BTO 4L80E or 200-4R??

[Josh]

I am having a tuff time finding a good used 480LE in my neck of the woods, only one I can find is in the local yard from a diesel truck = $700. The stage III 200-4R from Bow Tie overdrives looks like a decent option but I still question durability. This would be behind a 540 BBC pushing out 630+ Ft/lbs, 95% street driven. BTO also sells a rebuilt 4L80E for $2000 but does not have half the heavy duty parts the 200-4R has. Which would hold up better? I realize I would have to buy a controller for the 4L80E but I do like the idea of being able to set shift points etc. and possibly a paddle shifter in the future. What do you guys think??

[DeltaT]

I would (and did) go with the 80E. I am very happy with it and like the programmability. Mine's behind a blown 383.

Jim

[Josh]

Thanks for the input Bill.

[Jagarang]

4L80E needs a pricey controller

[hectore3]

K.I.S.S Principle,

Those built 200R4's are easily backing up turbo Buicks. My money is on that trans or if you really feel crazy. Go with a built TH400 inline with a Gear Vendors overdrive.

[vintageracer]

2004R. There good enough for 9 second Grand Nationals so it should work for you! Not necessarily a cheaper choice since your application will require needed upgrades for high horsepower/torque but a 2004R is a good package. Also it's easy to install.

[rocketrod]

2004R! Check out www.turbobuick.com, username Brian. He sells a very stout and reasonably priced 2004R.

[DeltaT]

I would rathe have an understressed, overbuilt unit like the 4L80E than an overstressed, overbuilt unit like the 200R4. I guess it depends on whether you expect to rebuild the tranny every season or two, or expect it to last for 60K miles without any major service. Remember the big block is putting out the torque all the time, whereas you need to be jumping on the V6 turbo to get their ungodly torque numbers. The rest of the time they are driving around like a normal V6.

As far as the TH400 and GV Overdrive, at that price level you are easily on a par with a built 4L80E with controller, and you are getting a way more flexible and programmable package. My total, without a good 80E core to send back to Hughes, was $4800. A $500 core would have given me back about $400 (Hughes charges $1000 for a core charge) after shipping them the core.

There's even an E-trans-brake available for the 80E now, through Rossler.

Here's a pic:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2006/02/383_mpfi_vortech_4l80e-1.jpg

Jim

My Site: http://home.mindspring.com/~jim_fisk/id1.html

[Roadrage David]

Remember the big block is putting out the torque all the time, whereas you need to be jumping on the V6 turbo to get their ungodly torque numbers. The rest of the time they are driving around like a normal V6. Thats not intirely acurate!!!! the big block is only thumping out torque when you nail it under normal driving conditions it wil give no more torque then the v6 turbo by regulare street driven speeds/ manners. it al comes douwn to your right feet .

[DeltaT]

Umm, most big blocks have over 400ft/lb by 1600rpm, right? And it goes up from there. You could drive that V6 all day without putting your foot in it and stay below 200ft/lb. It only delivers the torque when you put your foot way into it and the turbo spools up. No heavy throttle, no turbo spool. The bigblock will consistently deliver more torque to the tranny.


Jim

[Josh]

My current situation is such that I need to have something I can install and not think about for several years, ie. not have to rebuild. 4 kids under 5 years old = Limited time in the garage!
My foot does tend to advance the throttle forward at any given opportunity so this tranny will see torque..

[rocketrod]

Josh,

Where are you located?

[myclone]

My current situation is such that I need to have something I can install and not think about for several years, ie. not have to rebuild. 4 kids under 5 years old = Limited time in the garage!
My foot does tend to advance the throttle forward at any given opportunity so this tranny will see torque..

4L80E hands down with the above said...

BTW, I dunno where youre located but Ive picked up low milage (40-60k) 80Es for 200-350 bucks off of individuals. Forget salvage yards since these trans's are used in HD trucks, delivery vans, etc and they KNOW they can get top dollar for them since those vehicles need to be on the road at all times. What Ive found is keep an eye out for individuals that are parting out wrecked/blown up 2500 series burbs and trucks (contractors especially) since they just know it has a transmission but really dont know what kind or what its worth (least thats what Ive seen).

