bringing some chalk (if not, I'll bring some). This should keep the course from migrating back and forth.

Derek69SS, we ran a pretty similar (damn near identical) course the year before, and these were the results: https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48052

The Impala and my Camaro were putting less than 400 rwhp down, and I think the Ultima had around 800. With a lot the size of Smokies driver skill, tires, and suspension will play more a roll than power.

ACR-Mark
09-09-2010, 09:17 AM
I brought some chalk to PSMC 2, so if Bill took it with him, there should still be plenty left over.
I think the multi-lap that I show should work out easily even for the novice, some of the other ideas I had would not be so easy, that's why I only posted one.
I'll be willing to ride along with the novices at RTTH like I did at PSMC, and ensure that no one gets DNF'd. The course walk through is helpful as well, as long as people pay attention.

GeoffP
09-09-2010, 01:41 PM
Mark,

I'd love to get you to ride with me at least once!

71duster
09-09-2010, 02:52 PM
I'll be willing to ride along with the novices at RTTH like I did at PSMC, and ensure that no one gets DNF'd. The course walk through is helpful as well, as long as people pay attention.

the more walk throughs the better! i usually walk it through with my buddies and then go back a few times by myself.

Bill Howell
09-09-2010, 05:06 PM
Sorry guys, late to this one, been busy getting ready for the weekend.
Yes, I do still have the chalk so that will be a huge help this year.

I have been holding back a few surprises for the weekend, so I will share one with everyone now.
Danny Popp, a multi-time national autocross champ, that several met at the Gingerman track earlier this year will be at RTTHs. He and another instructor are coming, mainly because they love Pigeon Forge and love autocrossing but they will be on hand to help set up the track for us this year, hopefully it will be better than before with a professional setting it up. They will also be here all day for ride alongs to help anyone that wants some instruction. I know Danny helped me and my times tremendously at Gingerman and look foward to some instruction here.

ACR-Mark
09-09-2010, 05:17 PM
Per earlier request, here are the rest of the ideas I had. Sorry they are in black and white, they never made it past sketches onto the color printouts I had.
Option 2 is a counter-clockwise flow, but I didn't like where the finish ended up.
Option 3 really stretched out the flow, but again, I didn't like the finish, and the wrap-around on the bottom could be confusing (which way).
Option 4 would have been a nightmare for the course worker. No good way to tell if someone really DNF'd or not. A course I had run on a small lot in the past inspired me on that one. Way too complicated.
Option 5 was just a counter-clockwise variation to last year's course, with a different twist on how to finish.
Looking forward to running against Danny. I have yet to make it to Nationals, just too busy with kids and other projects the past 6 years. About a month ago, I almost thought about going (Nationals is this week). Without running a Tour event though, they would have got me for and additional $188 on top of the regular entry fee. No thanks, probably next year though.

Bill Howell
09-09-2010, 05:26 PM
I forgot to add this link,

http://www.1010thsmotorsports.com/releases/release/5419069/15518.htm

OR you can just google Danny Popp, it is an honor to have him here, helping out at RTTHs

Bill Howell
09-09-2010, 05:30 PM
I like a couple of those Mark, really like the long one that doubles itself. As much as I hated the box at PSMC, it was a good feature, may do that too. I look forward to see what Danny's take on the lot is. I am sure it will be a change from our normal setup. I will tell him to look at this thread too, see what he thinks.
Thanks

TonyBolton
09-10-2010, 03:12 AM
I'm glad we're getting away from the bottom spaghetti turns. I love the event, but those bottom turns were just absolutely brutal.....and a front tire shredder. :(

Bad94
09-10-2010, 03:44 AM
Sorry guys, late to this one, been busy getting ready for the weekend.
Yes, I do still have the chalk so that will be a huge help this year.

I have been holding back a few surprises for the weekend, so I will share one with everyone now.
Danny Popp, a multi-time national autocross champ, that several met at the Gingerman track earlier this year will be at RTTHs. He and another instructor are coming, mainly because they love Pigeon Forge and love autocrossing but they will be on hand to help set up the track for us this year, hopefully it will be better than before with a professional setting it up. They will also be here all day for ride alongs to help anyone that wants some instruction. I know Danny helped me and my times tremendously at Gingerman and look foward to some instruction here.


I was just at my machine shop, picking up some last min parts and he was asking me if i knew Danny, and if Danny went to this event.

TonyBolton
09-10-2010, 05:22 AM
I ran against Danny one time at a National event in Nashville. I believe he was running a fairly wicked little black C4 Vette. I gave a valiant showing, but I think he got me by .4 or .6-something. Musta been the LT-powah!!! ;)

01badz28
09-10-2010, 09:02 AM
I'm glad we're getting away from the bottom spaghetti turns. I love the event, but those bottom turns were just absolutely brutal.....and a front tire shredder. :(

+1 - I'm really looking forward to this one.

JEFFTATE
09-10-2010, 01:00 PM
I still think we need to have a layout that allows for 2 timed laps,
Also as we learned at PSMC these cars need room so wider is better.

.....

Ditto on this ..

RAFTRACER
09-13-2010, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the introduction Bill, but it was actually Putnam where we rode in that crazy Charger of yours...and in Stacey's beautiful Camaro......man I had fun that day !!

I really look forward to helping with the event and working with ACR on the course design. I have been doing autocross course design and set up for a long, long time. Since I have always been a "big" car kind of guy, I know how to keep big cars happy on an autocross course and also make things very visible on course for the newer participants (and less possibility of hitting cones )

Since that event in May @ Putnam I also thought what a good venue for me to un-mothball the ole '72 LT-1 Corvette at. Been 6 years since I have driven the car on an autocross course, but look forward to going "old school" with all of you guys this weekend. I am sure it will be a hoot for all of us.

