Dse front subframe or stock with upgrades for 69 Firebird?

[Afflicted1]

Just starting to seriously plan out and begin building my 69 Firebird, and want to get some input from you guys here.

Car currently has 4 wheel manual drum brakes, 14 inch wheels, bias ply tires, and stock everything suspension wise. Most of it is 48 years old so it's going to be total replacement and upgrade everything either way. The question is which option is the better choice....

A. DSE front subframe with rack and pinion, wilwood 6p brakes, double adjustable coilovers, etc.

B. Stock subframe with DSE, speedtech, or equivalent tubular a arms, double adjustable coilovers, roll bars, same wilwood brakes.

I guess the real question is there that much of a difference between the aftermarket subframe to warrant the higher initial cost over keeping the stock subframe and replacing everything around it?

The goal with the vehicle is to have a real nice, fast driving car that would maybe someday see a track day for fun. I'd like to drive the car and do Pikes peak, tail of the dragon, etc.. That said, I'd also like to do this on a budget. I'm not opposed to dropping some good coin on quality parts, it's important to do things the right way.

The plan is currently to use mostly parts ive accumulated throughout the years, but some wont quite work for a pro touring car build. That's mostly later in the build. Thanks in advance.

[DT69Cam]

A stock subframe with tubular A arms would be just fine IMHO for your needs. You could use that extra cash on other goodies. Just my .02

[rocketrod]

A stock subframe with tubular A arms would be just fine IMHO for your needs. You could use that extra cash on other goodies. Just my .02
X2. Just make sure you total up all the cost to mod a stock sub before you buy. I was in your shoes 10 years ago and nodded the the stock sub. I have close to $4,500 invested not including brakes.

[dhutton]

If you can swing it go DSE. You will not regret it. I’ve got an upgraded factory sub in my wife’s convertible. No comparison to the AME sub I had in my 69 Firebird. Will not do that again.

Don

[rickpaw]

It all depends on the conditions of your stock subframe. Like rocketrod said, if you need to rebuild everything and repair the rusted out frame, be sure to add up all the costs. If your old frame needed everything, then maybe it's more cost effective to go aftermarket.

[badazz81z28]

Yup, best to price it all out then decide. You'll be surprised to see a DSE frame isn't that much more money then a fully dressed stock subframe. Not to mention the DSE design has a lot to offer over the stock frame. Just bite the bullet.

[SD67]

It really depends on how much of the stock frame rehab that you can do yourself and your timeline. If you can do it yourself and wait for the parts to come up on the forums second hand then maybe you can save enough to justify going with the stock subframe. Otherwise, just order the full subframe and start with a great foundation.

[Afflicted1]

Wow, thanks for all the responses so quickly. I'm not sure what type of shape the front sub is in. I know that the last time it was on the road was 2000, and the rear mounts and such were soft and bendable. I've had the car garaged since I bought it in 1994, but it has spent it's life in the Midwest so I'm not expecting it to be in great shape. I also just noticed that many of the sponsors on this site have nice black Friday specials that I just missed. The rear suspension will be built first, so I have some time for the next sale to roll around.

Here's a little more info on the car. https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/127231-New-member-here-bear-with-me-being-a-noob?p=1251376#post1251376

[jasonsnova]

after seeing how my car handles I think anyone would be happy with ridetech

[65 drop top]

I'm building a 55 Chevy now which is a full frame car. But after pricing out steering, a arms, springs, sway bars, etc. etc it really only cost about 5 grand more to go with a new full chassis. Which on a 55 is a HUGE upgrade. Not to say you can't build a nice stock sub frame, but price it out including every nut and bolt and you may not be as far away from the DSE subframe as you think.

[csouth]

Just starting to seriously plan out and begin building my 69 Firebird, and want to get some input from you guys here.

Car currently has 4 wheel manual drum brakes, 14 inch wheels, bias ply tires, and stock everything suspension wise. Most of it is 48 years old so it's going to be total replacement and upgrade everything either way. The question is which option is the better choice....

A. DSE front subframe with rack and pinion, wilwood 6p brakes, double adjustable coilovers, etc.

B. Stock subframe with DSE, speedtech, or equivalent tubular a arms, double adjustable coilovers, roll bars, same wilwood brakes.

I guess the real question is there that much of a difference between the aftermarket subframe to warrant the higher initial cost over keeping the stock subframe and replacing everything around it?

