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Hotchkis
10-20-2009, 08:40 AM
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HOTCHKIS 1st Gen CAMARO HANDLE BARS:
NASCAR CHASSIS TECHNOLOGY FOR YOUR F-BODY<o:p></o:p>



<o:p> </o:p>



[I]New [I]Brace for 1967-69 F-Bodies Eliminates Flex, Improves Handling & Control<o:p></o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>


Prevents changes in geometry, alignment, and tire contact patch<o:p></o:p>
Rigidly connects upper control arms to the cowl and firewall <o:p></o:p>
Bolt-on installation w/ included hardware <o:p></o:p>
CAD designed for superior fit and finish, designed and manufactured in the USA



Take a long look at a modern NASCAR cup car, a 1960s F1 car or a 3,000 year old Egyptian pyramid and you'll notice one similarity: lots of triangles. The triangle is the strongest shape in nature, so when a group of hardcore autocross racers asked Hotchkis to come up with a way to eliminate subframe flex in their First Gen Camaros, they looked to the past to define the future. The result: Hotchkis Chassis Max Handle Bars, the first tubular front suspension brace that triangulates the upper control arm pickup points to each other and the firewall for incredible rigidity, consistent driver control and handling. <o:p></o:p>
First generation Camaros and Firebirds use a bolt-on style subframe that can twist and flex during hard cornering, altering suspension alignment and altering the tire contact patch, creating unpredictable handling at the limit. This problem is amplified in pro-touring style cars with sticky modern tires and high-power engines. To eliminate flex, Hotchkis to developed the Handle Bar system to tie the upper control arms to each other and then triangulate them to the firewall for maximum subframe strength and rigidity. The result is more consistent response, increased handling, and improved driver control that makes the most of any high performance suspension.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
<o:p></o:p>
Handle Bars are CAD designed and built out of high-strength steel tubing, CNC bent brackets and laser cut gussets for easy installation and a perfect fit. All necessary hardware is included, and Handle Bars are available with a durable gloss anthracite powdercoat finish or in raw steel for those that wish to color-match their engine bay.


<o:p></o:p>
About Hotchkis Performance<o:p></o:p>
Founded by former professional racecar drivers and national champions, Hotchkis Performance was one of the first to design and track test performance suspension for muscle cars. Nearly two decades later, Hotchkis remains dedicated to high-quality, track-tested, suspension that is Made in the USA with domestic materials. Dare to Compare: Hotchkis offers complete bolt-on systems that are designed in-house and rigorously track tested for maximum performance, strength and value. Each system is tuned for high performance handling, a sporty yet comfortable ride and improved traction on the street and track. Don't settle for pieced-together systems or foreign sourced parts. The Hotchkis Philosophy is simple: Buy it once, bolt it on, and have fun! To preview the entire line of Hotchkis Sport Suspension parts and components, please visit www.Hotchkis.net (http://www.hotchkis.net/), email [email protected], or contact [I]Hotchkis Performance, 12035 Burke Street Suite 13, Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670, 877-4-NOROLL. <o:p></o:p>

installation video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBwFFRQazeU)

sunkistcamaro
10-20-2009, 08:48 AM
Funny I just posted a question about these last night.
https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61371
Will this work with a LS1 installed in a 69 Camaro?
thanks for the info.

John Wright
10-20-2009, 09:45 AM
Now...build one for the front and rear of an early 2gen camaro:smoke:

1969CamaroRS
10-20-2009, 10:20 AM
Any issues with fitment with aftermarket control arms (Global West etc)?

jknight16
10-20-2009, 10:31 AM
So it mounts between the Control arm mount and the arm itself. So the upper control arm will be moved inward by the width of the mounting plate material. Price looks to be around $550 from the website.

68Formula
10-20-2009, 10:36 AM
Will it fit Pontiacs (with Pontiac engines, of course?) How about if if the Guldstrand was done?

I take it it fits flat to the inside side of the brackets (where I have a ton of shims now)? How thick is that bracket? It would be nice to stiffen and at the same time possibly take out one of the shims that I have in now to get static negative camber.

mpozzi
10-20-2009, 10:47 AM
Those are NICE!!! Second the request for our second gens and if you need something that will hold still long enough, my car will donate some time for the mock up.

