Stock height tall spindle

[another69]

Does anyone make one of these to fit the 1st gen f body? In other words, stock spindle location & steering arm mount, but with a relocated "tall" upper ball joint mount? I would prefer forged steel, similar to Heidt's, but I can't find any unless they have a drop.

[nor_cal_67rs]

Check these out... http://www.lhkustoms.com/

[another69]

Wow- those look nice. My only concern would be about the AL construction. I'll call and see how strong they are. I was hoping to stick with steel and be assured they would be at least as strong as the stockers. Spindles are one area where overbuilt seems right.

Anyone out there using these?

[BrianP]

DSE makes a 4140 forged steel one for the A-bodies. I think that they only sell it with their control arm package. It is 1.5 inches taller but has a 2 inch drop in the spindle though. I would like to know from any vendors if it is available for purchase separately. Now that the AFX spindle is $1099 it's time to look elsewhere.

[killer69]

the ATS ones have a 7/8 drop and i have herd there are a few sets in stock righ now.

[L & H Kustoms]

Does anyone make one of these to fit the 1st gen f body? In other words, stock spindle location & steering arm mount, but with a relocated "tall" upper ball joint mount? I would prefer forged steel, similar to Heidt's, but I can't find any unless they have a drop.

We offer a tall non drop spindle which is machined from 6061 T6 aluminum and contains a 4130 Chromoloy spindle pin and allow you to use run "any" disc brake kit designed for the factory disc spindle whether it be stock 11" disc brakes, Baer brakes, Willwood, C5/C6 conversion( Ours & Kore3), SSBC, CPP etc. We've done our homework and our destructive testing and our spindle can take 50k lbs of force and not break and can take well beyond a million load cycles. The stock oem forged spindle broke with 36k lbs of force applied in the same manner. We are the only company to offer a tall non drop spindle.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/100_2082-1.jpg

Every other company that manufactures a Tall spindle DSE, ATS, Chassiworks, Heidts, CPP, drops the ride height which is the improper way to lower your car unless you don't care about about improving the geometry. You need to lower the car with high performance lowering springs to bring the lower A arm level with the ground to help improve the handling and not just with a static drop spindle which only improves looks and not geometry.

[L & H Kustoms]

DSE makes a 4140 forged steel one for the A-bodies. I think that they only sell it with their control arm package. It is 1.5 inches taller but has a 2 inch drop in the spindle though. I would like to know from any vendors if it is available for purchase separately. Now that the AFX spindle is $1099 it's time to look elsewhere.

DSE only sells their spindle as a kit. Our Pro Billet spindles are $750 and through the end of march we are offering free shipping as well and you can run our spindles with whetever brakes you want. With the AFX spindle you are required to run brakes designed for the C5/C6 and have to upgrade the brakes and wheels/tires all at once. With ours you can run our spindles and slowly upgrade to bigger brakes and wheels/tires as you want and as your budget allows. No need to have parts sitting on the shelf while saving more money to get everything else needed to get the improved geometry. With our spindle you can purchase them and "a short upper arm if it's an A body" and your on the road reaping the benefits.

[Randy67]

Wow- those look nice. My only concern would be about the AL construction. I'll call and see how strong they are. I was hoping to stick with steel and be assured they would be at least as strong as the stockers. Spindles are one area where overbuilt seems right.

Anyone out there using these?

Corvette have been using aluminum spindles at least since the C5 came out (maybe earlier, not sure), and C4 vettes had aluminum control arms as well. Properly designed and built, the aluminum spindle strength won't be a problem, JMHO.

[L & H Kustoms]

......Anyone out there using these?

There are a quite a few customers on this board and many lurkers/non posters who have our Pro Billet™ spindles installed and on the road

But Corey was the first customer to get them installed and on the road.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63469&highlight=l%26h+spindles

[JohnUlaszek]

Corvette have been using aluminum spindles at least since the C5 came out (maybe earlier, not sure), and C4 vettes had aluminum control arms as well. Properly designed and built, the aluminum spindle strength won't be a problem, JMHO.

As L&H's press fit design appears to be unique in the industry, it's worth discussing how it differs from the proven Corvette design.

The Corvette upright features a unit bearing bolted to the upright. The bolted unit bearing distributes the load over a much greater area than the pressed in pin. It should be noted the original spindle is forged from a single piece of 1046 steel.

Whereas a pressed in spindle induces significant hoop stress to the aluminum upright, bolting a unit bearing to the spindle distributes the relatively lower compressive bolted joint stresses over a much greater area.