Example: 96 2wd 80E out of a burb that some kids rich dad had given him which he used to pick up a bunch of his buds, they all got high, then he drove it and them into a pole/ditch at ~45mph. The burb had 54k miles on it.....price for trans/converter=$200

95 4wd 80E from a 3500 dually diesel that a contractor never bothered to check/change the oil.......$150 (hell the whole truck could have been bought for ~$800).

Theres more examples but my point is that if you take your time and do some careful/smart looking you can find 80E's for mere mortal prices.

[Steve Chryssos]

Once you have calibrated a transmission by computer you will never go back.

Think how many hot rods are out there with automatics that shift into high gear by 30mph. Does it have a shift kit? Sure. Other modifications? Sure But did the source modify the shift points for a specific application? Rarely. Final gear ratio, Tire diameter, engine power curve, vehicle specs (i.e. weight), etc. And don't forget throttle position or engine load. All of these variable and more affect how and when a transmission shifts.

Try this experiment: Call ten transmission shops and quiz them. See how many shops really ask for detailed vehicle specs when they try to sell you a transmission. My guess is you will have to contact 50 shops before you reach one who will genuinely calibrate a TH350, TH400, 2004R, 700R4 etc. for your EXACT application. The rest are just pulling identical transmissions off the shelf. How well it works is essentially pot luck. And if you wanted to fine tune that calibration yourself, you would get covered in trans fluid once or twice before you got ir right.

SO........

Given the direct comparison that has been set forth (200 vs 80) and the intended application, the hands down winner is a 4L80E because:

A) The 4L80E was designed from the start for both high torque AND high GVW applications. Very little modification is required for your monster big block 3400lb application. And that's my interpretation of the KISS principle--less mods. Yes, a 200 can be heavily modified to suit this application, but why bother when you can practically dig a 4L80E out of the dirt and slap it in the ass?

B) CALIBRATION, CALIBRATION, CALIBRATION!! I know this is hard to appreciate until you've tried it, but calibrating an electronic transmission is both easy and highly effective. I can't emphasize that enough. How easy? How effective? Calibrating a 4L80E is as easy as setting up the email account in your computer. If you can do that, or know someone who can, you can calibrate a 4L80E to your exact needs. It's way easier than setting up fuel injection. No chassis dyno or diagnostic equipment. Just a laptop and fingertips. And it is MORE reliable than a non electronic transmission. Proper calibration will enhance reliability. How effective is it? Calibrating a 4L80E will completely define and or/change the personality of your hot rod to your exact personal preferences and vehicle specs. The car will respond exactly the way you want it to. Get out of 1st a little sooner while driving around town? No problem. Hold 3rd gear a little longer for on ramps? No problem. Lock up the converter a few mph sooner? Easy. Recalibrate after installing taller rear tires? Piece of cake. You can even have multiple calibrations. One for the strip and one for commuting. Try that with a 200!!

You will absolutely love your custom calibrated 4L80E. I know I'm biased, but I'm also the first to admit that compaitibility with a paddle shifter (and manumatic function in general) is just icing on the cake.

[myclone]

And if you wanted to fine tune that calibration yourself, you would get covered in trans fluid once or twice before you got ir right.

Thats the only thing Id disagree with. To fine tune an off the shelf 700/200 youd get from 99% of the shops you'll get covered in trans fluid a dozen times....if not more.

It sure is nice to do the tuning on an 80E (or a 60E for that matter) while sitting in the drivers seat without even getting your hands dirty.

[ty1295]

I like the 200, but 80e for me budget aside.

I have done 2 syclones now with 80e's and the tranny is just dead nuts killer to work with. Tuning is FUN. People down the cost of the controller but trust me, once you buy it, you will see it as the biggest advantage.

[Josh]

Excellent dialog!
I am located in Upper Michigan, that means 2 hours north of Green Bay, WI (I know...the edge of the earth!). I have had my eyes open for a while now for a low milage 80e with no luck. I do make it down to Chicago a few times a year, but have not really looked that far south yet for an 80e. I would snap up a low milage post 1995 80E in a heartbeat for under 500$ With a few mods, a controler and misc installation parts it would still be under 2500$
Steve- Very insightful info. I really do like the idea of a tranny that will always fit the character of your car no matter what chnages you make.