Cheers,
Mary Pozzi

John Wright
10-20-2009, 11:19 AM
:secret: Mary, have you or Dave been kicking around that idea of the rear shock tower style brace for our cars...?
I have to admit, I have been lazy.:sleeping:

neki67
10-20-2009, 11:51 AM
Saw this already some time ago and asked the same question as 68Formula:
will these fit when the Guldstrand mod has been done?

Oh, and like Bill; how about when you have an LS engine in?

Mr.VENGEANCE
10-20-2009, 12:01 PM
niiiice!!

looks like something new for Stormy on the list..

tumper93
10-20-2009, 12:08 PM
The upper control arm bolt is a press fit type bolt which I spotted on the back of mine at the subframe because of turning. Wonder if these can be installed on the outside of the control arm instead of inbetween?

Damn True
10-20-2009, 12:10 PM
Very cool guys! X2 on the questions above regarding UCA offset if any.

Adding one: Can we see a close up of the bar/firewall interface? Does the mount wrap from the vertical to the horizontal plane?

Roadrage David
10-20-2009, 12:28 PM
I also would like to see a 2 ore 3 bold triangular fiks point on the firewal!!!... that one bold thusend cut it for me... looks to weak of a atachment point nekst to the bar.. as for the rest of the disign i like it and would defenatly buy it.

jknight16
10-20-2009, 03:08 PM
The website says the bars have another set of holes to use when the G-mod has been done, so I think they'll work in those cases.

I would think you could cut and weld a 90 degree bracket on the firewall mount that would wrap to the horizonal plane of the firewall like True mentioned if you were worried about strength at that point. Or like David mentioned, could use a header collector-style bracket that will allow the use of more than one bolt. I'm thinking that Hotchkis probably decided not to go that way because much of their market are not hardcore PT guys and still require these improvements to be completely bolt in, as they won't drill additional holes in the firewall like we will.

All in all a great addition for all first gens and a good starting point for the hardcore guys.

John Wright
10-20-2009, 05:35 PM
Looks like it uses the fender bolt like the Herb Adams bars did...must have been a good attachment point for Herb to use that bolt.

Dave's G-braces also use that same bolt.

Roadrage David
10-20-2009, 07:55 PM
John im aware of that, but it looks to me that the initional stifness should be the main pipe conected on the firewal in sutch a way that there is no chanse of flexebilety this is the whole idea around this consept!!! to get out the flex, wel ataching it NECKST to the bar that should not be able to move at all, is usless you ""might"" help stifen it up a bit side ways but howabout up and douwn!!, no matter how hard you twist that bold in that lip on the fire wall it stil not atatch that bar the way it should be to get the full potentional the system CAN diliver when haveing 3 lips and 3 bolds bolted to the firewall.

CliffS
10-21-2009, 01:34 AM
any weight# available?

Hotchkis
10-21-2009, 04:57 PM
Wow, you guys are on top of this!

I"ll try to answer everyone, feel free to post, pm, or call us if I miss your question:

1. Will this work with a LS1 installed in a 69 Camaro? - YES
2. build one for the front and rear of an early 2gen camaro - We're on it:
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Check them out here (http://www.hotchkis.net/197081_camaro_chassis_max_handle_bars.html)

3. Rear flex concerns can be addressed with our 1968-1969 Camaro, Firebird Rear Shock Tower Brace
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

4. Any issues with fitment with aftermarket control arms? - No issues with any of the major aftermarket arms, they were specifically tested and trial fit on multiple aftermarket arms as well as stock arms. They work great on all.

5. Pontiacs - We've had one test fit with no problems, but we'd like to do a little more research.

Damn True
10-21-2009, 05:33 PM
Can we see a close up of the bar/firewall interface on the 1st-Gen unit? Does the mount wrap from the vertical to the horizontal plane?

John McIntire
10-21-2009, 06:35 PM
does this clear all engines? SBC, BBC, LSX, even the I6?

carguy502
10-21-2009, 07:09 PM
Anything in the works for 68-72 nova? Please say yes...

classiccardude69
10-21-2009, 07:49 PM
:attn:You can do some research with my firebird! Just send me some free parts!

68Formula
10-22-2009, 04:35 AM
Me, too. Mine has the lowered control arm mounts, but I still have the original holes, so I can try both positions.