As L&H has previously stated, it's parts will fail from fatigue before the OEM forged steel spindle, thus regular inspections are required which will be complicated by the need to remove the pressed in spindle and inserts but would be simpler on the Corvette part if such inspection is needed.


Photo of C6 Spindle is from Morrison's Site
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[TitoJones]

I'm going to have to correct you on your info there John.

The C5 spindle is NOT forged. It is a pressure casting off A356 aluminum. The AFX spindle IS forged of 6061-T6 aluminum and is 32% stronger than an OEM piece. While we had to put a drop into our spindle to use the C5 cartridge, it is minimal by 'drop' spindle standards at 7/8" and will help maintain suspension travel as well as improve the geometry.

There are lots of options out there at this point, with more rumored to be on the way. Nice time to be a consumer.

Tyler

[JohnUlaszek]

I'm going to have to correct you on your info there John.

The C5 spindle is NOT forged. It is a pressure casting off A356 aluminum. The AFX spindle IS forged of 6061-T6 aluminum and is 32% stronger than an OEM piece. While we had to put a drop into our spindle to use the C5 cartridge, it is minimal by 'drop' spindle standards at 7/8" and will help maintain suspension travel as well as improve the geometry.

There are lots of options out there at this point, with more rumored to be on the way. Nice time to be a consumer.

Tyler

I was referring to the C6 spindle, which I thought was forged, is it also pressure cast? Is it safe to assume the pressure cast A356 is stronger than a machined billet of 6061?

[TitoJones]

I was referring to the C6 spindle, which I thought was forged, is it also pressure cast? Is it safe to assume the pressure cast A356 is stronger than a machined billet of 6061?

I can't answer the 2nd question; but the C6 is also pressure cast, and is thicker to reduce the 6 piston calipers from flexing the casting.

Tyler

[JohnUlaszek]

As follows is according to Morrison's site, but it could be a typo.

"This latest addition to Morrison’s "Weld in Front Subframe Line" provides an excellent foundation for anyone wanting to use Corvette C6 Front Suspension Components. Utilizing the forged aluminum control arms and spindles from the 1997-2004 C6 Corvette. Available in 57 1/2" or 61 1/2" Track Widths. (Please specify when placing your order). Photo Shown includes available Rack and Pinion and Strange Coilover Shocks."

[TitoJones]

I thought the exact same thing when I had them in hand; when we were doing the engineering and development of the AFX spindle we contacted the foundry and discovered they were pressure castings, not forgings. We were shocked.

Tyler

[JohnUlaszek]

I removed the references about forging vs billet from the original post until I can verify the info.

I will defer to your experience with the foundry, but my points about how a unit bearing design compares to a press fit are still valid.

[wiedemab]

Every other company that manufactures a Tall spindle DSE, ATS, Chassiworks, Heidts, CPP, drops the ride height which is the improper way to lower your car unless you don't care about about improving the geometry. You need to lower the car with high performance lowering springs to bring the lower A arm level with the ground to help improve the handling and not just with a static drop spindle which only improves looks and not geometry.

This seems like a pretty broad and all encompassing statement without a lot of data to back it up. I don't doubt that there are tall/lowering spindles that don't properly address the geometry issues with the A/F-body front suspension, as you state yours does.

I find it very hard to believe that some of the companies you list would put a product out that did not address the geometry issues.

The statement where you say that dropping the ride height is an improper way to lower a car is a self contradicting statement. How else would lower a vehicle, other than to drop the ride height. I understand that you meant lowering the vehicle via raising the pin height on the spindle is the incorrect way to lower a vehicle, but that is again a blanket statement that doesn't take into account the other changes that occur with the geometry due to the taller spindle and increase caster (due to control arm modifications). If a desirable geometry can be achieved by a tall spindle, that also has a pin height change, keeping in mind the roll center height, migration etc., I don't see why that has to be considered the "wrong way".

Sorry for the semi-rant. I just don't like blanket negative statements from one manufacturer toward other manufacturers. I much prefer that the data be presented for your product and let the consumer (which is in the case of this community, is a fairly educated consumer) make their own decision. I do know that at this specific time the tall spindles from DSE are not being marketed toward F-body (only A-body)for control arm interference reasons. I don't know about the others, but obviously ATS spindles will work are applicable to the F-body.

To the original poster's question, LH Kustoms has the only stock height tall spindle, so if that is required feature, then they may be your choice. You could also consider the Guldstand mod with the stock spindle.