[DeltaT]

I have my 80E set up so that at 47% TPS (right where the secondaries start to open), all the line pressures and upshift points start going way up. That way you can drive around town with your Mom in the car and not freak her out, nice and comfortable stock-type shifts, let her out, and as soon as you get hard on it, it changes into a Monsta! Headbanging shifts, chirping tires, aggressive downshifts, etc. What a tranny!

Jim

[Roadrage David]

Umm, most big blocks have over 400ft/lb by 1600rpm, right? And it goes up from there. You could drive that V6 all day without putting your foot in it and stay below 200ft/lb. It only delivers the torque when you put your foot way into it and the turbo spools up. No heavy throttle, no turbo spool. The bigblock will consistently deliver more torque to the tranny.


Jim SO!!!!! if you use your foot to drive around with the same pace on the street as anybody els acselerating the same as anybody els hel parking in ore out like any other ordenary car. would the big block in question use that amound of torque!! i dont thingk so . it would if you put the pedal to the metal, becuase the dyno sheets who show so are calculated onther FULL TROTTLE . no way under normal driving conditions will the tranny acounter so mutch torque, becuase the engine is not getting the fuel to do so . if i drive up to lets say 40 miles per hour at a normal pace and the engine turns 1600 rpm and i hold that speed will my transmission get that 400 lbs feet of torque!!!!! absolutly not...........

[DeltaT]

Hmm, why can a big block tow at such a low rpm then? Why not tow with some blown buzzy little bittie 4-banger at like 6 grand... see which motor lasts longer and can pull you up the side of the Continental Divide without spewing coolant all over.

That's what monster displacement brings to the table. Gobs of torque, anywhere off idle.

Jim

[rocketrod]

Hmm, why can a big block tow at such a low rpm then? Why not tow with some blown buzzy little bittie 4-banger at like 6 grand... see which motor lasts longer and can pull you up the side of the Continental Divide without spewing coolant all over.

That's what monster displacement brings to the table. Gobs of torque, anywhere off idle.

Jim
I don't think Roadrage was disagreeing that a BBC would have more torque, but rather the comment you made stating "Umm, most big blocks have over 400ft/lb by 1600rpm, right?" is at/near WOT and not normal driving conditions, but then that isn't the point of this thread....if he wants an electronic trans go with the 80e/60e they would be an excellent choice, otherwise the 2004R will easily handle your BBC and not be overstressed.

[Roadrage David]

Hmm, why can a big block tow at such a low rpm then? Why not tow with some blown buzzy little bittie 4-banger at like 6 grand... see which motor lasts longer and can pull you up the side of the Continental Divide without spewing coolant all over.

That's what monster displacement brings to the table. Gobs of torque, anywhere off idle.

Jim Jim towing is a completly diferend matter becuase THEN you put the transmission onder stress, THEN it will acounter and feel the torque that the bbc is putting out . when driving at lets say 1600 rpm the engine produces ofcours 400 lbs feet of torque , but the car and the transmission are not getting that they are moving around with way less then that , now give it full grip and put a trailer behind it then the tranny will feel that torque ........

[Roadrage David]

I don't think Roadrage was disagreeing that a BBC would have more torque, but rather the comment you made stating "Umm, most big blocks have over 400ft/lb by 1600rpm, right?" is at/near WOT and not normal driving conditions, but then that isn't the point of this thread....if he wants an electronic trans go with the 80e/60e they would be an excellent choice, otherwise the 2004R will easily handle your BBC and not be overstressed. kinda yes!!

[Josh]

So what's the deal with a used 4L80e that was behind a deisel? They are all the same I assume. Are they usually more beat on being behind a deisel motor?

[my72vette454]

I have a 94 6.5 diesel pickup that got 240,000 out of the trans and what happened with it was a pressure spike that broke a piston in a clutch pack. Other than that it looked perfect inside, no debris in the pan and the discs and bands all looked great. A pretty good track record for a farm pickup with lots of stock trailer towing miles on it.

