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View Full Version : Q about 2004r full manual valve body



Firehawkslp
01-29-2007, 08:01 PM
I've got a project RX-7 Turbo II chassis 3000 to 3300lbs, 4-wh discs, full independent suspension, 8" ring gear, in the diff. The only gear set available is what's in it (4.10). Power from a 383 SBC should make 430 to 450 horse and 460 to 475 torque.
The 200r4 has a better gear splits than a 700r4 (w/4.10s don't need or want 3.06 1st gr of the 700) and fits the trans tunnel w/o any mods.
How practical is it to run a full manual valve body on the Street, Auto-x and Trackday events; also recommendations on stall for the convertor? I'm going to keep the lockup feature of the convertor.

Thanks

myclone
01-30-2007, 03:09 AM
How practical is it to run a full manual valve body on the Street, Auto-x and Trackday events;

It depends on your definition of "practical" really. Some folks consider a detuned top fuel car practical as long as the DMV will sell them lic plates for it while other ppl want the practicality of a lexus and will settle for nothing less.

With that being said I consider myself to be the "knuckle dragger", thinks a cam is only too big if it wont fit in the block, open headers arent too loud type person and even I soon tired of a full manual VB on for a daily driver. For a weekend/nice weather toy that might make the drive to work and back once a week or less it isnt bad but the constant shifting without the "fun" of a manual trans just got old after a while.

My suggestion would be that if youre undecided is to try driving a regular automatic for a week or two and do EVERY up/down shift manually to see if you can tollerate it. No cheating either...LOL if you pull up to a stop light manually shift it into 1st and when you take off shift every gear manually at every stop (remember no cheating!). As Im sure youre aware you dont have to be balls to he wall WOT to do this just drive normally other than shifting the trans manually rather than letting the slush box do its own thing (a week or two of this wont harm the trans any) and once youve done a week or so of this think about how much you did or did not enjoy it and then decide if doing the shifting ALL of the time was as much fun (or not) as you thought it would be.


also recommendations on stall for the convertor?
Youre not going to need a huge stall with that weight/hp and gearing IMO...maybe ~2600rpm or therebouts depending on what you want to do with the car (street/drag/track days/etc). My advice is to buy a proven/quality converter and get the vendors input on stall speed since they sell them every day all day.

BTW, cheap ebay parts are tempting but be aware that a cheaply made converter has not only the potential to make you unhappy with its performance but to take out a perfectly good (and expensive) trans if its of poor construction.

There is more than one quite knowledgable 200 torque converter vendor on the turbobuick.com forum so some research using their "search" feature will be advantagious to you IMO.



I'm going to keep the lockup feature of the convertor.


Nothing wrong with that and I highly recommend that you keep it. There are lock up converters available that will tollerate WOT lock up with huge power available and IMO it greatly improves the drivability of a higher stall equipped trans. Be aware that they can be spendy when it comes time to purchase but refer to the above statement about cheap vs higher cost parts...at least when it comes to torque converters IMO. There are places to save a few bucks but I learned the hard way that spending more for a quality converter first is usually cheaper than buying three or four cheap pieces...not to mention the cost of multiple rebuilds after cheap converters that are full of manufacturing swarf ruines the trans its bolted to...but thats another story.

Firehawkslp
01-30-2007, 10:13 PM
This is definately a toy. The idea to use the manual valve body was to put some of the "fun" back in to driving it, also get better control of the gear selection. My 91 Formula Firebird has a 350 making dyno 375 (at the wheels) has a warmed over 700 has sometime not made the best gear choices shifting down or up say in the middle of a turn.
I my go with the 700 after all as TCI makes a valve body that doesn't transfer engine braking on the down shift. Which could upset the chassis in a turn.
By practical I mean: I had 69 Charge R/T 440 Magnum 727torquflite. I installed a Turbo Action full manual valvebody in it. It was a bear; not the shifting, but since it ran full line pressure all the time it really banged into gear. I eventually figured out that if you lifted at each shift it was much more bearable.

