Martz rear suspension

[73-TYPE-LT-LS1]

I've done a few searches here and it seems most serious corner carvers would not go with this kit due to suspension bind.

My question is if I fabbed up a new set of upper and lower bars to run 3/4" heims, would that help some of the binding issue?

I'm considering this kit as I am mainly going to be drag racing the car but would like to be able to switch out all 4 coil overs, re-connect the front sway bar and play in a few corners.

I'd prefer coilovers rather than leafs for the adjustability and don't want to cut in to the floor.. Thanks in advance.

[73-TYPE-LT-LS1]

So 78 views and no responses?

[Salt Racer]

My question is if I fabbed up a new set of upper and lower bars to run 3/4" heims, would that help some of the binding issue?

No. The bind comes from a combination of a redundant restraint (4th longitudinal link) and link angles, not from the pivot points. Big soft rubber bushings would help, but they'll introduce non-linear roll resistance.



I'd prefer coilovers rather than leafs for the adjustability and don't want to cut in to the floor.. Thanks in advance.

A true purpose of coil overs is adjusting corner weight, not to change the ride height. That can be done on leafs, even though it's a little more time consuming. Leafs are much better than poorly executed link suspension, which you probably would end up with if you don't alter the floor. There are drag cars that run 8s with skinny slicks with leafs, and there are kick ass road race cars that run leafs.


Note: I don't know what Martz kit for F-body looks like, but generally speaking stock floor panels of factory leaf-sprung cars compromise geometry of link suspension.

[73-TYPE-LT-LS1]

What if:

Here is the Martz rear suspension. http://www.martzchassis.net/camaro7073rearinstall

Here is something I found interesting (Look at the 3 pics of the 3 link, mainly pic 2) http://www.msnusers.com/69LS1camero


No imagine re-inforcing the DS loop on the Martz and running a 3rd link from that point.

Bad idea?? There would be very little cutting of the stock floor pan if any.

Couls swap to the 4-bar when drag racing and switch to the 3-link for road racing.

[Mean 69]

Gulp! Where to start?

A three link, versus a four link, will not have any disadvantages on the strip if it is designed correctly. No need to switch back and forth, at all.

The Martz unit is clearly (I hope) designed with packaging in mind, rather than performance. The most startling thing I see with it is the incerdibly short SVSA, if you are not going further than the drag strip, or the corner grocery store at 50 MPH, it "might" be acceptable, if you have a lot of room to stop. Okay, that may be an exaggeration...

Before you select a rear suspension approach, decide what it is you want from the car. If you want it to look really cool, then there are some neat IRS units that could be adapted. If you want it to fit in the stock car configuration, it is hard to beat a really well set up leaf arrangement. If you want to drag race, but don't care about cornering, then many of the highly available drag race four link/ladder bar setups will most likely work just fine.

If you want to road race, well, then there are few available options, but this venue is perhaps the most challenging of all suspension applications, and you'd better get it right if you know what is good for you. And, by the way, if this IS your intent, you are in for a long, fun, incredible education. Eh, Katz/Chicane/Pozzi, et. al?

Mark

[Cdog]

Gulp! Where to start?

A three link, versus a four link, will not have any disadvantages on the strip if it is designed correctly. No need to switch back and forth, at all.

The Martz unit is clearly (I hope) designed with packaging in mind, rather than performance. The most startling thing I see with it is the incerdibly short SVSA, if you are not going further than the drag strip, or the corner grocery store at 50 MPH, it "might" be acceptable, if you have a lot of room to stop. Okay, that may be an exaggeration...

Before you select a rear suspension approach, decide what it is you want from the car. If you want it to look really cool, then there are some neat IRS units that could be adapted. If you want it to fit in the stock car configuration, it is hard to beat a really well set up leaf arrangement. If you want to drag race, but don't care about cornering, then many of the highly available drag race four link/ladder bar setups will most likely work just fine.

If you want to road race, well, then there are few available options, but this venue is perhaps the most challenging of all suspension applications, and you'd better get it right if you know what is good for you. And, by the way, if this IS your intent, you are in for a long, fun, incredible education. Eh, Katz/Chicane/Pozzi, et. al?

Mark


So what then is the best set up as of now for the rear suspension for a streetable road race 1st gen?

