Why doesn't this thing steer better?

[aray327]

I have just replaced all the suspension on my 69 camaro. New CCP upper and lower control arms, QA1 coil overs, CCP 2" drop spindles, Hotchkis 1 1/8 front sway bar, the rear got DSE 3" drop leafs, DSE poly shackles and QA1 shocks. here is the only photo of the suspension I have available.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

so my question/problem is, the steering is too light. On the highway the car will want to move at the slightest touch and needs lots of adjustment to any steering input. I got the car aligned. They were only able to get 2 degrees of caster. They told me the frame had likely settled over the years and was maybe a 1/4" out, coupled with the thick shafts on the control arms restricted them from getting any more caster.

I have been contemplating the Guldstran mod and now which i had done it before I got the alignment. I guess paying twice for an alignment will be my learning cost.

I have been reading posts, and will continue reading, but I would like some advice on how to improve the steering. I am wondering if a new steering box would help, if the Guldstran mod will help, and is there something else I should consider?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[69LT1Nova]

You didn't mention anything about what you are running for a steering box or the condition of the idler arm, inner and outer tie rod ends, etc. Please provide more information. :)

[TonyL]

yep. We need to know the state of your steering box, idler arms and tie rods. I had a similar "darty" problem and a little toe-out fixed it.

[Chad-1stGen]

If it feels really "light" it sounds like you are maybe running a 3rd gen IROC box?

That is a common complaint for that box is that it doesn't require enough effort.

[aray327]

the steering box, idler arms and and tie rods are all original. There is no play in the steering box. with the engine off turning the wheel side to side suggests the box is pretty tight, no slop. I was surprised when i purchased the car at the ratio, I think it is only 2 1/2 turns or so lock to lock. Since the car is not a z/28 I thought it would not have had as quick a ratio from the factory. I inspected as closely as possible all the components when I rebuilt the suspension. I didn't see anything of concern.

[nicks67camaro]

[quote=aray327] Since the car is not a z/28 I thought it would not have had as quick a ratio from the factory.quote]

Mine was a factory RS car that didn't have a quick ration box. Alot of guys would put them in because they were available. I bet someone swapped it out.

Off topic what type of wheels are those???

[aray327]

Intro's ID 311 with powerder coated gun metal mat finish centers. They have a name for the color but I can't recal it. I started a highly debated thread on why wheels costs soo much, and ended up spending the money on these. They really are worth the money and fit perfectly!

[David Pozzi]

You didn't say if you have power steering or manual steering.:dunno:
Is the idler arm good?
David

[aray327]

I do have power steering. The idler arm seemed fine. Next opportunity I have I will have someone in the car moving the steering wheel while I double check it, but I removed all the steering linkage to clean and paint it and it seemed to be ok.

[David Pozzi]

Sometimes separating the linkage with a pickle fork can damage the joint internally.

Stock 69 boxes can be very quick, they are variable ratio and 14 to 1 on-center, but something like 10 to 1 off-center. The problem with this box is, the effort level is very light.
A constant ratio high effort box would be better, look at ATS boxes or for a low cost box that has stiff feel, the AGR box, or a 3rd gen Camaro box with hose adapters and new rag joint to adapt the different size input shaft.
David

[aray327]

Dave, how do you feel about performing the Guldstran mod with all the other items I have? I am guessing I will be able to get more caster which I believe will help. I only have 2 degrees right now.

I never use a pickle fork. To separate the ball joints I use a 3/4" bolt threaded into a coupler and force the joints apart by turning the bolt between the upper and lower joints. On the pitman arm and tie rod ends I just soak them with liquid wrentch and keep tapping on the arm or spindle until they fall out.

What steering box do you recomend?

[wendell]

Aside from 2degrees caster, what are your alignment specs?

[aray327]

I don't recall the camber, toe is about 1/8

[6'9"Witha69]

I don't recall the camber, toe is about 1/8In or out?

[aray327]

1/8 in

[JamesJ]

What was it like before the mods?

[streetk14]

I'd have to ask the same thing, did it feel like this before? I'd assume that would be a yes.