Look forward to meeting everyone :drive:

Bill Howell
09-13-2010, 06:16 PM
Welcome to Protouring Danny. As you know from Putnam Park, there are some pretty cool hotrods around here.
Good to talk with you again today and we will have a blast this weekend. Just so everyone knows, it will be rain or shine. While good weather is prodicted this weekend, they ran a wet autocross and LS Fest last weekend, so will we. Everyone have a safe trip down and we will see you soon.

xxxturbo6
09-13-2010, 06:29 PM
Thanks for the introduction Bill, but it was actually Putnam where we rode in that crazy Charger of yours...and in Stacey's beautiful Camaro......man I had fun that day !!

I really look forward to helping with the event and working with ACR on the course design. I have been doing autocross course design and set up for a long, long time. Since I have always been a "big" car kind of guy, I know how to keep big cars happy on an autocross course and also make things very visible on course for the newer participants (and less possibility of hitting cones )

Since that event in May @ Putnam I also thought what a good venue for me to un-mothball the ole '72 LT-1 Corvette at. Been 6 years since I have driven the car on an autocross course, but look forward to going "old school" with all of you guys this weekend. I am sure it will be a hoot for all of us.

Look forward to meeting everyone :drive: Danny,

It's going to be a pleasure to finally meet you. I have heard A LOT about you from my friend Eric yueingling (sure I butched the spelling) that you used to work with. He helped me with my wheel & tire combo on our GNS Test Car (1986 T-Type "GNXRAY").. We are in a complete thrash this week installing the full DSE suspension on the car at DSE's facility on Tuesday & Wendsday then I have to get the allignment done on thursday and make the first leg of RTTH on friday and compete on sat & sun.... You will have a Blast at this event, Everyone does!!

Scot W.

RAFTRACER
09-14-2010, 07:57 AM
Looks like there are many unseen obstacles in that lot from the pictures on google earth and what is being reported here. Sure would by nice to have a longer course that you can at least get two cars on so that we can get more runs in. Sure wish all of those islands were not there. I will be at the site early on Friday morning with Bill and whoever else would like to be present to inspect the lot and figure out exactly what to do. Seems as if ACR has some reasonable ideas and seems to know the lot. Even though there are obstacles there are ways to run around them safely. How much , how many of the lots are we allowed to occupy for pits,grid,staging,course etc. ??? I may be fooled by the pictures, but it seems as if it is a reasonably sized place. It would be better to have a non-looping course, but if we cannot get enough course length in without it, that is what it'll have to be. The course certainly needs to be more open for some of the larger cars ( and I thought Corvettes were large :) ). As far as the course focusing on handling, it will. Taking acceleration runs out of the course though seems like a bad idea....if that is what you want all you need is a skid pad. Autocross focuses on all aspects.....acceleration, braking and cornering ability as well as the drivers ability. We will go as fast as the lot will allow safely......No one likes going slow on a painful course.

ACR-Mark
09-14-2010, 09:02 AM
Danny, take a look at page 1 of this thread, it has a link to in-car footage from my RX-8. You can get a better idea of the size of the lot from this. It's small, but not the smallest I've ever run on.

Scott Parkhurst
09-14-2010, 09:25 AM
Corvettes are not large.

Station wagons are large.

Looking forward to seeing everyone and also to meeting you, Danny! I'd love for you to pilot my 4-door wagon around the course to see what it's really capable of.

RAFTRACER
09-14-2010, 09:39 AM
Danny, take a look at page 1 of this thread, it has a link to in-car footage from my RX-8. You can get a better idea of the size of the lot from this. It's small, but not the smallest I've ever run on.

I have looked at this thread from page one , but I dont know the nuances of the lot and the circumstances that lead to running the events like has been done in the past. The lot looks large in the pictures, but in talking with an ETR SCCA member a few minutes ago he told me what he knew about the lot. I guess that it is not all paved the same and has obstruction challenges..

Together we will make the most of what we have for everyones enjoyment....

01badz28
09-14-2010, 11:28 AM
I have looked at this thread from page one , but I dont know the nuances of the lot and the circumstances that lead to running the events like has been done in the past. The lot looks large in the pictures, but in talking with an ETR SCCA member a few minutes ago he told me what he knew about the lot. I guess that it is not all paved the same and has obstruction challenges..

Together we will make the most of what we have for everyones enjoyment....

The section Mark colored blue in his original picture is poor shape / breaking up. Its also about .5 to an 1" lower than the orange shaded portion. The last time I ran an ETR event there, we used this section, but everybody complained about the bumps. It is my understanding that ETR was asked not to use that portion of the lot until it was repaved, but I don't know if Bill has been told the same.

We usually (past RTTH and ETR events) paddock in the yellow section and use the black section for grid. I don't know what you have planned, but if we could use the yellow section for the course, and the crappy blue section for grid / paddock, we could use the upper portion of the lot for extra room and not have to worry about pavement breaks / bumps.

At any rate, I'll be there early if you all need any assistance.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/Smokies-1.jpg

EDIT: Danny, I'm the guy Pilson talked to you about.

LeadSSled
09-14-2010, 05:28 PM
Sounds like some some good and capable minds are working on the course layout. I'm very much looking forward to the result. It should be interesting for me this year. I'll actually be running the taxicab on street tires this time. :D

And I'm looking forward to meeting Mr. Popp and his "big car". I've heard a lot about him.