1968CamaroSS_Sam
10-22-2009, 06:45 AM
Maybe I missed it. But, I was wondering what the cost of this will be? If unknown. How about a ballpark guess.

6'9"Witha69
10-22-2009, 07:49 AM
Maybe I missed it. But, I was wondering what the cost of this will be? If unknown. How about a ballpark guess.
From their website: $550.95

Roadrage David
10-22-2009, 08:36 AM
I also want to ad another thing i forgot , sins its not advertised as a safty cage, and just there as a piece of suspention upgrade why not make it out of aluminium????. weight is indeed a issue.
Al these afthermarked parts are great but thusend make out cars lighter!!! some weight saveings should be considerd as wel. i have all the goodies on my car and tryd to save weight with fibre glass spoliers frond and rear bumber hood ecetera , yet my car stil weighs the same when leaving the factory 3695 lbs with halve atank of gas....

1969CamaroRS
10-22-2009, 10:18 AM
Can we see a close up of the bar/firewall interface on the 1st-Gen unit?

x2

I too am wondering what kind of pressure this kit would put on the firewall. Are there reinforcement plates that bolt on? I'd be worried we would see the firewall flex or be bent under hard-cornering.

Thanks for answering all the questions, looking like a great kit especially for those that don't want to go the cage route but would like to stick with sub-frame connectors and a kit like this.

jfaria78
10-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Since I don't have a lot to do, I am going to drive over to Hotchkis and take some snaps for the forum. I will have them posted later today. I am interested as well and would like to see the cleareance between the crossbar and the intake manifold or at least get a measurement. I have a BB so cleareance is an issue with me. I also spoke to Drew this morning, he said that DSE uca & lca with the guldstrand mod (standard with the coil over kit) will work! I will post what I see later...

James

sunkistcamaro
10-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Great idea!

jfaria78
10-22-2009, 07:32 PM
Alright... I went to Hotchkis and spoke with Drew.

From my impression the the product is of very good quality. From the cross brace to the firewall it is approximately 20". From the cross brace to the lower sub-frame cross member it is 20.5"

It bolts in without drilling anyholes in the firewall or subframe. The upper bars connect to the firewall using the hood latch bolt hole on the firewall, from memory that is a 3/8-16 bolt. That bar connects to the upper control arm bolts on the inside of the control arm cross-shaft. This would add negative camber. How much I do not know, I don't do alignments on a regular basis but adding a 1/4" of material between the cross-shaft and the mount would be a few degree's at least.

The guldstrand mod will not be a problem as there is a hole pre-placed for you to drill out. I believe those are 1/2 bolts so you will need at least 33/64 drill bit. You can use a 1/2 drill bit but it may be a little tight and no room for error.

I took a few pictures of the rear brace and it seems like a simple bolt in and looks like it would take about 5 minutes to put in.

I would like to know how much negative camber that would add?


James

jfaria78
10-22-2009, 07:33 PM
and a few more pic's

James

Mark Antrim
10-23-2009, 03:37 AM
Will this work with fuel injection like, tpi, Holley's stealth ram or Edelbrock's pro-flow?

John Wright
10-23-2009, 03:59 AM
2. build one for the front and rear of an early 2gen camaro - We're on it:


Check them out here (http://www.hotchkis.net/197081_camaro_chassis_max_handle_bars.html)

3. Rear flex concerns can be addressed with our 1968-1969 Camaro, Firebird Rear Shock Tower Brace


Sweet!...looking at the rear shock brace now.

68Formula
10-23-2009, 06:14 AM
My brackets are still in the stock location, and to get abut 1° I have a hair less than 1/2" in shims in the front, and just a hair more than 1/2" at the rear bolt. It would take some trig to figure out how much it would add, but for me the important thing is, I can remove 1/4" of shims to keep my existing alignment.

Hotchkis
10-23-2009, 04:09 PM
Jafaria78 - Thanks for coming down! It's great to see so much interest. It definitely encourages us to continue designing handle bars for later cars. Keep your feedback coming!

Mark - There should be no problem with aftermarket fuel injection

1969camarors - The rear mounting point for the bar is the stock fender attachment point at the firewall. This is a reinforced area, and the inner fenders themselves also add rigidity.

LS1 Camaro owners, if any of you are considering adding handle bars to your car, and are local to the Sante Fe Springs area, we can offer one person a discount and free installation so that we can take some good photos of the fitment.