For one thing, 2 degrees of caster seems really low for an aftermarket control arm setup. I had about 5-5.5 degrees of caster on my '68 with the Global West UCAs. I was able to get 6 degrees out of the AME C5 sub that is in my '67, but I did the alignment myself and took my time to get it spot-on. That's where it comes in handy to be a tech and have access to very modern alignment equipment on the weekend. I must have spend 2 hours getting it right this last time. Positive caster should give you a firmer steering feel and just better overall stability at higher speeds.

I'd suggest that you get a steering box from ATS that is supposed to give you firm, rack and pinion feel. I'd also replace all the steering linkage while you are at it. If it's original it must have some wear.

Andy

[6'9"Witha69]

ATS' boxes are built by Tom Lee in Sun Valley for us SoCal guys. Save a few bucks on shipping.

www.leepowersteering.com
Lee Manufacturing Co
11661 Pendleton St
Sun Valley, CA 91352

I looked and don't see that they advertise increased +caster built into the arms, which could be why 2 is the most you can get without shim stacks from hell on one bolt (which becomes unsafe).

[aray327]

before i made any changes the car sat for 15yrs or so. When I got it running I still had 15+yr old bias ply rubber. As I began tearing into things the ball joints were worn, and several suspension/steering peices were not as tight as they should have been. That would explain why the car felt so loose from the start. The steering was always quick, since I haven't changed the box there has been no difference in ratio. I do have better steering response now but not as good as I believe it should be.

My dad had a 69 with a quick ratio box, both his and mine feel about the same except my steering is much lighter; and he ran a 6" front rim compared to my 8".

I was told by the alignment shop that my frame had likely settled over the years and is now about 1/8 to a 1/4 out from original specs. Coupled with the very thick shafts on my upper arms, they were not able to get enough shims in to create more caster. After discussing it with them I suggested pulling the arms and milling the shaft about 1/4 to be able to provide more room for alignment.

Here are a couple more photos. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3014561

This is what I will do: Look again at the steering linkage, idler are, tie rod ends, etc. and replace as needed. Perform the G mod and relocate the upper arms. Look at Lee and/or 80's iroc box. Mill the shafts. Did I miss anything?

[eville]

you can get offset shafts from global west... might help.

[hotrodf1]

Hate to even suggest this, so forgive me if you've considered this already, but you could always sell the CPP UCAs on eBay and get the SC&C Stage 1 (or Stage 1 plus) kit from Marcus (he is also a vendor here). He is a super guy to work with and that kit will really wake up the handling on the front - the longer ball joints he uses in effect makes the spindles taller, something that no control arm alone can do (maybe your CPP spindles do this instead?). The stage one + upps the ante a little and has even longer ball joints (Howe Heavy duty) and will get you all the neg. camber gain you need WITHOUT doing the G Mod. The G mod is just drilling holes, but you have to really be spot on, which can be difficult given where you are trying to drill / obstacles around, etc.

Either kits contain the SPC adjustable arms which allow a great alignment using NO shims, which is sweet to say the least. You can cut those long bolts off some and get a lot more header clearance as well which can help if they need to come off. You can get all the caster you need with the adjustment of the arms. (DIY alignments are much easier with these too )

The offset shafts are another way you could go, and I suppose you could just mill the ones you have, though I would be a bit concerned about strength if it were me.

I am personally convinced that for us stock subframe guys, the SC&C Stage 1 + is probably the best upgrade you can do for steering performance. It takes the stock positive camber gain (very bad for performane handling, tires lean out as suspension compresses) and gives you a nice neg. camber gain like that of a late model performance car (Corvette, etc., tires lean in at top as suspension compresses) plus raises the front roll center from underground (stock) to several inches above ground (I forget the exact figure, Marcus can tell you)- which will naturally reduce body roll without increasing spring rate or sway bars diameter! Another sweet benefit.

And it WORKS! Again, not intending to offend here, and I admittedly don't know the CPP product line, just wanted to throw another option out there. I have had to stop, punt, and redirect myself before, it happens sometimes.