Thanks - B

[another69]

I want to upgrade for 2 reasons:
1) to improve suspension geometry
2) to improve the strength of the stock spindle, which gets alot of wear & tear after 40 years, especially when abused.
I'm trying to avoid going with the c6 stuff because I already have alot invested in the current setup, and I'm happy with it except for the spindle- it's the only part that's not upgraded, and I'd really hate to see it fail!

I like the way way L&H tested their product, and it looks like they are the only game in town for stock height/ tall.(finally) Still, I wish they were steel. I notice the snap rings- what is their purpose?

[L & H Kustoms]

I want to upgrade for 2 reasons:
1) to improve suspension geometry
2) to improve the strength of the stock spindle, which gets alot of wear & tear after 40 years, especially when abused.
I'm trying to avoid going with the c6 stuff because I already have alot invested in the current setup, and I'm happy with it except for the spindle- it's the only part that's not upgraded, and I'd really hate to see it fail!

I like the way way L&H tested their product, and it looks like they are the only game in town for stock height/ tall.(finally) Still, I wish they were steel. I notice the snap rings- what is their purpose?

Whew! I missed out on some of the fun today! lol

Well we are the only game in town that offers a tall non drop spindle although since we've done it I am sure there a copies soon too follow within the next year or two. I understand that you would prefer they were steel but I assure you that they are stronger than the stock spindle. Yes aluminum does have a fatigue life but our spindle have cyclic fatigue life of over a million cycles which is way more than any of us put on our cars. We do recommend regular visual inspections and yearly dye penetrant inspections annually to check for problems but I recommend that everyone should do that with their spindles whether it be ours, afx, or any steel spindle. It's due dilligence on your part to check your vehicle for any problems. I always do routine checks on all of my vehicles regularly to check for any wear all the suspension components.

Also the snap rings on the bj inserts are to prevent the insert from backing out under heavy loads. The snap ring on the spindle pin (which has 50k lbs of shear strength) is just an extra safety precaution to aid in ensuring the spindle pin stays nice and tight if you were to slide into a curb or sorts sideways. And just to note that the spindle pin is installed from the backside as a positive lock which aids in preventing the spindle pin and the wheel leaving the knuckle in an accident and also some of the reasoning our spindle pin is made from 4130 Chromoly steel. it takes 39k lbs of force to push the spindle pin out of the knuckle with no snap ring once it is installed. The snap ring adds an additional 50k lbs of shear strength to keep this from happening. We have done our homework and testing to provide the highest quality parts


I'm trying to avoid going with the c6 stuff because I already have alot invested in the current setup
This is exactly why I designed our Pro Billet™ spindles in the manner that we did as they give the benefits of improved geometry and will allow you to still use your existing setup and prevent you from having to replace your existing brakes and such.

[L & H Kustoms]

As L&H's press fit design appears to be unique in the industry......
John I was wondering when you were gonna join in on the fun. Yes our "interference" fit is unique in the industry but that is usually how new products brought to market and how you obtain patents not by making the same products everyone else does.


The Corvette upright features a unit bearing bolted to the upright. The bolted unit bearing distributes the load over a much greater area than the pressed in pin. It should be noted the original spindle is forged from a single piece of 1046 steel.

Whereas a pressed in spindle induces significant hoop stress to the aluminum upright, bolting a unit bearing to the spindle distributes the relatively lower compressive bolted joint stresses over a much greater area. John your statement is correct and was accounted for in our design criteria and FEA and destructive testing.


As L&H has previously stated, it's parts will fail from fatigue before the OEM forged steel spindle, thus regular inspections are required which will be complicated by the need to remove the pressed in spindle and inserts but would be simpler on the Corvette part if such inspection is needed.

I really enjoy when you misconstrue my statements. To correct you it was Greg Fast (Twentyover) that explained to YOU about the differences of fatigue life of aluminum vs. steel as your statements about fatigue were off base and incorrect . I did state that you should perform regular visual inspections of the spindles as well as all of your suspension components and yearly dye penetrant inspections to check for cracks and wear which all of us should do no matter what material the spindle is. Never did I state that you need to remove the spindle pin to do so. and hope you have a really strong press if you do decide to do so. Our proprietary assembly of the spindle is an "interference fit" but no press is used during assembly...... and just a little more tid bit of info. The only forged part on c5/c6 is the upper control arm. the knuckle and lower control arm are pressure cast A356 Thanks Tyler for pointing this out earlier.

[L & H Kustoms]

This seems like a pretty broad and all encompassing statement without a lot of data to back it up. I don't doubt that there are tall/lowering spindles that don't properly address the geometry issues with the A/F-body front suspension, as you state yours does.