The goal with the vehicle is to have a real nice, fast driving car that would maybe someday see a track day for fun. I'd like to drive the car and do Pikes peak, tail of the dragon, etc.. That said, I'd also like to do this on a budget. I'm not opposed to dropping some good coin on quality parts, it's important to do things the right way.

The plan is currently to use mostly parts ive accumulated throughout the years, but some wont quite work for a pro touring car build. That's mostly later in the build. Thanks in advance.

As stated above, let price be you're deciding factor because you can have a fun car with both. Just using Speedtech as a comparison because that's who you mentioned.

For the price of the DSE subframe with double adjustables($8800), you can get the Speedtech GT kit with ViKing dbl adjustables, Torque arm for the rear ($4800). You could add a rear housing with the brackets welded as an upgrade($1500) and add the ATS spindles($1300) and be close to the same when all done.

Me, I'd rather have my front and rear suspension accounted for and call it good... Just my 2 cents....

[TheJDMan]

After you add up all the time and preparation that will be required to use the stock subframe you will find the cost between your two choices will be surprisingly close. I started with a plan to keep my stock sub but as I started adding up the cost the DSE looked better and better. At some point I decided to go with the DSE sub and have not regretted the decision. I was also able to sell the stock sub locally on CL for $500. There are pros and cons to both options. If you decide to go the stock route you need to contact Rod Prouty and get the real story on how to make the stock sub work. BTW, the Tail of the Dragon is AWESOME!

147237

[CSG]

For me it worked out to 3k more to do the dse sub vs keeping the stock one and "doing it up". I choose to go dse. I would suggest using one manufacturer for front and rear like mentioned above. If going speedtech i would not be considering that cheaper sub though. Get their extreme one if you go that route. I heavily considered it as i like their torque arm but the dse was cheaper and the shock package is well developed.

[icemanrd19]

Go dse, stock c6 z06 brakes, single adjustable shocks, and never look back. Those that are saying a stock subframe with mods is close to the dse subframe are crazy. It's a huge difference. The simplicity of a dse subframe as far as fit, finish, and performance is amazing

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Where do you live? If you are near dallas texas I'll give you a ride in each .

[Afflicted1]

It really depends on how much of the stock frame rehab that you can do yourself and your timeline. If you can do it yourself and wait for the parts to come up on the forums second hand then maybe you can save enough to justify going with the stock subframe. Otherwise, just order the full subframe and start with a great foundation.

I won't personally be doing any frame mods, metal fab, welding etc.. my brother in law is the guy doing all that for me, it's all beyond my skill level. That being said, I plan on learning a lot through this process. Time isn't a issue, the car hasn't run in almost 2 decades. I'm patient, lol.


As stated above, let price be you're deciding factor because you can have a fun car with both. Just using Speedtech as a comparison because that's who you mentioned.

For the price of the DSE subframe with double adjustables($8800), you can get the Speedtech GT kit with ViKing dbl adjustables, Torque arm for the rear ($4800). You could add a rear housing with the brackets welded as an upgrade($1500) and add the ATS spindles($1300) and be close to the same when all done.

Me, I'd rather have my front and rear suspension accounted for and call it good... Just my 2 cents....

The rear suspension plan is a narrowed 8.8" 3.23 gears, moser or strange axels, big ford ends, 4p wilwoods, and a homemade 4 link that my brother in law is going to fab up.


For me it worked out to 3k more to do the dse sub vs keeping the stock one and "doing it up". I choose to go dse. I would suggest using one manufacturer for front and rear like mentioned above. If going speedtech i would not be considering that cheaper sub though. Get their extreme one if you go that route. I heavily considered it as i like their torque arm but the dse was cheaper and the shock package is well developed.
I didn't plan on a torque arm, I'm not really sure I need one with a 4 link. Is this a case of one instead of the other, or is there a need for both?


Go dse, stock c6 z06 brakes, single adjustable shocks, and never look back. Those that are saying a stock subframe with mods is close to the dse subframe are crazy. It's a huge difference. The simplicity of a dse subframe as far as fit, finish, and performance is amazing

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Where do you live? If you are near dallas texas I'll give you a ride in each .

I want to go with a double adjustable shock due to some drag race use, yet still want to handle well for road use as well. I know its an identity crisis, I won't be cracking off awesome 60ft times with big roll bars and low profile tires and big wheels, but I'm going to try to have the best of both worlds if at all possible.

I'm from the far south suburbs of Chicago. Thanks for the offer, I'd love to see firsthand how these cars feel on the road. I dont know anyone who has a PT car, haven't been to any events or car shows related to the scene. I do attend PRI every year, and a handful of NMRA events as well.