[myclone]

I have a 94 6.5 diesel pickup that got 240,000 out of the trans and what happened with it was a pressure spike that broke a piston in a clutch pack. Other than that it looked perfect inside, no debris in the pan and the discs and bands all looked great. A pretty good track record for a farm pickup with lots of stock trailer towing miles on it.

The pressure spike is a typical flaw that happens in the very early years and not unheard of in the later years. Installing a transgo HD2 kit eliminates that issue ever happening again.

Ive got a 96 model trans apart in the garage right now that was not only in a work vehicle but a work vehicle that about any age bracket driver was behind the wheel at one time or another (translation: shown no mercy). The only issues with that trans were the forward clutches were worn enough I couldnt read the ink printed on the clutch plates but every other friction was in good enough shape I could see the printed part name/number. The other 80e I have apart only has about 55k miles on it but it looks like it was assembled at the factory yesterday. That speaks volumes to me.

FYI this is the cheapest place Ive found the Transgo 80e stuff and Ive always had good experiences doing business with them...\/
http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/4L80E_HD2_Performance_Reprogramming_Kit_p/500-046930hd2.htm

[Josh]

Thanks for the info. The local yard here has one 4l80 available from a deisel for $700. I have to find out how many miles are on it. That is the cheapest I can find around here..actually it is the only one I can find at all. All the trucks around here are 4X4's (lots of snow) so finding a 2WD 4l80 is darn near impossible.
With using an aftermarket controller like the TCI, is a transgo kit still recommended?

[myclone]

Thanks for the info. The local yard here has one 4l80 available from a deisel for $700. I have to find out how many miles are on it. That is the cheapest I can find around here..actually it is the only one I can find at all. All the trucks around here are 4X4's (lots of snow) so finding a 2WD 4l80 is darn near impossible.

I'll keep an eye out for a 2wd shaft or I may end up with an extra at some point if youre not in a huge hurry. The 80e is just now starting to replace the 700R4 in the syclone/typhoon community and when one of those swaps is done an aftermarket output shaft is needed so the stock one is thrown away. I can do some checking with fellow syty 80E guys and see if theyve got a 2wd output shaft laying around theyd get rid of cheap if that will help.


With using an aftermarket controller like the TCI, is a transgo kit still recommended?

It was recommended to me but the one Im doing now is the first unit that I will be using with an aftermarket PCM (TCI as a matter of fact) so I cant personally say one way or the other. However, other folks Ive been in touch with are telling me it will enhance the PCM since you can only get so aggressive with the shifts due to the constraints of the factory valve body configuration. Basically no matter what you command with the PCM you can still only flow so much fluid through a particular port in the valve body so once you hit that flow limit commanding more flow via the PCM does nothing. I was told this is especially an issue when running a 10" or smaller high stall converter that really soaks up the shift feel. The HD2 kit allows you to get as aggressive enough you wouldnt want to drive the car from my understanding LOL. The HD2 kit also has parts for a "pressure blow off" circuit where an uncontrolled pressure rise due to a malfunction has a place to blead off rather than blow the case passage out (which ruines the case when it happens BTW).

I dont know what kind of time line youre on but if all goes well I should have the TCI (aka: FAST) unit and an 80E with 2800 RPM converter up and running by the end of this month (Im not holding my breath though). If your project is further off than that I'd be glad to let you know how the trans works out.

HTH

[Josh]

HTH
I would appreciate any feedback you can give me on that set up with the TCI controller. My timeline is roughly 6 weeks. Thats when the snow is going to be gone here. I have either a rear main seal leak in my motor or a front main leak in my th400. If it ends up being the tranny then it is coming out and a 4l80e is going in. I need to run the car on the road to test for my leak so I have to wait for the snow to melt.

Are you sure the output shaft itself is the same length in a 2WD and a 4X4? At one point I thought someone told be the shaft would need to be changed if swapping tail housings. It would be great if they would just swap. If you come across any housing do let me know, Thanks.
Josh

[myclone]

HTH
Are you sure the output shaft itself is the same length in a 2WD and a 4X4? At one point I thought someone told be the shaft would need to be changed if swapping tail housings. It would be great if they would just swap. If you come across any housing do let me know, Thanks.
Josh

The tail shafts are different on the 2wd and 4wd but the output shaft is replaced with a custom piece as well as the the tail housing discarded when a syclone/typhoon retrofit is done. Those vehicles are all wheel drive so the transfer case is bolted to the back of the case and the custom output shaft is needed due to the transfer case being splined for a 700R4/TH350/PG output shaft.

