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View Full Version : FINALLY started the 454 and i think the Ultradyne cam went flat!



yody
03-06-2005, 07:29 PM
Well after 2 years, my car is finally to the point of starting the motor. I made sure evertying was functional before actually starting it up. The front clip still needs to go on, and the brakes aren't finished yet but i started it today. Here is the scenerio, i have a 468 with an ultradyne 288/296 solid flat tappet with comp cams solid lifters. I pulled the inner valve springs out, ran a quart of GM EOS, and used a ton of cranes grey paste cam break in lube. THe first time i tried to start it i turned the electric pump on and the carb completely flooded and had a geyser coming out of the vent tube. It was a sticky needle and seat. Then it cranked and didn't fire, then i HATED to do this, but i cranked and cranked I know how to set a motor up and have done it a lot of times before, but this was a complete car build. Then after some cranking i came back today and found out i had some issues with the MSD system:hammer:. I fixed the issues, and realized the oile smelled like gas, so i guess it flooded before and the oil mixed with the gas. SO i dumped the oil and filled it back up and put some more EOS in it, but i had already primed the motor with the gas in the oil and crnaked it some. So i fixed the oil and msd and had to crank more and more :hand: . I can't believe i had to crank this motor so much, i truly expected it to fire right away..... So finally i get it running, and it runs like a beast!....until i notice the passenger side valvce cover is ticking real loud. So i shut it down and check it out and one of the poly locks is super loose!!!:banghead: SO i tighten it back up to spec hoping it was just a mishap. THen i go ahead and break the cam in some more. Well it still kinda ticks but is better, then i can't really say but i noticed the ticking again on teh same passenger side. Nothing is extremley loose but a few rocker arms have way too much slack in them. so i put a dial indicator on 2 of them and adjust it to zero lash and only get about 550 lift and 520 lift, and i am supposed to have 612 and 630. So i assume i have a super flat cam? possilby from the cranking and the gas in the oil. Tomorrow i will have to cut open the filter and check it out,, but i think my chances are grim. I took all of the precautions but i might be another failure. Its going to be a PITA to take it all apart, as everything is SUPER detailed and put togehter very nicely. Any suggestions, tips or help? thanks!
this is a awful feeling, but maybe i will have to go solid roller now?

gmachinz
03-06-2005, 07:38 PM
You didn't set all your valves initially at zero lash did you? If you are tedious about keeping a clean engine compartment, why did you opt for a solid flat tappet cam? Periodic adjustments mean getting your detailed engine more dirty than would be needed if you built a solid roller instead-then again, those are harsh on valvesprings.....yeah, I'd go with a hydraulic roller next time IMO. -Jabin

Matt@RFR
03-06-2005, 07:47 PM
If you forsee building many more engines, build yourself a "run-in stand" and be done with the mess you're about to have to deal with. It's so much easier to break a cam in, check for leaks, do the first oil change, and, yeah, put new cams in when you have it on a stand outside of the car.

Either that or a dyno...I wouldn't do it any other way.

yody
03-06-2005, 07:49 PM
hydro rollers in a bbc suck. big time valve float. also a solid roller needs periodic valve adjustment just the same. And while i am at it, you got it wrong, solid rollers are hard on lifters. you need stiffer springs to control the valvetrain, so actually the spirngs are hard on the cam/lifter. And no i didn't set me lash at zero........

yody
03-06-2005, 07:50 PM
p.s. no leaks!! I was really ready for this thing to fire at the tip of the key. once it ran, everything was 100% perfect....except for the cam thingy

zbugger
03-06-2005, 08:13 PM
How many lobes did you check? Also, make sure your exhaust isn't leaking too. That's been known to throw some people off.

yody
03-06-2005, 08:36 PM
hmm, how does an exhaust leak create loose rocker arms? oh, wait you mean the noise? it was for sure a ridiculously loose rocker arm the first time. i checked 2 lobes

OHCbird
03-06-2005, 10:44 PM
Yody- where & at what engine speed did you measure the 550 and 520? Going from 612 and 630 to 550 and 520 is quite a chunk to lose on a a break-in run. It sounds like you've still got extra lash set in, which is 'stealing' your lift #s.

yody
03-06-2005, 10:56 PM
it wasnt' running? i am a little confused by your question, maybe i didn't explain correctly. I put a dial indicator on the valve spring retainer and turned the motor over, and watched how much lift i had. I still need to double check everything but i am pretty sure i am adjusting it correctly. I was curious to see if i am losing way too much lift. I think i should check the rocker studs too!