[Salt Racer]

...If you want to road race, well, then there are few available options, but this venue is perhaps the most challenging of all suspension applications, and you'd better get it right if you know what is good for you. And, by the way, if this IS your intent, you are in for a long, fun, incredible education. Eh, Katz/Chicane/Pozzi, et. al?

Mark

Yeah, tell me about it...


So what then is the best set up as of now for the rear suspension for a streetable road race 1st gen?

I heard a rumor from someone on this board that some guy in San Diego is building a nice weld-in rear suspension kit for himself and the tipster :ssst:

[Cdog]

Yeah, tell me about it...



I heard a rumor from someone on this board that some guy in San Diego is building a nice weld-in rear suspension kit for himself and the tipster :ssst:


I guess that's what I'm getting at. So many opinions, So many options and so little real performance tests. I think a lot of guy's are sold on this stuff because it looks cool. I can't see spending 7G's on a subframe that looks like it should kick ass on the track, And that may only work correctly with a certin kind of rear suspension. If i'm forkin out 10G's where is my proof that if installed correctly my car will do what I what it to do? So what would make the best PROVEN combo on a first gen camaro?

Has anyone seen the new super chevy with the 69 camaro? It's got a Martz sub frame and a truck arm rear. They did test's compared to a o2 Z28. You can see how little body roll the rear of the car has compared to the front end. Comments????

[MuscleRodz]

I am know expert in this area but I can tell you that the Martz rear suspension you showed is more for looks than go. It has got to have poor handling characteristics. A properly built 4 link will require floor surgery. From what you described what you want to do, I would stick to a well developed leaf suspension. Hotchkis has great parts for going around corners in a second gen. Good luck on what ever route you choose.

Mike

[Salt Racer]

Believe me...The design priority of the kit I mentioned was suspension kinematics, not the packaging or aesthetics (not that I'm saying it will look ugly).

The truth of the matter (at least in my mind) is, you can make pretty much any kind of stick-axle rear suspension grip well in lateral direction. The differences are consistency, behavior at the limit, and compromises you'll have to make in other areas (acceleration and braking). So-called good rear suspension is the one that is predictable and consistant, with least amount of compromises in all areas.

[Cdog]

Believe me...The design priority of the kit I mentioned was suspension kinematics, not the packaging or aesthetics (not that I'm saying it will look ugly).

The truth of the matter (at least in my mind) is, you can make pretty much any kind of stick-axle rear suspension grip well in lateral direction. The differences are consistency, behavior at the limit, and compromises you'll have to make in other areas (acceleration and braking). So-called good rear suspension is the one that is predictable and consistant, with least amount of compromises in all areas.

I like that. Be sure to post this rear set up when there is more info about it. San Diego just down the 5 from me. Are there any pic's of it yet? How about cost?

[Salt Racer]

You're asking the wrong guy. I just happen to know what he's doing (actually most long-timers here know what he's doing). But the kit should be released by next summer. He's just about finishing his car, so development stage will start soon.

P.S. to the guy in San Diego,
I don't think I've said too much, but please do let me know if I did.

[Cdog]

Is the DSE set up like what's on the mule the way to go? I talked to them and they said they should have a kit sometime in the first quarter of 2005.

[MuscleRodz]

That would be a good choice. They know what they are doing over there.

Mike

[TBART70]

i bought an art morrison rear clip w/ tri-4bar suspension and coil overs for my 70 camaro, it was alot of money but i think it will work very well.(still working on install). it is the same suspension he used in the rear of his 55 chevy. check out his site or super chevy mag, they had the build up on it.

[Mean 69]

P.S. to the guy in San Diego,

No, it's cool bud. Your timeline, etc, is correct by the way. It'd go a whole bunch quicker if you moved out of the rain and into the sunshine! The car is on her feet, the motor is on but not yet running, and the weather is good.


i bought an art morrison rear clip w/ tri-4bar suspension and coil overs for my 70 camaro, it was alot of money but i think it will work very well.(

Err, the guy that designed that setup has been known to post on here from time to time....

Hey! Did you guys see the latest copy of PHR? Ralphy has a little blurb in there about the SEMA dinner! Kind of cool! I still remember "most" of the dinner, but after that, well things got a little fuzzy.....

Mark

[73-TYPE-LT-LS1]

Ok.. I've made up my mind on this now. I'm going to go with the Martz setup by try and do my idea above. This is the worst photo chop in the world but you'll understand what I am talking about.

http://73-ls1.com/rear2.jpg

Removing the upper arms and adding a 3rd link in at the top of the rear. 1" DOM tubing. I may have to cut just a little at the end of the trans tunnel to make it adjustable for when ride height is changed, but I think it will be minimal.