I find it very hard to believe that some of the companies you list would put a product out that did not address the geometry issues.

The statement where you say that dropping the ride height is an improper way to lower a car is a self contradicting statement. How else would lower a vehicle, other than to drop the ride height. I understand that you meant lowering the vehicle via raising the pin height on the spindle is the incorrect way to lower a vehicle, but that is again a blanket statement that doesn't take into account the other changes that occur with the geometry due to the taller spindle and increase caster (due to control arm modifications). If a desirable geometry can be achieved by a tall spindle, that also has a pin height change, keeping in mind the roll center height, migration etc., I don't see why that has to be considered the "wrong way".

Sorry for the semi-rant. I just don't like blanket negative statements from one manufacturer toward other manufacturers. I much prefer that the data be presented for your product and let the consumer (which is in the case of this community, is a fairly educated consumer) make their own decision. I do know that at this specific time the tall spindles from DSE are not being marketed toward F-body (only A-body)for control arm interference reasons. I don't know about the others, but obviously ATS spindles will work are applicable to the F-body.

To the original poster's question, LH Kustoms has the only stock height tall spindle, so if that is required feature, then they may be your choice. You could also consider the Guldstand mod with the stock spindle.

Thanks - B

Brandon the statement was in regards to drop spindles vs. lowering a car with high performance lowering springs. The tall spindle obviously improves the geometry, rch, camber gain but to really get the best handling in addition to the "tall" spindle it is best to lower the car via high performance lowering springs to bring the lower control arm level with the ground and as I stated the 2" drop spindle only provides a static drop. using drop spindles IMO is the improper way to lower your car. "tall" spindle aside drop spindles only lower for looks and do nothing for improving handling/geometry and that is what I was stating not bashing any other mfg

The DSE spindle have the bumpsteer improvement for A bodies built into their spindles which you have to move the steering arm in the opposite direction than the F body to improve the bumpsteer.

[JohnUlaszek]

Yes our "interference" fit is unique in the industry but that is usually how new products brought to market and how you obtain patents not by making the same products everyone else does.

So we can agree your design is unique, and that nobody does it like L&H – I wonder why that is.

Given your product is unconventional, it’s reliance on an interference fit appears unprecedented, and this appears to be L&H’s first suspension product, I would expect overwhelming proof from L&H that this is a good product – thus far I am underwhelmed.



John your statement is correct and was accounted for in our design criteria and FEA and destructive testing.

I did see your pictures where you smashed a part in a press, but as I stated, and Tyler eluded to, unless your test accounts for the degrees of freedom provided by the balljoints, you have artificially constrained the part and your numbers have no relevance to an as-installed condition. As I asked before, what load case do the pictures represent?



I really enjoy when you misconstrue my statements. To correct you it was Greg Fast (Twentyover) that explained to YOU about the differences of fatigue life of aluminum vs. steel as your statements about fatigue were off base and incorrect . .

My statements were “off base and incorrect”? Really? I do recall you stating that I wasn’t an engineer, so maybe your memory deceives you on this issue also. Please quote the statements and explain your point.

Did I misunderstand? Are you saying your part has a fatigue life that meets or exceeds the OEM? Because if it doesn’t, I wouldn’t want to go around talking about how your parts are “ultrastrong”.



I did state that you should perform regular visual inspections of the spindles as well as all of your suspension components and yearly dye penetrant inspections to check for cracks and wear which all of us should do no matter what material the spindle is. Never did I state that you need to remove the spindle pin to do so. and hope you have a really strong press if you do decide to do so. Our proprietary assembly of the spindle is an "interference fit" but no press is used during assembly.

Given fatigue failure is a real possibility, wouldn’t you want to know what is going on in the highly stressed interference fit of the spindle to the upright? Wouldn't you want to be able to "visually" and or dye penetrant inspect this interface?


Yes aluminum does have a fatigue life but our spindle have cyclic fatigue life of over a million cycles which is way more than any of us put on our cars.

Given fatigue failures typically happen without warning, how is someone to know when the spindle is nearing the end of it's life?
Your "yearly" inspection criteria is a a useless interval; consider a guy that puts a set on his daily driver in a region that is heavily salted in the winter -- is his inspection interval the same as the guy who's car sits in the garage all year?

Have you done salt spray testing in conjunction with actual physical fatigue to failure testing, or are these parts not suitable for a car that is driven year round?

Your design is fundamentally different than the Corvette and ATS parts, and as such, their design does nothing to validate yours.