ProdigyCustoms
03-07-2005, 04:19 AM
How long was the motor assembled before you fired it? Was it 2 years? If so, prelubes that sit for long periods can turn into abrasives as they dry out. I doubt your gas filed oil hurt anything since you changed the oil before running it. I doubt the gas fililed oil was able to wash the cam lobes off from just priming and turning the motor.
Personally, I would run through the valves again, do your measurment again, run it and see if it changes again. You really have nothing to loose as the filter would be catching anything before it got to the crank anyway. I have lost a couple cams over the years, even rollers that came apart, and never had other damage from stuff running through.
I would change the oil, adjust the valves, measure, and triple check lash at the suspected problem, and run it. If it is eating a lobe, it will continue to eat until it is gone. Or, pull the motor and start over.

EFI69Cam
03-07-2005, 09:23 AM
hydro rollers in a bbc suck. big time valve float. also a solid roller needs periodic valve adjustment just the same. And while i am at it, you got it wrong, solid rollers are hard on lifters. you need stiffer springs to control the valvetrain, so actually the spirngs are hard on the cam/lifter. And no i didn't set me lash at zero........


How to BBC hyraulic rollers cause float anymore than SBC? They are basically the same lifter. There might be a bit more weight with the longer cross bar, but the solids have that too.

yody
03-07-2005, 10:09 AM
good point about the lifter, but with a roller they are not the same. They are just heavier. I have never ran run so i can't telly out he specifics on it, but it is just a plain fact. You "might" get 6000 rpm out of a well put together valve train with a hydro in a BBC. I definetly and looking for horsepower not longetivy and smootheness. I think i will just stab another solid flat tappet if it is flat. I was thinking along the same thing as prodigy, and that was my plan for the day, unless i pull the filter and there are chunks of metal, or something really obvious.

EFI69Cam
03-07-2005, 11:03 AM
good point about the lifter, but with a roller they are not the same. They are just heavier. I have never ran run so i can't telly out he specifics on it, but it is just a plain fact. You "might" get 6000 rpm out of a well put together valve train with a hydro in a BBC. I definetly and looking for horsepower not longetivy and smootheness. I think i will just stab another solid flat tappet if it is flat. I was thinking along the same thing as prodigy, and that was my plan for the day, unless i pull the filter and there are chunks of metal, or something really obvious.


I run an Isky Hyro roller, 284/294 total 234/244 at 50, 58xI 600E. I've run it to 6400 , no float with the isky 8005 springs. Don't know about longevity.
One of the nice thing about big blocks is that they have enough low end with big cams that you don't have to spool them up. If you are not concerned about knock sensors, the solid roller is the way to go though. Mine is EFI, and I wanted the KS.

yody
03-07-2005, 12:39 PM
dumped the oil today [Frown] ...... the oil out of the pan looked okay, kinda dirty though, but the magnetic drain plug on the moroso pan didnt look too bad, once i wiped it with a rag you could see some grey on the rag, but the magent wasn't fuzzy or anything. Then when i dumped the oil filter !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the oil that came out of the filter looked like silver fudge, looked like silver nail polish or something. So the cam is DEFINETLY wiped out. I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally don't want to pull the motor, if i have to i will probably give up on the car for a few months, and will forget about summer. The oil coming out of the pan for sure didn't look nearly as bad as the oil in the filter(K+N). Please lie to me and tell me to flush the motor out and stab a new cam in it and run it! I am running the clevite race bearings, i think they are the H series? so thery aren't as forgiving. How many people had a cam go flat(really flat) and still ran the motor with a new cam? how many people pulled the motor and the bearings looked okay? the motor was probably only ran for no more than 15 minutes.

WELTERRACER
03-07-2005, 01:52 PM
Hell id throw a new cam in it... I had a friend to flattened an cam a long time ago with a SBC and it smoked the oilpump and the bearings, but he drove the car for 5 miles before the cam totally went...

as long as you still had good oil pressure the filter should have cought all the shavings.. THEREFORE id just throw the new cam in.... Granted you will still have to pull the radiator, intake etc... but easier than the whole engine..


Then again you might have caused alot of damage to the oil pump.. and it might be better to pull the pan and check the oil pump..... I sure wouldnt worry about the bearings thought, the little time you had it running.. under no load..