I'm thinking of doing the adjustments on the 3-link very similar to this.
http://73-ls1.com/PICT0010.JPG
http://73-ls1.com/PICT0012.JPG

The bracket on the rear and the cross member are going to get squared off and then I will radius drill 2 holes on the front bracket and 3 on the rear bracket so the angle on the LCA's can be adjusted.

I will be using a heim style LCA so I can center the rear in the wheel well as well if need be.


I know it won't be optimal, but I think it will do fairly well.

[Salt Racer]

No, it's cool bud. Your timeline, etc, is correct by the way. It'd go a whole bunch quicker if you moved out of the rain and into the sunshine! The car is on her feet, the motor is on but not yet running, and the weather is good.

Thanks Mark. Yeah, I know. I really need to move down there. I got some serious thinkings to do over the holiday.



..Err, the guy that designed that setup has been known to post on here from time to time....

Really? I had no idea... ;)


You guys, there are TONS of info about rear suspension from the old board in archive section. Rather than just asking "what's best?", try doing some research by yourself. You're building a car for yourself, and you know better than anyone else how the car is going to be used (BE HONEST!). You don't need killer road race setup for just cruising around town. Even if you do OT events occasionally, properly setup leaf springs can kick some serious arse! Read what CarlC and JonB69FB have done in their F-bodies in this thread. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2358G

Learn what the advantages/disadvantages of different setups, and YOU decide what you need for YOUR car.

[yody]

here is another post with the martz 4 setup;http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/005996.html

[73-TYPE-LT-LS1]

Salt Racer,

I have a very good understanding what I want in the car and I have done multiple searches. I am a moderator on LS1tech and understand the importance of doing searches, not asking redundant questions. I didn't ask what's best, I am simply looking for ways to enhance this semi bolt in system from Martz. Many people have pointed out that there will be a lot of suspension bind. I'm asking if turning it in to a 3-link would help it.


What I want in the car is:

1) Stock floor pans!! (Very minor mods ok)
2) A great handling platform that also does very well at the drag strip
3) Minor changes going from dragstrip to a road race set up (Coil swap, 3-link/4-link bars and tires would would be a 30 minute swap)
4) Simple adjustable ride height
5) Sex apeal


Every stock floor pan suspesnion that I have "searched" out does not offer this. (Leafs)

Every suspension that I see offers this does not allow you to keep the stock floor pan. (HTH or full custom)

If you have other options, please show them to me.

[73-TYPE-LT-LS1]

here is another post with the martz 4 setup;http://www.nastyz28.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/005996.html

I'm LIL SS on that post :)

[Salt Racer]

My comment was towards people here in general, not you. But, try searching for "4-link" or "3-link" in archive section. You'll find answer to your question, and you'll even find how to set up 3-link properly. Lots of guys got into some hot discussions on 4-link/3-link/4-bar, etc, not too long ago (I think it was around July~August).

Likewise on leaf spring comment. TOO MANY people overlook leaf springs just b/c they've been around since the days of horse buggies. If you're in your late 20's or older, you probably remember the white Camaro Mark Stielow built. The car ran high 11s on NA 406 and pulled over 1.0G on skidpad running on DOT-R radials (IIRC, old BFG R1s) with, guess what, a pair of leaf springs. To me, that's sex appeal. I'd much rather have a car that works (especially in stealthy manner), rather than a car that looks like it works. But this is JMO. To each his own.

Anyway, my answer to your question is, it depends. If you set it up right, 3-link works great. If not, you could end up with a suspension that is inferior to properly setup leaf springs. It's all in pivot locations. Again, try searching in archive section. You'll find most of the info you'll need.

[David Pozzi]

You might ask Martz if he will build you a three link version, it should be easy to change over.
I have some doubts of his understanding of the bind problems, but he might. If you remove the upper links make the lower links level and add an upper link, you will have a three link suspension. Three link is a good way to go, but it must be sturdy and have links long enough, the Martz links look rather short.
David

[TBART70]

Err, the guy that designed that setup has been known to post on here from time to time....

sorry. have not been here that long. went to archive, found alot of his posts, wish i knew about that before, would have liked to talked to him before i bought it. even more happy about it now.