PM me for more information.

sunkistcamaro
10-23-2009, 06:28 PM
I wish I lived closer...
I cant wait to see the pictures. Who is going?

Roadrage David
10-24-2009, 07:26 AM
Jafaria78 - Thanks for coming down! It's great to see so much interest. It definitely encourages us to continue designing handle bars for later cars. Keep your feedback coming!

Mark - There should be no problem with aftermarket fuel injection

1969camarors - The rear mounting point for the bar is the stock fender attachment point at the firewall. This is a reinforced area, and the inner fenders themselves also add rigidity.

LS1 Camaro owners, if any of you are considering adding handle bars to your car, and are local to the Sante Fe Springs area, we can offer one person a discount and free installation so that we can take some good photos of the fitment.

PM me for more information.

Are you guys going to put 2 more lips on it for the firewal conection!!!?????..... so that it hase a 3 way ficks point to the firewall

redfire69
10-25-2009, 08:22 AM
Will the second gens fit Firebird/Trans Am?

sik68
10-25-2009, 07:55 PM
Well, I guess my New Year's resolution will be to stiffen up my car...

amsterdam
10-26-2009, 12:06 PM
Are these not availeble in powder coated gloss black just like the other parts from you guy's.

Erik

TheMeat
10-31-2009, 04:47 PM
Will these fit the 3rd gen Novas? Or are there some in the works?

DarkoNova
10-31-2009, 08:57 PM
I'm assuming these will fit 3rd gen Novas since they bolt to the upper control arms and the firewall.

Could be wrong, though.

Matt

67BlackBird
12-25-2009, 02:31 PM
Gents, I've got a 67 Firebird convertible, with noticeable cowl shake. I know these are kind of designed to keep the subframe from flexing- but would it work backwards? Do you think these bars would help get rid of the cowl shake??

LeighP
12-26-2009, 08:56 AM
Are the 4 cocktail shakers fitted to your car? The 1st gen convertibles were originally noted for their cowl shake by GM test engineers and were fitted with the vibration dampers in each corner....if they aren't present, then that could be an explanation of your problem.

68Formula
12-26-2009, 09:53 PM
Gents, I've got a 67 Firebird convertible, with noticeable cowl shake. I know these are kind of designed to keep the subframe from flexing- but would it work backwards? Do you think these bars would help get rid of the cowl shake??

I think subframe connectors would be better to start with. Then do the bars.

Hotchkis
12-28-2009, 03:15 PM
We have Nova specific handle bars in the design shop right now. They should be ready in early 2010.

As for wiggling 67 Firebird convertibles, yes the handle bars will help, but for a convertible, we recommend the convertible specific Hotchkis Chassis Max
(http://www.hotchkis.net/6769_camarofirebird_convertible_chassis_max_kit.ht ml)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

The Chassis Max System (http://www.hotchkis.net/6769_camarofirebird_convertible_chassis_max_kit.ht ml) for 1967-69 F-Body Convertibles strengthens the chassis by adding structural integrity that drastically improves handling. Chassis Max exclusive cross brace and subframe connectors attach easily to the leaf spring pickup points, making your F-body rock solid. We designed the system to work with up to 3-inch diameter dual exhaust. The superior multi-piece design contours around the undercarriage, maintaining ground clearance and a clean look. All three components in the Chassis Max System are CAD designed and manufactured in the USA using precision CNC machines. A durable gloss black powdercoat finish means the parts won't chip or crack, and all necessary polyurethane subframe mount bushings and hardware is included.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Give us a call if you'd like to learn more about the Chassis Max, or get our engineers to work faster on the Nova parts.

avgasman
12-30-2009, 08:34 AM
The crossbar hits the top of the intake on my LS3. I have ATS engine plates which should have set the engine quite low in the engine bay. Fortunately Hotchkis is working on a modified crossbar but they need a donor car for testing.

Anyone game?