So, with that said since the syty crowd doesnt care if we start with a 2wd or 4wd unit since the output shaft/tail housing arent used theres prolly one or two 2wd pieces laying around collecting dust.

I'll check with my fellow syty ppl that have done the swap to see if they've got any they'd let go for cheap should you only be able to find a 4wd 80e in your area.

[Josh]

Thanks!
I am assuming that installation of the output shaft would require pulling the guts from the trans?

[myclone]

Thanks!
I am assuming that installation of the output shaft would require pulling the guts from the trans?

Unfortunately the trans has to come completely apart to swap output shafts. Thats the down side if you get a perfectly good low milage unit but it has the wrong output shaft for your application. If you can rebuild a 700R4/4L60E you can tear into an 80E as alot of the "tricks" to for the 700 carry over to it. The 80E stuff is just WAY heavier so your arms get tired quicker from loading the gear train into the case LOL..

[Steve Chryssos]

.......The 80E stuff is just WAY heavier so your arms get tired quicker from loading the gear train into the case LOL..

:lmao:

[Lethal Injection]

Guys, I don't post much on her but read from time to time. I have a 67 chevy ll with a 4L80E and a TCI controller. I have enjoyed the trans and the controller very much. It is behind a 383 with a T76 turbo. The controller is nice to be able to set shift points and line pressures. You can set converter lock-up on wot and many other setting are controllable. The transgo kit for the trans says that it will hold up to 900 hp with the kit installed.


I did not see if you were going to run a speedo cable or you are going to electric gauges. That is something you will need to decide before you put the trans in. Bowtie overdrives makes a tailhousing that converts to the speedo gear and is very nice. If that is something you think you might want you should contact me. I have a unique way to make that happen without changing the tail shaft.

[Josh]

So you are saying you can modify the stock tail shaft for a mechanical speedo? That is likely what I would be using so I just might get hold of you. Does the trango kit go in like the old shift kits in the Th350/400? Or does it require to dive into the guts of the unit?

[Lethal Injection]

So you are saying you can modify the stock tail shaft for a mechanical speedo? That is likely what I would be using so I just might get hold of you. Does the trango kit go in like the old shift kits in the Th350/400? Or does it require to dive into the guts of the unit?

You can call transgo and they will fax you the directions for the kit.

You will need a tailhousing for mechanical speedo. Then you must change the tailshaft to one for a speedo gear.

I happen to go a different route. I bought the tailhousing retail and took a T400 gear and made a collar for it from a splined yoke to put on the original tailshaft. That way you don't need to change tailshafts. I have pictures of it but not here with me. I am not a trans guy so the thought of changing the tail shaft was not something I was wanting to do.

I have recently changed my dash out to a Covan classic with electrical gauges and will be selling the tailhousing for the mechanical speedo along with the gear for it.

[Steve Chryssos]

Great input. One question though, Does the mechanical speedo tailshaft eliminate a place to hookup the VSS for the TCI controller?

[Lethal Injection]

Great input. One question though, Does the mechanical speedo tailshaft eliminate a place to hookup the VSS for the TCI controller?

No, I have been running the mechanical speedo and the TCI controller for about 1 yr. I just pulled it off last week. I will try to attach an image. On the right you will see the gear for the output shaft.

The VSS output is up further on the driver side.

[bonesfab]

4L80e all the way. I have one in a 7500 lb 4wd truck with a blown 509 in it. The first trip to the dyno we spit a stock converter out of it but since then no problems in 35000 miles. I have one of the first tci controllers and have no complaints at all.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks Lethal.

While down in Tennessee last week, I tuned the 4L80E in Bill Howell's 65 GTO. Before I arrived, he was running the base calibration that comes with the TCI controller. This base calibration will work well enough to test drive the car if need be. And it shows that, unlike fuel injection, electronic transmission control is way easier to install. However, before my calibration, this blown LS1 equipped GTO felt like a 307 2bbl. After calibration, it felt like a rocket ship. You could feel the tug on the motor as the transmission clicked off firm, clean shifts. UMPH! And obviously, the line pressure adjustments went a long way towards promoting the efficient transfer of power from the engine.