[icemanrd19]

Do ypurself a favor. Wait till goodguys is in your area. Go ride with some of the autocross guys. People like Brett at ridetech, Brian finch and Kyle with dse, and I'm sure other manufactures will be there that will be more than happy to give you a ride. Not to mention there are plenty of other people there that are willing to help.

[csouth]

If you're doing 4 link, you wouldn't have to do the torque arm.

2 things I would say is: 1. never forget your intended purpose for the vehicle and 2. don't let us guys on the internet spend your money.

[sandiegocamaro]

Go dse, stock c6 z06 brakes, single adjustable shocks, and never look back. Those that are saying a stock subframe with mods is close to the dse subframe are crazy. It's a huge difference. The simplicity of a dse subframe as far as fit, finish, and performance is amazing

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Where do you live? If you are near dallas texas I'll give you a ride in each .

Too bad I'm not closer to Dallas! If anyone has their Camaro near Fresno, please PM me.
Also, if you have aftermarket seats or seat mods done. I'm looking for options.

[icemanrd19]

Stuff like this is the reason I went with a entire subframe from dse

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/127037-1969-Camaro-TruTurn-Center-link-Hitting-Oil-Pan

[icemanrd19]

Enjoy

https://www.facebook.com/detroitspeedinc/videos/2332523250106544/

[simon455]

I did up a stock sub, used all ridetech set up. Needed and wanted to fit a lsa engine with original accessory drive (low mount denso ac compressor low mount alternator) and oil pan as close in capacity to what the lsa came with in a Zl1 and factory, 2" cowl hood to close. Was no point of cutting up 8k frame as no one offered a sub nor complete frame to fit my needs. A lot cutting and fabricating was required. If I had to pay someone to do this it will probably surpass the price of a new sub.

[Rod]

just a few questions?
what is the end purpose for the car? local autocross 2-3 times a year, Optima events with us and 10 + events a season?
what is the overall budget?
if selecting a new sub frame are you happy with what that company offers as a rear end solution and what is there support for you when you finish, what is your honest skill level to tune a race oriented sub frame and what is that frames total cost, (IE) does that sub require special headers, oil pan, Steering linkage, special steering pumps, what transmission crossmembers do they offer and is the trans you want in that support build
I'm happy to walk you through any decisions you have, I have raced for several years and worked and driven for many suspension companies over the last 20 years

[ra11ysport]

Here's a thought how about a Speedtech protouring front subframe for around 4500 and a Speedtech TArm for what 2400 there abouts. It's a track proven setup that will comfortabley fit a 275 up front. Most of this is way over kill for 75% of us. So for the price of dse front subframe you could have killer front and rear setup. When it's all done your only going to notice your sway bar coilovers and brakes. You will never benifet from Z06 inspired suspension unless your building an all out race inspired car like Speedtech builds. Spend your money wisely.

[icemanrd19]

All this taking is making me want to autocross again lol. My suspension is limited to my tires. Need to upgrade the old ps2.

Again if you don't have to buy now wait and ride in someone's car. Buy what you can afford but save longer so you don't buy junk. Southwest airlines ticket is cheap compared to making the wrong purchase. Come to dallas and I'll give you a ride in my car, visit gas monkey etc

[icemanrd19]

If you can wait till March. Flights are usually $200 to $300 max

https://www.good-guys.com/slsn-2018

[Afflicted1]

just a few questions?
what is the end purpose for the car? local autocross 2-3 times a year, Optima events with us and 10 + events a season?
what is the overall budget?
if selecting a new sub frame are you happy with what that company offers as a rear end solution and what is there support for you when you finish, what is your honest skill level to tune a race oriented sub frame and what is that frames total cost, (IE) does that sub require special headers, oil pan, Steering linkage, special steering pumps, what transmission crossmembers do they offer and is the trans you want in that support build
I'm happy to walk you through any decisions you have, I have raced for several years and worked and driven for many suspension companies over the last 20 years

The end purpose is to build a car that will be the most fun, and versatile. It will mostly be a street car, not a daily driver although dependability is incredibly important. Drag strip a couple times a year, maybe down the road an optima event of some sort. Its probably going to be a couple years before the car is done, my kid is starting college next fall, so I'll have some extra time to put in on labor.

Budget is in good shape, I don't really want to put it on here (wife) lol. I know building a pro touring car is pricey, and I plan on doing without a lot of the high dollar dress up stuff in favor of building a rock solid ride.