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=12035+Burke+Street+Suite+13+%0D%0A+%0D%0ASa nta+Fe+Springs,+Ca+90670+&sourceid=ie8-activity&hl=en

ss dave
12-30-2009, 10:41 AM
Ok Since this is a current post I post it here.
I have a 69 vert
Welded Comp Eng subframe connectors cut into and welded into the frame brace.
Solid body bushings
Hotchkiss X brace
Custom 600# springs
Varishock DA all around
ATS spindles, SKF hubs
G-link
Handles like on rails, but I wish to lose the corner boat anchors (shakers)
I purchased the front and rear handle bars and in the process of installation.
Once fitted and p coated the shakers come out and I will post results.
I am adding a FAST 102 intake but even with the stock LS7 intake we will have to modify the cross bar.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2009/09/P1010329-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/10/P1200185-1.jpg

67BlackBird
01-05-2010, 07:12 PM
Wow, nice Camaro- my car is set up like yours with the subframe connectors (cut and welded to the floor), the Hotchkis X-brace, and I do have all the cocktail shakers. I'm not sure why it's "floppy", but I will watch this to see what the bars do for you.
Thanks for the comments!

Jeffrotech
01-19-2010, 06:58 AM
...

ProTour69Bird
08-20-2010, 11:41 PM
anymore fitment conclusions for firebirds? will they work.

68Formula
08-21-2010, 09:46 AM
If Hotchkis wants to send me a set, I'll I volunteer to check the fit. LOL!

ss dave
09-18-2010, 01:19 PM
Sorry I haven't posted sooner. Been out enjoying the vert in good weather.
We had to modify the bars to fit the Fast LSX manifold.
We extended the cross bar attachments so that the cross bar sits higher.
It does stiffen up the front and allowed me to remove the cocktail shakers.
I also put the Hotchkis bar in the rear to stiffen and remove the shakers.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/P10102291-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/P10102301-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/P1010208-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/P1010209-1.jpg

ss dave
09-18-2010, 01:27 PM
Another view
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/P10102281-1.jpg

LeighP
09-18-2010, 08:29 PM
Very nice car.

1969CamaroRS
09-18-2010, 10:38 PM
We had to modify the bars to fit the Fast LSX manifold.
We extended the cross bar attachments so that the cross bar sits higher.

How exactly did you extend the cross bar? Any other mods?

Thanks for the pics. Thinking of getting one too, not sure if it would clear my heater hoses and Hydroboost with some custom bracketry .

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/09/th_EngineInstall090-1.jpg (http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l346/Marroweter/Engine/Engine%20Install/EngineInstall090.jpg)

ss dave
09-19-2010, 04:00 AM
It cleared my Hydroboost without problems.
It was the height of the Fast LSX manifold that caused problems.
The cross bar needed to be taller or higher.
At the side brackets there is a tab where the cross bar attaches.
We cut it and then welded more material to extend it up and further outward, clearing the manifold.
The rear bar fit as advertised but in the vert we had to modify the rear panel to make it fit.

Procharmo
09-29-2010, 01:58 PM
Looks like it uses the fender bolt like the Herb Adams bars did...must have been a good attachment point for Herb to use that bolt.

Dave's G-braces also use that same bolt.
I have installed these Max Handle Bars on my 2nd Gen prior to installing the SFC's. Easy install, and stiffens the front frame enough that there is no engine rock on revving in idle, although it could be due to the new motor being more balanced... Out on the road the difference was night and day........

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Just remember if you have a Glasstek hood like mine you will have to cut two slots in the hood bracing where the bars meet the cowl....I suspect they clear stock hoods......

They have supplied reinforcing plates where the bars bolt to the cowl.. Great product!!!!!

overZealous1
09-29-2010, 09:29 PM
I have installed these Max Handle Bars on my 2nd Gen prior to installing the SFC's. Easy install, and stiffens the front frame enough that there is no engine rock on revving in idle, although it could be due to the new motor being more balanced... Out on the road the difference was night and day........

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Just remember if you have a Glasstek hood like mine you will have to cut two slots in the hood bracing where the bars meet the cowl....I suspect they clear stock hoods......

They have supplied reinforcing plates where the bars bolt to the cowl.. Great product!!!!!

pretty wild set up on the engine there. looks great! just curious on the 4 godzilla bov's on the single blow through carb?

6'9"Witha69
09-30-2010, 10:04 AM
pretty wild set up on the engine there. looks great! just curious on the 4 godzilla bov's on the single blow through carb?
Check his build thread. Monster front mounted Superchargers!

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67091

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69247

Rogue 67
03-19-2012, 05:36 PM
How much??