[68sixspeed]

If the steering linkage is good, definately change the steering box to the ATS/Lee or DSE; it makes a HUGE difference in feel and dartyness.

[TitoJones]

ATS' boxes are built by Tom Lee in Sun Valley for us SoCal guys. Save a few bucks on shipping.



Our boxes are built to our specs. If you order from Lee it will not have the same internals that we have found works the best on these cars. Don't get me wrong it will still be kick ass, but it will not be the same due to valving difference, steering stops, and blue printing tolerance that we request.

Lee also drop ships my boxes direct to the client.

Tyler

[BonzoHansen]

I'd want more caster.

[chicane67]

Yup... more caster and more valving in the steering box itself.

The stock box really lags in the 'feed back' catagory and most of that is due to a lack of proper valving for the technology advances of the later years.

Dialing more caster in will help with the self centering... and give it a little more feed back... but a valving change would make the biggest difference. A LEE box is definately a solution to many issues all at once.

But I think your control arm choice has really bitten you in the booty. They are completely inadequate for what you are trying to accomplish.

[David Pozzi]

I would do the guldstrand mod, but it won't add much positive caster. It only moves the upper arm back about 1/4" or so. You might get another 1/2 deg caster out of it. The Global West upper A arms have the most caster built in.

Another issue is that first gen Camaros have quite a bit of bumpsteer which the caster will reduce. The toe in you have is excessive for modern wide radial tires. More negative camber requires less toe-in. for 0 camber use 1/16 toe-in. For 1 deg negative camber use 1/16" toe-OUT.

I've been wondering if the stock Camaro geometry is causing some of the issues. Having the camber move from positive to negative may be part of the issue when combined with the bumpsteer they have.
David

[Bowtie]

aray327, check your PM.
Craig

[aray327]

been busy over the weekend. Just checked PM!

Thanks for the input. I spoke with CCP over the weekend. They have 5 degrees of caster built in, so I think my issue is specific to my car. The suggestion of SC&C arms sounds good but the thought of buying new arms.... I think I will start by milling my shafts, the guy at CCP didn't have an issue with the idea of milling them. I will also do the Guldstran mod while the arms are off. Those are two things I can do for no money.

I didn't wont to spend the money on the steering box just yet, but if the price is right I guess I have to consider it.

Do you guys think I am going in the right direction here?

[Ripper]

get more caster - there's your problem.

[David Pozzi]

Check the front antiroll bar end links, they should not be over tightened. Often the arms do not sit level due to the car being lowered, the end link bushings are pretty stiff, and can bind up the suspension if too tight. The old method for rubber bushings like shock bushings was to torque until the bushing swelled up to the washer OD. If you do that to a poly bushing, they will be too tight.
David

[aray327]

I will check and loosen my end links, I am certain they are tight. I used drop spindles to lower the car so I don't think there is too much angle on the sway bar. I don't understand how the sway bar being too tight would cause the light steering, or are you saying this is another issue I should look into?

I replaced all the tie rods, adjustment shaft and idler arm this weekend. There is no difference in steering feel. I am looking into the ATS steering box. Do you guys really think the box will give me that much better feeling? I am thinking of temporarily disconnecting the power steering pump to see what a difference it would make.

[6'9"Witha69]

Don't run a PS box w/o pressure. It will be worse than a manual box. Not a 'fix' by any means.

The ATS/Lee box is phenominal compared to ANY factory box. Period.

[David Pozzi]

I will check and loosen my end links, I am certain they are tight. I used drop spindles to lower the car so I don't think there is too much angle on the sway bar. I don't understand how the sway bar being too tight would cause the light steering, or are you saying this is another issue I should look into?

I replaced all the tie rods, adjustment shaft and idler arm this weekend. There is no difference in steering feel. I am looking into the ATS steering box. Do you guys really think the box will give me that much better feeling? I am thinking of temporarily disconnecting the power steering pump to see what a difference it would make.

A better box like ATS or a 3rd gen Camaro box will rid you of any Lightness feel. The antiroll bar tightness affects ride and seems to show up at higher speeds as a shake or vibration if it's too tight.