Skills of tuning a race oriented subframe.. none.
My builder is highly skilled at drag race setups, but we're both willing to learn.
I also have zero fabrication or welding skills, zero body and paint skills. Any fab work can easily be done by my builder, he's done roll cages, 4 links, body, paint, tube chassis, and engine building.

[ra11ysport]

The end purpose is to build a car that will be the most fun, and versatile. It will mostly be a street car, not a daily driver although dependability is incredibly important. Drag strip a couple times a year, maybe down the road an optima event of some sort. Its probably going to be a couple years before the car is done, my kid is starting college next fall, so I'll have some extra time to put in on labor.

Budget is in good shape, I don't really want to put it on here (wife) lol. I know building a pro touring car is pricey, and I plan on doing without a lot of the high dollar dress up stuff in favor of building a rock solid ride.

Skills of tuning a race oriented subframe.. none.
My builder is highly skilled at drag race setups, but we're both willing to learn.
I also have zero fabrication or welding skills, zero body and paint skills. Any fab work can easily be done by my builder, he's done roll cages, 4 links, body, paint, tube chassis, and engine building.


It's easy to get sucked into the protouring thing, but it's a big money sport. Larry Woo even said that these cars are well sorted race cars. Just about everything is custom made for these guys. Wether it's Danny Pops Lingenfelter power plant or a fully custom build from dse or Speedtech. Not to mention the jri coilovers going around we can't buy what they really have cause there custom taylored to them. Be realistic in your build unless you have 250k then build it to drive and enjoy. Good luck you'll need it!

[Afflicted1]

It's easy to get sucked into the protouring thing, but it's a big money sport. Larry Woo even said that these cars are well sorted race cars. Just about everything is custom made for these guys. Wether it's Danny Pops Lingenfelter power plant or a fully custom build from dse or Speedtech. Not to mention the jri coilovers going around we can't buy what they really have cause there custom taylored to them. Be realistic in your build unless you have 250k then build it to drive and enjoy. Good luck you'll need it!

Lol, I have ZERO desire to run a circuit or race at a competitive level. That's definitely not in my budget. My builder raced for years and i know the time, money and dedication it takes. Doing this is a hobby. I've had hobbies that have turned into more than hobbies, and they just end up being more like work than fun. Being realistic in this build is the goal.

[Mean 69]

My two cents, what you will get in terms of advice on such a forum is based 85% plus on brand loyalty, and less than 10% on objective facts (let's call them informed opinions). In terms of the DSE stuff - which I do not run but several very close to me do - it's a nice setup, but not perfect. It could greatly benefit from an improved shock/spring motion ratio, you need to run their headers and all other accessories to insure it will package correctly, and it is very difficult to service a few items that would be a significant burden for a novice backyard enthusiast (replacing the steering rack, for instance, or swapping springs for a new rate). The pro's are numerous, DSE's product quality is extremely good, their customer service is superb, and their fan base is fiercely loyal - if someone runs their stuff you probably will never hear about anything negative from them.

Frankly, the main benefit from running an aftermarket frame is marginally (at best) improved rigidity, swapping out the steering box with a rack, and in some cases improved access to items such as headers, etc. If you are 'core, which it sounds as if you are not (no offense, please), a serious enthusiast would change items on every single subframe I have seen on the market, none of them are frankly as good as they ideally could be (that's going to piss people off but I come from an informed position). For what you describe, in all seriousness you could run any of the very capable (albeit tuning ability limited) packages from Hotchkis, DSE, RideTech, etc, etc, etc, and have a car that you would love to drive, wouldn't break the bank in relative terms, and would perform better than you think it probably would. The market is really well supported in terms of installing great brakes onto OEM style spindles, etc. A lot better than a decade ago. If you have a huge ego and wallet to match, an aftermarket frame is still an excellent step up in basic performance, and increased ability to tune. If you are very hard core and want to keep with the top of the classes, then anything you buy in a catalog won't get you there these days without additional attention, which could be small to extreme depending on the frame/route you intend to go.

I love the idea of a ride along. It is a very great way to see how these cars actually handle. Be warned however, many of the track and autocross setups are NOT representative of a well mannered street drive car. In order to deal with some of the nasty's, the tune on many/most of these cars will beat the crap out of you on the street. Granted these cars are all toys in the grand scheme, but something not to overlook if you like long drives with the wife on real roads.

Good luck, and do a LOT of research as you have started, and enjoy the hobby.
Mark