Jayco_Automotive
01-31-2007, 07:01 PM
you do realise the 200-4r wasn't the most durable transmission, or best designed infact most transmission shop laugh at them lol. the 4l60 on the otherhand was a better design except for the 2-4 band and the 3-4 clutch pack and an occational planet failure all of which can be corrected. and the 4l60 is easier to conver to full manual **** but with a few changes can be changed back to an automatic, just my opinion.

myclone
02-01-2007, 03:09 AM
you do realise the 200-4r wasn't the most durable transmission, or best designed infact most transmission shop laugh at them lol. the 4l60 on the otherhand was a better design except for the 2-4 band and the 3-4 clutch pack and an occational planet failure all of which can be corrected. and the 4l60 is easier to conver to full manual **** but with a few changes can be changed back to an automatic, just my opinion.

Id have to respectfully disagree 100% with the above. The 200 has been proven reliable when properly prepped to low 10s/high 9s in the buick grand national community for well over a decade. These are full weight (~3500lb) cars with AC, full interior, and power accessories running trans brakes with slicks and launching at 10, 15, or 20+lbs of boost. Try that with a 4L60 (aka 700R4) and it'll scatter all over the track in just a few passes...if not on the first pass (BTDT).

As far as better design that could be argued all day long but IMO where the 200 gets the nod over the 700/60 is that the 200 has a center support that indexes into the case which supports the gear train more precisely. The 60E has no such support and the proper gear train alignment is 100% dependant on the internal shafts being fitting into bushings (think cam bearings only more sloppy as far as clearances). The lack of a center support lets the gear train flop around and skews the alignment which puts unbearable stress on the gear train...hence the gear train eats itself when subjected to shock loading or high tq stresses. The 4L60/700 is fine for moderate hp but start feeding it more than 450-500hp/tq with traction and its a time bomb.

In this particular case the deep/low 1st gear in the 4L60, low rear gears, and somewhat light weight of the car is going to just blow the tires off in first gear then nose over one the huge gear ratio spread of the 1-2 shift that the 4L60 has. The 200 has a much more friendly gear spread which makes keeping the engine in its power band quite a bit easier which makes the car not only quicker but easier to drive IMO.

The only down sides to a 200 compared to a 4L60/700R4 is the fact that the case is one piece with no removable tail housing so when installing one in an application that has minimal space you may have to run a super short drive shaft. The 700 has a removable tail housing as well as a number of different length output shafts so you can mix n match parts to get an optimal drive shaft length and drive line angle. Thats not a huge problem unless the application is a super short wheel base car or some kind of odd ball geometry in the set up requires a longer drive shaft to get the drive line angle correct.

The other plus to a 4L60/700R4 is that hard parts are cheap, rebuild kits are cheap at ~$120 (cheaper if you buy ebay/made in Bumfolia kits), and they can be torn down and rebuilt in a day with only slightly more than regular hand tools.

Firehawkslp
02-04-2007, 02:13 AM
Gentleman;I appareciate your time and input really Thanks.
I'm of the opinion that both trannys can be :drive1: :confused: :) built to reliable handle the power, I expect to make. The original question was about the manual valve body. Is it going to give me whiplash at every gear change or will the affects of mild stall tame it.
Better still how is your auto setup in your dual purpose track car street toy?

ROAD WARRIOR
02-04-2007, 10:41 AM
I have a full manual valve body equipped 200-4R in my 73 Javelin, and I LOVE IT! To me, it is like driving a clutchless 4 speed. I haven't had any tracktime yet, and I am basically a cruiser. But I have found it to be very fun and livable on the street.

myclone
02-04-2007, 10:51 AM
The original question was about the manual valve body. Is it going to give me whiplash at every gear change or will the affects of mild stall tame it.

Learn the shift points of the trans at various light throttle driving situations and just lift off the throttle when the trans shifts. That will ease up on the teeth rattling shift quality when you dont want it. A higher stall will soften the shifts some as well but trying to tame down a trans thats too brutal using stall speed may turn the car into something you dont enjoy driving if you get really high with stall speed. A 5500 RPM converter can be a pain in stop and go traffic...but then again its all relative since you may end up enjoying it where as myself or other folks would hate it.

My advice is to try it out and see if you like it..if not yank the trans, sell it, and put in a milder slush box.

As I stated before...what is tollerable to one person may not be to another so IMO it boils down to what you like and/or can tollerate.


Better still how is your auto setup in your dual purpose track car street toy?

Minimal street time, minimal track time, and maximum time up on jack stands so Im no help here:pat: .