Zefhix
03-07-2005, 02:44 PM
I would say that if your pan looked okay, than that's a direct reflection of the oil that was running through the motor so your okay on your bearings as the oil filter did it's job. Do you have the oil bypass plugged? Was your oil pressure right when running....where was it at? Also, all this crap about hydraulic rollers and roller cams in BBC is just that, crap. $200 will buy you a rev kit that is extrodinarily good at what it does...seriously, I've never had a problem with valve float when using these...ever. I think AFR sells them for around that price. There is a bit more weight, though, with the lifters (like you said) in a BBC but the rev kits keep it under control very nicely.
Jody, given the level of detail I've seen on your stuff I would carefully re-measure everything before getting into tearing it all apart. .520 to .630 is way to much for break in wear. The only possible way to grind down that much is by improperly adjusting your rockers. The only other possibility is that specs you were given for your cam were already with a 1.6 ratio lift and you're running 1.5s. Are you using custom length pushrods? Did you measure the lift when doing your piston to valve clearance or setting up your geometry? If so...what was it then?

If it was me, I'd pull the manifold and check lobe lift at the cam and inspect each lifter's height as well as the pushrods and check for problems there before I pull the motor.
BTW-I forgot to tell you in the other post how much I like the way your radiator piping came out. Looks great. Sorry about the engine woes.

rumblee
03-07-2005, 03:12 PM
The same thing just happened to my small block. I had one valve that just wouldnt adjust right. After I had ran it about an hour total and tried adjusting it several times I pulled off the rocker arm, pushrod, and then the lifter.......which was about 1/8" shorter than it shouldve been. So I yanked the motor, and pulled the cam. The lobe with the destroyed lifter riding on it was pretty much round. BUT the good news is that I checked the bearings and they look fine. So just flush your engine and replace the cam and you should be ok.

ProdigyCustoms
03-07-2005, 04:52 PM
The oil is filtered before it gets to the crank, your all good. I had a guy bring me a 72 LS5 that he had rebuilt and used a Crane Blueprint cam that went away pretty quick, Turns out Crane had a weak batch. Anyway, he drove it for a good while until it would not run because it was backfiring through the carb. Brought it to me to figure out what was wrong. The cam was totally flat, 100% gone on multiple cylinders. Bearings were perfect.

yody
03-07-2005, 04:52 PM
well, i took the pan off, as much as i could today and the bearings looked alright, but i decided i am going to pull the motor and trans tomorrow. take the motor all the way apart, clean everythign, get new bearings if needed, put on a road race oil pan, oil cooler, remote filter, and a new cam and put it all back in! what a pain in the butt! now i need to decide what cam to put in

yody
03-07-2005, 04:54 PM
thansk prodigy, but i looked again and even the oil in teh pan had metal in it. the oil filter seemed to be overflown with silver oil, looked like terminator 2. i figure it aint going to be hard to get the motro out now, might as well do it. i bet the bypass opened up and recycled the bad oil

Zefhix
03-07-2005, 05:59 PM
Oh, that's what I forgot to put, the crank gets the first douse of filtered oil. Thanks Prodigy....
1/8" is a crapload to be off RumbleBee. How frustrating!!! :scared:
Jody-I would definitely plug the bypass on your motor and run an oil-pressure shutoff switch. Alot of times the bypass opens when it shouldn't at high pressures.
Here's the kit I was talking about from AFR but they don't make one for BBC so the 462 I just helped with must have had another manufacturer. I'll find out if you're interested.
http://www.airflowresearch.com/pages/images/hydra2.jpg

yody
03-07-2005, 08:13 PM
thanks. BTW i am cody, not jody :) yeah i am definetly not messing with a hydro roller, if anything i will do solid roller, the motors comign out tomorrow so i will have to make some decisions

Zefhix
03-07-2005, 08:40 PM
thanks. BTW i am cody, not jody :) yeah i am definetly not messing with a hydro roller, if anything i will do solid roller, the motors comign out tomorrow so i will have to make some decisions
Oopps! Sorry Cody..I meant to write yody...not sure how I got to jody. Anyway...I'm trying hydro rollers in my 468 with a custom grind Comp cam so we'll see how it goes....good luck.

yody
03-07-2005, 08:45 PM
thanks for all the input, i just realized i sounded kinda snotty, wasn't intended!

Zefhix
03-08-2005, 12:21 AM
thanks for all the input, i just realized i sounded kinda snotty, wasn't intended!

No worries...I'm no expert by any means. BTW-if you call Canton they can build you an autocross pan for BBC. I'm actually having problems finding a company that already produces one.

Norm Peterson
03-08-2005, 05:43 AM
Out of curiosity, how much spring pressure over the nose are you running? I know I've seen recommendations to break in an engine that's been spec'd with a stiff dual spring arrangement using the outers only (since you're not going anywhere near redline in the first 30 minutes). The inners go in after your cam/lifters are broken in.

Don't forget to inspect the cam bearings.