I've "tuned" many of my customers controllers by telephone. The best part was seeing the look on Bill's face as calibration changes were made. He was driving, I was tuning. In auto mode, he would say: "I want it to shift...........NOW! I would tap the up or down arrow a couple of times, as needed, and we would retest. I tuned that 4L80E to shift absolutely 100% exactly how Bill Howell wants his car to shift. And this was all done with the Tab key and the four arrows on the keyboard. No complicated math. If you make small changes, you will be safe. Then we put the car in manual mode (here comes the salespitch) and clicked of tight gear changes from the paddle shifter. WaaaaAAAA!! BANG! Bill was grinning all over again! The paddle shifter relies on the same calibration. It simply picks up data points from the force motor table curves and overrides the shift timing tables.

Like anything else, there are tips and tricks to make the entire TCI controller experience flawless. I'll be happy to share those tips and tricks with anyone who is trying to tune their controller. Just give me a call.

[Josh]

Lethal,
Sound trick and well thought out. Be sure to let me know if/when you want to sell it as it looks like something I can use.

At this point I am gearing for the 4L80E all the way with the TCI controller. Thanks for the technical input Steve.

[myclone]

Like anything else, there are tips and tricks to make the entire TCI controller experience flawless. I'll be happy to share those tips and tricks with anyone who is trying to tune their controller. Just give me a call.

I just finished looking over the software and install instructions on the TCI unit that arrived this AM ( :woot: ) so if/when I can find the time to actually install it I may just give you a ring if you have a minute or two to spare should I get stuck or fail miserably at tuning it.

[Steve Chryssos]

Anytime. Send me an email with some contact innfo and I'll reply with all of my super secret "batphone" numbers.

[Lethal Injection]

Lethal,
Sound trick and well thought out. Be sure to let me know if/when you want to sell it as it looks like something I can use.

At this point I am gearing for the 4L80E all the way with the TCI controller. Thanks for the technical input Steve.

I send you a PM.

You will love the TCI controller. If you get a triple disc converter you can lock-up the converter WOT. Shift points where ever you want them in any gear. I really like it. Now if the trans would just be 100 lbs. lighter!! :rolleyes:

[Steve Chryssos]

If you get a triple disc converter you can lock-up the converter WOT.

I have yet to try it yet, but I want to install a multi disc converter so that I can stay locked up across the ENTIRE rpm range. Well, almost the entire range. From stall to WOT on accel and down to almost idle on decel. The hard part would be determining proper converter diameter. As I envision it in my mind, a compromise would be made: Bigqer dia to maintain momentum during low rpm off idle "chugging". And a smaller dia to spin up faster.

A user selectable, direct drive automatic transmission. :hmm:

I can't do that now because I would burn up the tiny little half inch wide friction surface taht was designed for high momentum/low load situations.

[DeltaT]

I lock up the converter under WOT at any speed above 45. I haven't tested this at the strip, but I'm having no problems on hard street runs. Had it up to 145 so far. Converter is a Hughes 2800 stall lockup.

Can anyone think of a reason why I shouldn't lock up under WOT? Just makes sense to me to eliminate slippage. I've had people tell me I'm losing torque by doing this, but they can't tell me why.

Jim

[Cheatin'Chad]

The 2004r ifr built properly can withstand the massive abuse 10 second Buick GNs can dish out so it can work.
That being said I wholeheartedly believe the 4l80/85e to be a more durable transmission that would be able to withstand the prolonged abuse put to it by a car geared more toward the pro-touring set than the short stints of power application seen ina drag car.
Alot of people are scared of the price/complexity of tuning a fully electronic transmission. I would suggest you try as hard as possible to overcome these obstacles because few tramsmissions work better than a GM transmission that is tuned properly for your specific application.
Being able to limit TQ depending on a multitude of conditions and shift based on TPS,speed,RPM among other things is a boon to the demanding enthusiast.

good luck with your project!