Norm

yody
03-08-2005, 01:27 PM
yeah, the inners had already been pulled out. I am going to pull the motor, completely disassemble, clean and ressassembl. Put a solid roller isky in it
256/263, .680 lift
got to have the pistons fly cut for this cam though
no cam break in for me! hopefully the isky red zone lifters will last

yody
03-08-2005, 01:28 PM
btw milodon makes a road race pan for $350 but it has no dipstick

OHCbird
03-08-2005, 01:37 PM
BBCs have 1.7 stock , not 1.5 or 1.6.

Yody-
Good luck & be patient!

yody
03-08-2005, 02:41 PM
i pulled the intake and three lobes arent' evern lobes anymore!! so out comes the motor today.

68protouring454
03-10-2005, 11:00 AM
sorry to hear that cody, how long did motor run?? didn't see where you mentioned you ran it for 15-25 mins at 2000+? i am sure you did, i had a hydraulic cam go flat after 1200 miles, just one lobe, sucks , well let us know what you are going to go with
jake

Zefhix
03-10-2005, 11:34 AM
BBCs have 1.7 stock , not 1.5 or 1.6.

Yody-
Good luck & be patient!

Actually, I knew that! Damn my dominantly small block backround! :banghead:

yody
03-10-2005, 12:21 PM
Heres the update, turns out i somehow forgot to take out the inner valve springs on one of the heads, and consequently, the lobes that went flat were on that side of the motor! so that is why the cam went flat. I have pulled the motor and trans. The motor is completely disassembled adn the block is getting hot tanked and the crank polished. I am putting a custom ground isky solid roller cam in with iskys red zone lifters and springs
254/263 @.050 .680 lift
i might have to fly cut the pistons, but won't know until mock up. I will degree the cam check PVC clearance, reassemble the motor and put it all back in. let you guys know how it goes

paul67
03-10-2005, 12:31 PM
Just a quicky a friend put new cam in ran engine got tappet noise stripped engine found the cam paste had blocked the oil ways up and took the cam out took less than 1 hr running in time
paul67

BRIAN
03-10-2005, 01:40 PM
For the amount of money you probably have in that thing have the motor broken in and dialed in on a dyno. Probably $5-700 depending on where you are. You probably did more than that in damage just by pulling and reinstalling. Why risk it and it will also help you with REAL HP numbers. On such a detailed car it is a must. BY THE WAY IF YOU ARE USING THE MOLY PASTE TAKE IT EASY ON THAT STUFF IT CAN CLOG PASSAGES!! Good luck!!

Norm Peterson
03-10-2005, 02:45 PM
My understanding is that you only need the moly paste for breaking in flat tappet cams. IIRC it's an extreme pressure lubricant that eases sliding friction/keeps you from getting metal sliding on metal under heavy load. With a roller cam it's probably not necessary (it wasn't with my .500-ish SBC HR, and I had specifically inquired about doing it). But it wouldn't hurt a bit to put a tiny dab on each pushrod end, as that's still a metal-sliding-on-metal situation.

That said, you probably should set the lifters - and the roller ends in particular - in oil long enough to ensure that oil gets inside and coats all the needle bearings and their races. Roll the rollers to help make sure.

Sorry about the extent of the bad news.

If you haven't thrown all the bad parts out already, take a look at ALL of the lifters, and place a straightedge across the ends that ride on the cam lobes. The lifters should be ever so slightly convex (to enhance rotation and uniform wear). You'll probably find a number that are concave, and the really bad ones you won't need the straightedge to diagnose.

Look for any concave-ness that isn't generally spherical in shape. That could indicate a lifter/lifter bore that was sticking and preventing lifter rotation. If you have that condition you'll want to fix it. The roller part of the lifter and its cam lobe probably wouldn't mind it too much, but it can't be a good situation for the lifter body and might cost you a few rpm up top.

Norm

yody
03-10-2005, 03:14 PM
all of the lifters were free in the bores, and would rotate. Excelpt for the bottom of the flat ones. all of the othert lifter/lobes looked very good, especiall the ones on the side which had the inner springs removed. I am spending enough money as it is on the solid roller setup which leaves me no room for dyno. i wish though. Also no moly on roller stuff just oil

BRIAN
03-10-2005, 05:04 PM
Hey I am sorry you are having any problem as it just sucks to tear something like that apart. Built quit a few cars and anything with that detail is run first. Excessive heat, burnt headers and surrounding paint, discolored parts, Leaks that damages coatings, etc. $500 is money saved. Good luck! not trying to preach but it could cost you a lot more in the end. Look around you might find slow shop and get deal. Plus remember without it you still have to deal with tuning, jetting, adjustments, etc.

yody
03-10-2005, 10:25 PM
I hear you on that, but actually my headers were fine, nothing discolored, no leakes, everything was perfect!